------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: The Third World Date: Tue Mar 07 06:00:27 CST 1995 Message number: 1 Reply to message number: unavailable The Third World is only in the news when there's a group of starving refugees that the media deigns to cover. But there's more to it than that. This is a base to discuss the part of world we never sem to put much thought into. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fred Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Tue May 23 18:22:39 CDT 1995 Message number: 2 Reply to message number: 1 F> It all goes back to the saying, "if you give him/her a fish, he/she will eat F> for a day...if you teach him/her how to fish, they will eat for a lifetime!! F> if we are to help out 3rd wd. countries we should empower them so that they There's a certain logic to that ... but neither analogy is close to what we're doing to the third world. What we (the United States and other Western countries and agencies) are doing is giving them money to build logging roads in exchange for their pledge to stop spending money on social programs. This makes it easier for multinational corporatins to come in and exploit their resoirces, while the average standard of living of most of the people in that country suffer as a result. is it any wonder that the pacific rim is doing so well, while Central America is a haven for drug-runners and corruption? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fred Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Tue May 23 18:36:24 CDT 1995 Message number: 3 Reply to message number: 1 F> have a sense of pride and want to work, not just take handouts!!! the same F> thing goes for the people on welfare(not to get off of the subject). I agree with you. In the best of all possible worlds there would be proper education and enough jobs so that welfare recipients could find jobs and get off the programs. F> It all goes back to the saying, "if you give him/her a fish, he/she will eat F> for a day...if you teach him/her how to fish, they will eat for a lifetime!! Most 3rd world countries were doing pretty well. They knew how to catch the fish in their own homes and survive there. Then the Europeans came and changed everything. Their customs weren't right. Their religions weren't right. The way they gathered their food and ate was not right. The Europeans took away from them a long-developed way of living in sometimes fragile places. In exchange, they were expected to adopt the culture and habits of Europeans, which were often not suited to live in those places. An example is what is going on in the rain forest. People who used to gather food and survive with primitive farming methods now are expected to join the world economy and farm the european way. They have to burn the fruit and nut trees they used to survive on to make poor pasteur land for cattle for tha world market. Then after about 2 years the pasture is exhausted because it was thin,poor soil in the first place. It seems to me that those 3rd world people had it right and we should value that. Since we didn't, we have a moral obligation to help other people get a start. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SIGNAL MAN To: FROGGY Subject: Re: Guatemala Date: Thu May 25 07:36:24 CDT 1995 Message number: 4 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Froggy to Signal Man <=- Fr> I don't know whether this is also factor in Guatemaula, but Fr> in out own countrya lot of "roads" are being built so they can sell Fr> the timber out of the National Forests. What kinds of "agricultural Fr> products" are they selling? Sugar, fruit, coffee, and yes hardwood. All on the backs of the poor for the sole gain of the folgers, doles, etc of the world... ... Catch the Blue Wave! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SIGNAL MAN To: DAEDALUS RISING Subject: Re: Guatemala Date: Thu May 25 07:36:25 CDT 1995 Message number: 5 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Daedalus Rising to Signal Man <=- DR> The old Utne Reader had a great ist of the 10 most under-reported DR> stories of the year. One of them was that prior to the collapse of the DR> Somali government, several U.S. oil companies had gained acccess land DR> in Somalia to conduct oil drilling expolartion. DR> So, were we *really there to feed starving people? Well stated, we (the good old USA) rarely do anything anywhere in the world under the guise of helping the locals in whatever crisis is happening we are there, and using the "PR" of assistance, to actually help our own corporate entities (whichever needs it) to gain something they couldn't or wouldn't due to a difficult political situation, the "PR" associated with a "rescue" mission greatly covers true intent... ... Catch the Blue Wave! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SIGNAL MAN To: FRED Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Thu May 25 07:36:29 CDT 1995 Message number: 6 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Fred to All <=- Fr> It all goes back to the saying, "if you give him/her a fish, he/she Fr> will eat for a day...if you teach him/her how to fish, they will eat Fr> for a lifetime!!" if we are to help out 3rd wd. countries we should Fr> empower them so that they have a sense of pride and want to work, not Fr> just take handouts!!! the same thing goes for the people on Fr> welfare(not to get off of the subject). Oh my, I must be going off the deep end, I agree with you re: the teach how to fish statement. The only way to truly help someone is to teach them, but forcing people to work in demeaning jobs will not foster a sense of pride and anyone with an IQ over 50. Meaningful work will, and that means finding and helping people with difficulties (what ever they may be) to obtain meaningful work as well. I really don't think most people want to be on welfare... ... Catch the Blue Wave! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Signal Man Subject: Re: Guatemala Date: Thu May 25 08:20:02 CDT 1995 Message number: 7 Reply to message number: 4 SM> Fr> the timber out of the National Forests. What kinds of "agricultural SM> Fr> products" are they selling? SM> SM> Sugar, fruit, coffee, and yes hardwood. All on the backs of the poor I know about the other products. I was being sarcastic about calling it road building when the real purpose is to harvest the timber. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ZWEITER HOYF To: Froggy Subject: Re: Infant mortality Date: Fri May 26 01:36:29 CDT 1995 Message number: 8 Reply to message number: unavailable F> F> ZH> Another option (since refunds don't carry any interest) would be to not F> ZH> the tax withheld but put the equivalent in a savings account, and withd F> F> I was told that with the change in the law, it was no longer allow F> to calin 0 exemptions. Maybe just an employer with opinions of her own. You are free to choose the exemptions you want, but there is some cockamamie law that if you're refund or the amount you owe is more than x number of dolla there is an additional charge. But I think that those eligible for EIC are exempt from that. Before we were married my wife was a single parent and had no taxes taken out except for FICA and always received an EIC credit refund of around $1000.00. I think the employer should check her instruction booklet. --- þ NFX V1.2 [Freeware] Graphic Offline Mail Reader. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ZWEITER HOYF To: Signal Man Subject: Re: Guatemala Date: Fri May 26 01:36:30 CDT 1995 Message number: 9 Reply to message number: unavailable SM> SM> There is much more I could post and will over the comming weeks if you'd SM> like, the sad part about stuff like this is the projects seem like we, fo SM> once, are doing something good, but as usual we are only helping american SM> interests at the expense of the locals... SM> SM> Hope this helped explain my feelings a little... :) Please post more, because I think that Americans are sadly misinformed and think that Guatemala's government is a good friend to have. Like the National Guardsman who came back from Guatemala and after the brouhaha about Toricelli's investigation said "I was there for three months and the people didn't seem to be too upset with their government." HELLO! Did he ever leave the friggin' base? --- þ NFX V1.2 [Freeware] Graphic Offline Mail Reader. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ZWEITER HOYF To: Fred Subject: 3rd world Date: Fri May 26 01:36:31 CDT 1995 Message number: 10 Reply to message number: unavailable F> It all goes back to the saying, "if you give him/her a fish, he/she will ea F> for a day...if you teach him/her how to fish, they will eat for a lifetime! F> if we are to help out 3rd wd. countries we should empower them so that they F> have a sense of pride and want to work, not just take handouts!!! the same F> thing goes for the people on welfare(not to get off of the subject). Except for military aid and emergency aid, most of the foreign aid given to 3rd world countries is money used to teach people how to fish. The Peace Corps especially was a program that taught people how to more effectivly manage their land and grow more food. --- þ NFX V1.2 [Freeware] Graphic Offline Mail Reader. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Zweiter Hoyf Subject: Re: Infant mortality Date: Fri May 26 03:11:37 CDT 1995 Message number: 11 Reply to message number: 8 ZH> I think the employer should check her instruction booklet. ZH> I think so too, but a new-hire just filling out the company's hiring papers and peeig in a cup is in an awkward position to tell them so. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Zweiter Hoyf Subject: Re: Infant mortality Date: Fri May 26 04:26:17 CDT 1995 Message number: 12 Reply to message number: 8 ZH> But I think that those eligible for EIC are exempt from that. Before we we ZH> married my wife was a single parent and had no taxes taken out except for F ZH> and always received an EIC credit refund of around $1000.00. ZH> I think the employer should check her instruction booklet. I've heard that in the "New and Improved (C)" federal budget, the earned income tax credit will also be on the chopping block. Every day that passes, I feel the lure of the Republican agenda. It calls out to me on sleepless nights like an iron gavel to the face. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Infant mortality Date: Fri May 26 05:29:01 CDT 1995 Message number: 13 Reply to message number: 12 DR> I've heard that in the "New and Improved (C)" federal budget, the earned DR> income tax credit will also be on the chopping block. Every day that passe Of course. The EIC is designed to help low-income working people, especially single moms. They have to cut THAT so they can give tax breaks to those who have more than $200,000/year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FRED To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Fri May 26 11:38:34 CDT 1995 Message number: 14 Reply to message number: 2 F> It all goes back to the saying, "if you give him/her a fish, he/she will eat F> for a day...if you teach him/her how to fish, they will eat for a lifetime!! F> if we are to help out 3rd wd. countries we should empower them so that they DR> DR> There's a certain logic to that ... but neither analogy is close to what DR> we're doing to the third world. What we (the United States and other Wester DR> countries and agencies) are doing is giving them money to build logging roa DR> in exchange for their pledge to stop spending money on social programs. Thi DR> makes it easier for multinational corporatins to come in and exploit their DR> resoirces, while the average standard of living of most of the people in th DR> country suffer as a result. you seem very educated on this subject... i was just making a simple generalization...it does not apply to every situation... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FRED To: Signal Man Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Fri May 26 11:44:33 CDT 1995 Message number: 15 Reply to message number: 6 SM> how to fish statement. The only way to truly help someone is to teach them SM> but forcing people to work in demeaning jobs will not foster a sense of SM> pride and anyone with an IQ over 50. Meaningful work will, and that means SM> finding and helping people with difficulties (what ever they may be) to SM> obtain meaningful work as well. What is meaningful work??? that term is subjective.... it is an opinion... SM> I really don't think most people want to be on welfare... AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH: wrong answer.....most,(most!) of the people on welefare want to be on...that way they can complain about what is going on around them....and not do anything about it, because "Big Brother" is holding their hand through life.... come on....lets take some responsibility for our own lives!!!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FRED To: Zweiter Hoyf Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Fri May 26 11:46:56 CDT 1995 Message number: 16 Reply to message number: 10 F> It all goes back to the saying, "if you give him/her a fish, he/she will ea F> for a day...if you teach him/her how to fish, they will eat for a lifetime! F> if we are to help out 3rd wd. countries we should empower them so that they F> have a sense of pride and want to work, not just take handouts!!! the same F> thing goes for the people on welfare(not to get off of the subject). ZH> ZH> Except for military aid and emergency aid, most of the foreign aid given ZH> to 3rd world countries is money used to teach people how to fish. ZH> The Peace Corps especially was a program that taught people how to more ZH> effectivly manage their land and grow more food. yes, but a lot of the money going to those countries is meaningless....there is no time spent on where it should go(and how it should be U–ãø+ƒÂ~?it is these liberals(dem.) htat just want to throw money at the problem so it will go away.....not gonna happen! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SIGNAL MAN To: FROGGY Subject: Re: Guatemala Date: Fri May 26 11:59:39 CDT 1995 Message number: 17 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Froggy to Signal Man <=- Fr> I know about the other products. I was being sarcastic about Fr> calling it road building when the real purpose is to harvest the timber. I know we tend to concentrate on the rain forests but let's not forget that we are doing nasty things to banana pickers, coffee harvesters and others in the name of cheap prices and huge corporate profits... ... Catch the Blue Wave! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fred Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Fri May 26 13:28:47 CDT 1995 Message number: 18 Reply to message number: 15 F> F> AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH: wrong answer.....most,(most!) of the people on welefare wa F> to be on...that way they can complain about what is going on around AHHHHHHHHH! Wrong attitude! Where do you get your information? I was on welfare myself and hated every minute of it. Most people do. There is no hand-holding, it is a slap in the face. Then people like you surface and slap again. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fred Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Fri May 26 14:55:56 CDT 1995 Message number: 19 Reply to message number: 15 F> What is meaningful work??? that term is subjective.... it is an opinion... True, it is a subjective term. To me, meaningful work means work that will teach a person job skills that can be applied to other jobs. Picking up garbage along the highway, for example, would not be very meaningful work. F> AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH: wrong answer.....most,(most!) of the people on welefare wa F> to be on...that way they can complain about what is going on around F> them....and not do anything about it, because "Big Brother" is holding their F> hand through life.... Most people on welfare do not want to be on it, in my experience. F> come on....lets take some responsibility for our own lives!!!!!! Why can't we take responsibility for the ups and downs of the free market system we embrace in this country? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: REPORTER To: FROGGY Subject: Re: Infant mortality Date: Sat May 27 11:53:04 CDT 1995 Message number: 20 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Froggy to Reporter <=- Fr> Because the education, housing, police protection, and other Fr> advantages they had has enabled them to earn that knid of money. And Fr> because there is not enough money through a flat tax to do the things Fr> this country needs. If someone won a contest to a prestigious Fr> university and was thus enabled to hold a high-paying job, how does Fr> this make him more entitled to more disposable income than someone who Fr> did not win a prize? Disposable income is the question. Some Fr> people spend 100% of their income just providing basics of food, Fr> clothing, and shelter. Others can live extravagantly on 50% of their Fr> income. Which one can most afford to support government? What is Fr> fair? Have you considered that maybe if (on the average) people didn't have to give the government 1 out of every 4 dollars they make, that maybe that would be an incentive to work harder, and, since they would now have more money, they'd pay more money even on a flat tax system? Why should the rich pay a higher *percentage* than the middle class? Being penalized for achievement doesn't promote job creation. If a guy owns a small business, for instance, an electronic repair shop, and instead of making $30,000/yr working for a large company, he makes $50,000 a year, why should he pay a higher percentage than anyone else? He hasn't done anything wrong. Aren't penalites usually given to those who break the law? I ask you again. Why should the "rich" be required to pay a higher percentage? If they haven't broken any laws, then explain why they should be penalized. ... The richest man is the man who has nothing. (Old Indian proverb) ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: REPORTER To: DAEDALUS RISING Subject: Re: Infant mortality Date: Sat May 27 11:53:05 CDT 1995 Message number: 21 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Daedalus Rising to Reporter <=- DR> Fairness? There is no fairness in tax policy. There will always be DR> people and groups who get the shaft. Tax policy can be made more fair, DR> however, when the people who have benefitted most from the American DR> economy and the "American Dream" pay a higher percentage of their DR> income to ensure that others will have the same opportunities that they DR> had. Why? Because they can better afford it than a person living with DR> less luxuries. There it is again... when a liberal sees inequity, the solution is always to make everyone assume the lowest common denominator. Why shouldn't the tax code be fair? The 17% flat tax proposed by republicans (assuming no loopholes) would make taxes so much simpler. If a no-loophole flat tax was enacted, and assuming the $500 per child tax credit is retained, the tax form might look something like this: The Internal Revenue Service 199X Income Tax Line 1: What was your gross income from 1999, after subtracting $25,000? _____.__ Line 2: How many children (birth-17) do you have? ________ Line 3: Take 17% of line 1 (Line 1 X 0.17). _____.__ Line 4: Take line 2 X 500. -_____.00 Line 5: Total taxes: (Line 3-Line 4) _____.__ If your bill (line 5) is negative, you are entitled to a refund. If it's positive, please send appropriate payment along with this form. If taxes were that easy, wouldn't less people gripe about them? The rich wouldn't, because they'd feel that taxes were finally fair. (At least the honest ones wouldn't.) The poor would like it because they'd get a refund if they made less than $25k and had (a) kid(s). Why would this be bad? ... Criminals have no place in civilized society. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THROCKMORTON To: FRED Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Sat May 27 13:11:01 CDT 1995 Message number: 22 Reply to message number: unavailable F>What is meaningful work??? that term is subjective.... it is an opinion... Meaningful work is a job that allows you to support yourself and your family in a modicum of comfort, and allows sufficient free time to relax and enjoy yourself. --- þ OLX 1.53 þ I may not be perfect, but parts of me are excellent. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THROCKMORTON To: FROGGY Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Sat May 27 13:11:02 CDT 1995 Message number: 23 Reply to message number: unavailable F>F> >F> AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH: wrong answer.....most,(most!) of the people on welefare >F> to be on...that way they can complain about what is going on around F> AHHHHHHHHH! Wrong attitude! Where do you get your information? I >was on welfare myself and hated every minute of it. Most people do. There >no hand-holding, it is a slap in the face. Then people like you surface and >slap again. I have no idea what the actual percentages are, but there are both types of people on welfare. The problem comes from the fact that they are treated identically by the system. --- þ OLX 1.53 þ I used to have a life, now I have a modem ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FRED To: Froggy Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Sat May 27 15:18:13 CDT 1995 Message number: 24 Reply to message number: 18 F> AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH: wrong answer.....most,(most!) of the people on welefare wa F> to be on...that way they can complain about what is going on around F> F> AHHHHHHHHH! Wrong attitude! Where do you get your information? I F> was on welfare myself and hated every minute of it. Most people do. There F> no hand-holding, it is a slap in the face. Then people like you surface and F> slap again. that is your situation....but you do not represent all of the people that are on welefare....remember, i said "MOST" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FRED To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Sat May 27 15:20:37 CDT 1995 Message number: 25 Reply to message number: 19 DR> Why can't we take responsibility for the ups and downs of the free market DR> system we embrace in this country? because it is human nature to want to kick a person when they are down, or walk over them, or walk past them....THAT IS THE WAY IT IS....and there will be no changing it! not from you, me, or anyone..... p.s. that is kind of sad, huh? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FRED To: Throckmorton Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Sat May 27 15:21:59 CDT 1995 Message number: 26 Reply to message number: 22 T> F>What is meaningful work??? that term is subjective.... it is an opinion... T> T> Meaningful work is a job that allows you to support yourself and your T> family in a modicum of comfort, and allows sufficient free time to relax T> and enjoy yourself. SUBJECTIVE.... that means that everyone has a different opinion....now i know yours....but others have different opinions... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Reporter Subject: Re: Infant mortality Date: Sat May 27 17:04:32 CDT 1995 Message number: 27 Reply to message number: 20 R> higher *percentage* than the middle class? Being penalized for achievement R> doesn't promote job creation. If a guy owns a small business, for instance R> an electronic repair shop, and instead of making $30,000/yr working for a I don't believe that the highest-paid people are being paid for achievement or that the highest-achievers are being paid fairly. The example you give of someone opening a small business is an example. If he actually earns $50,000/ year, much of it can be claimed as legitimate business expenses, and his total tax bite is much less. Personal income tax, that is. Small businesses like this have so many business taxes and expenses that it is nearly impossible to start a small business. I think this should be corrected. Meanwhile, big corporations have so many perks and tax advantages that smaller competing companies have no chance. For several years that I tracked it, Exxon claimed 0 income. And pays its CEO one of those outrageous salaries. Who do you think works harder, that CEO or your guy starting a new business earning $50,000? $50,000 is clearly middle class. %6 million is not. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Reporter Subject: Re: Infant mortality Date: Sat May 27 17:08:41 CDT 1995 Message number: 28 Reply to message number: 21 R> honest ones wouldn't.) The poor would like it because they'd get a refund R> if they made less than $25k and had (a) kid(s). Why would this be bad? Depends on how much less than 25K. MMost low-income jobs pay less than $6,000 a year. Even if you have no children to support it is easy to resent the person who has to pay 17% of $200,000. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Throckmorton Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Sat May 27 17:11:57 CDT 1995 Message number: 29 Reply to message number: 23 T> I have no idea what the actual percentages are, but there are both types T> of people on welfare. The problem comes from the fact that they are T> treated identically by the system. According to Carlson's figures on the state of Minnesota, 97% of AFDC recipients are on the program for less than two years. I was on longer than that because I kept taking jobs and losing them because of a disability. You're right. Everyone on the system is treated identically as though they were thieves. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fred Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Sat May 27 17:18:47 CDT 1995 Message number: 30 Reply to message number: 25 F> because it is human nature to want to kick a person when they are down, or F> walk over them, or walk past them....THAT IS THE WAY IT IS....and there will F> be no changing it! not from you, me, or anyone..... F> p.s. that is kind of sad, huh? I disagree. I have seen many people who extend a hand to help other people when they are down. I do myself, when I can. Just this morning a man really extended himself to help me out. The problem is that the helping people are not necessarily in the place where help is needed. I think it is kind of sad that so many people can't see the value of keeping government programs in place to fill this gap. Today I heard a reporter questioning Packwood about his support of block grants. She asked him if it was possible that 6-year olds would die because some state hadn't put the grant program in place to help. His answer: "There are 6-year olds dying now".. I think THAT is sad. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Reporter Subject: Re: Infant mortality Date: Sun May 28 16:52:13 CDT 1995 Message number: 31 Reply to message number: 21 R> There it is again... when a liberal sees inequity, the solution is always t R> make everyone assume the lowest common denominator. I would say that relying on greed and avarice as the driving force of an economy is appealing directly to the lowest common denominator. In America, after-tax income inequity is severe when compared to other industrialized nations. Of the twelve major industrialized nations (including Germany and Japan), America ranks tenth in after-tax income equity. What does a conservative see when he/she sees this inequity? R> The 17% flat tax proposed by republicans (assuming no R> loopholes) would make taxes so much simpler. The tax code should be made simpler, I agree. That does not mean that tax progressivity has to suffer as a result. There are far too many loopholes, which tend to nullify much of this "higher rate" that the wealthy pay anyways. Why is it that the 50s were a successful decade for American business and employees in general, when the tax rates on corporations and the wealthy were much higher than they are now? R> If your bill (line 5) is negative, you are entitled to a refund. If it's R> positive, please send appropriate payment along with this form. As I understand it now, the tax credit for children would not result in a refund. At most, it could be applied against taxes paid into the government. I could confusing this with the current child tax credit working its way through Congress, however. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fred Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Sun May 28 16:55:38 CDT 1995 Message number: 32 Reply to message number: 25 DR> Why can't we take responsibility for the ups and downs of the free market DR> system we embrace in this country? F> because it is human nature to want to kick a person when they are down, or F> walk over them, or walk past them....THAT IS THE WAY IT IS....and there will F> be no changing it! not from you, me, or anyone..... I don't believe that it is human nature to be cruel to other people. If it were, there would be no one that cared enough about their fellow man to donate their time and money to charity ... nor would there be many people willing to fight against injustice when they saw it. Yes, people can be cruel to each other. But I don't believe that this is human nature ... it is selfishness, and learned behaviour. At heart, Humans are social mammals. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG BROTHER To: FRED Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Sun May 28 18:38:13 CDT 1995 Message number: 33 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Fred to Daedalus Rising <=- Fr> because it is human nature to want to kick a person when they are Fr> down, or walk over them, or walk past them....THAT IS THE WAY IT Fr> IS....and there will be no changing it! not from you, me, or Human nature can be changed, but it is a hazardous endeavour. A strong leader must take it upon himself to find concensus and disempower the opposition in his effort to alter the less attractive aspects of humanity. ... Hope for the best, and it will never happen. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ZWEITER HOYF To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Infant mortality Date: Tue May 30 01:36:31 CDT 1995 Message number: 34 Reply to message number: unavailable DR> DR> I've heard that in the "New and Improved (C)" federal budget, the earned DR> income tax credit will also be on the chopping block. Every day that pass DR> I feel the lure of the Republican agenda. It calls out to me on sleepless DR> nights like an iron gavel to the face. DR> So much for earning your way out of welfare... In the May 28 Pioneer Press there was a table of the items added to the GOP budget compared to what's been removed... What's in: $1.4 Billion sugar price subsidies for big sugar farms. What's out: $1.6 Billion heating fuel subsidies for poor. What's in: $1.4 Billion tax break for oil drillers' "intangible expenses." What's out: $1.6 billion in subsidies for elderly, disabled. What's in: $700 million for alcohol fuel producers. What's out: $377 million for legal services for the poor. What's in: $400 million for business "entertainment" expenses. What's out: $350 million for national endowments for arts, humanities. What's in : $100 million in research for 14 big microchip firms. What's out: $281 million for tuition grants for national service volunteers. This from the Cato institute, a libertarian think tank. They have detailed 12 programs that will channel $87 billion into private businesses this year. Citizens for Tax Justice recently detailed 128 tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations. Closing those loopholes alone could balance the budget without killing any spending programs. Eliminating the tax break for makers of alcohol fuels (which benefits George Bush major contributor Archer-Daniels-Midland) could net the treasury $3.6 billion over 5 years. None dare call it corporate welfare. --- þ NFX V1.2 [Freeware] Graphic Offline Mail Reader. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ZWEITER HOYF To: Fred Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Tue May 30 01:36:32 CDT 1995 Message number: 35 Reply to message number: unavailable F> ø+ƒÂ~?it is these liberals(dem.) htat just want to throw money at the F> problem so it will go away.....not gonna happen! F> To counteract the conservatives(GOP) that just want to ignore the problems so so they will go away (except in their own district.) As a lobbyist, in this wonderful people's congress elected just last fall because the populace was sick of career politicians, you can't even get an audience without donating money to the campaign fund. After reaching the personal limit they are required to donate to the party. Alfonse D'Amato has solicited contributions from lobbyists while they had business before the Banking Committee, which he chairs. Many lobbyists reported in a recent survey that they receive fundraiser phone calls shortly before or after an appointment with a congressman or senator. Freshmen Republicans call and say "I'm having a an event Thursday. It's a thousand bucks. You should be buying two tickets. Who are you going to send? Not only was campaign reform not on the Contract With America, Gingrich has sa that it will not come before the floor this year, but next, conveniently durin an election year. No doubt it will be shouted down as a liberal idea such as 1994. Gingrich set the fundraising tone last October, flatly telling trade association executives that Republicans are going to win the House and Senate. "For anybody who's not on board now," he warned, "it's going to be the coldest two years in Washington." This from the man who in 1990 said "Congress is increasingly enmeshed in a system of corruption in which money is defeating and driving out citizen politics." Ranking Republicans were told by Gingrich and other GOP leaders that their futures depended on their persuading interest groups to give to the GOP. Incumbents in easy races were assigned as mentors to GOP challengers and asked to raise $60,000 for them. I am not saying that this is new to this congress, and I think the Dems have been as dirty as the Republicans. But with campaign rhetoric so hot and heavy on returning congress to the people, on term limits (which suddenly aren't so important now that Armey and Gingrich are in the ivory tower) and re-creating a citizen legislature, we changed the old boss for the new boss. At least for the majority of those who bothered to vote in 1994, they are getting a new boss that agrees with them (or so they think). It's all been a sham. We need campaign reform now. We need to be able to have a situation where anybody that believes strongly in what their vision for the country should be able to give their views to congress without feeling like their letters are thrown in the trash because there isn't a $1000 dollar check attached. Where a person can run for Congress or the legislature without havi to be a whore to campaign contributions first. When the 1996 election rolls around I will be in Wisconsin, but in Minnesota for Senate we will most likely have a choice between a man who is honest about campaign contributions and doesn't kowtow to the wealthy and a man who owns big lumberyards and hobnobs with the wealthy. Think about your vote, and which of those you are most likely to have access to when you want to say something about a bill on the floor. Do you Republican voters feel good about the current congress, or do you feel betrayed? --- þ NFX V1.2 [Freeware] Graphic Offline Mail Reader. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ZWEITER HOYF To: Fred Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Tue May 30 01:36:40 CDT 1995 Message number: 36 Reply to message number: unavailable F> F> AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH: wrong answer.....most,(most!) of the people on welefare w F> to be on...that way they can complain about what is going on around F> them....and not do anything about it, because "Big Brother" is holding thei F> hand through life.... F> come on....lets take some responsibility for our own lives!!!!!! F> How many people do you know on welfare? The ones I know don't want to be ther but also don't want their kids to starve or go without clothes. Until you can show me how we can achieve full employment for everyone, even th mentally ill and handicapped, at decent wages, you won't convince me that people want to be on welfare. Free market and unfettered economics allows companies to see human resources as just another inventory to be unloaded when times get tough. There has to be a safety net for those dumped. --- þ NFX V1.2 [Freeware] Graphic Offline Mail Reader. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ZWEITER HOYF To: Signal Man Subject: Re: Guatemala Date: Tue May 30 01:36:41 CDT 1995 Message number: 37 Reply to message number: unavailable SM> SM> I know we tend to concentrate on the rain forests but let's not forget SM> that we are doing nasty things to banana pickers, coffee harvesters and SM> others in the name of cheap prices and huge corporate profits... SM> The appeal of the Sandanistas was in land redistribution. In the 19th century Dole stole land from the natives of Nicaragua from the native population which had lived there for centuries. Sandino tried to win it back through revolution. The U.S. installed the Somoza regime after defeating Sandino. When Ortega sought U.S. help to defeat the Somoza's son, Anastasio, he was turned down and went to the Soviets (who saw a great opportunity to get into Central America.) The U.S. chose to prop Somoza again, even though we were aware of the National Guard's horrendous abuses. Now, having not learned our lesson, there we are still propping up the Guatemalan govt. which is just as horrendous as Somoza. --- þ NFX V1.2 [Freeware] Graphic Offline Mail Reader. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FRED To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Tue May 30 12:40:19 CDT 1995 Message number: 38 Reply to message number: 32 DR> I don't believe that it is human nature to be cruel to other people. If it DR> were, there would be no one that cared enough about their fellow man to don DR> their time and money to charity ... nor would there be many people willing DR> fight against injustice when they saw it. what are the underlying reasons why they help others???? is it to in result help themselves???? also, there are not "many peoply" that fight injustice....there are some...but mostly only in movies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FRED To: Zweiter Hoyf Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Tue May 30 12:43:17 CDT 1995 Message number: 39 Reply to message number: 35 ZH> Do you Republican voters feel good about the current congress, or do you fe ZH> betrayed? it is still up in the air... i need to see more to judge my fellow patriots in action... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fred Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Tue May 30 14:13:51 CDT 1995 Message number: 40 Reply to message number: 38 F> what are the underlying reasons why they help others???? is it to in result F> help themselves???? also, there are not "many peoply" that fight F> injustice....there are some...but mostly only in movies. I know many people who help others without intending to benefit from it themselves. For example, this past weekend I attended a meeting of Meals-on-Wheels volunteers. Most of them do not get anything by volunteering and in fact, provide transportation and buy the gas. Many movies have been made from the true lives of people who fight injustice. I'm sorry you are so jaded and have not had the opportunity to meet people like this. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Zweiter Hoyf Subject: Re: Infant mortality Date: Tue May 30 18:24:29 CDT 1995 Message number: 41 Reply to message number: 34 ZH> Citizens for Tax Justice recently detailed 128 tax breaks for the wealthy a ZH> corporations. Closing those loopholes alone could balance the budget witho ZH> killing any spending programs. Eliminating the tax break for makers of ZH> alcohol fuels (which benefits George Bush major contributor ZH> Archer-Daniels-Midland) could net the treasury $3.6 billion over 5 years. Unfortunately, the Democrats who were in power and the Republicans who are in power now are two sides of the same corrupt coin. My true hope is that Newt Gingrich's fundrasing tactics (give to the Republicans or it will be a cold day in Hell until we help you .. and don't give to the Democrats while you're at it either) will hopefully purge the Democratic party of a lot of this corporate special interest money. If there are enough people in Washington who manage to get on the news and tell the American peope about tax breaks like these, it will be a lot harder for the Congress to continue them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Zweiter Hoyf Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Tue May 30 18:28:52 CDT 1995 Message number: 42 Reply to message number: 35 ZH> It's all been a sham. We need campaign reform now. We need to be able to Agreed compltely. Too bad Wellstone's efforts last year were sabotaged by Gingrich. What I find interesting about the term limits craze amoung Republicans is this: is the fear of campaign and ethics reform so strong that they support term limits as a weak alternative to it? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fred Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Tue May 30 18:31:13 CDT 1995 Message number: 43 Reply to message number: 38 F> what are the underlying reasons why they help others???? is it to in result F> help themselves???? also, there are not "many peoply" that fight F> injustice....there are some...but mostly only in movies. The underlying reason to help others is because an indovidual thinks that it's the right thing to do. There is no single answer for this, just as there's no single reason why some people believe in God and others don't. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ROAD WARRIOR To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Subject Date: Fri Oct 13 12:07:22 CDT 1995 Message number: 44 Reply to message number: -125 DR> Are we justified in interfering in other nations just so it would be of DR> benefit to us? I don't agree America is "imperialistic". But I agree that Haiti was a big waste of our time. Aristide wasn't worth a single ounce of aviation fuel used to take him back. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JAIZMAIN To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: 3rd world Date: Tue Nov 07 05:32:23 CST 1995 Message number: 45 Reply to message number: 43 F> what are the underlying reasons why they help others???? is it to in result F> help themselves???? also, there are not "many peoply" that fight F> injustice....there are some...but mostly only in movies. Even the Boddhisatvas help other humans in the effort to gain insight into their own humanity. Once they become Buddhas, they move on the next existence, but their benificent love for humankind radiates to their past reality. Jaizmain ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MAILER DAEMON To: All Subject: Africa and the Free Market Date: Wed Feb 07 11:27:19 CST 1996 Message number: 46 Reply to message number: unavailable From: JanieByg@aol.com To: mn-politics@MR.Net Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 18:07:02 -0500 Subject: Thomas Friedman column, NYTimes, 1/28/96 Thomas Friedman's Foreign Affairs column on this day was less about foreign issues than a comment on what's going on in Congress, through the eyes of someone who has a world perspective. I have watched the editorial pages of the StarTribune to see if they would reprint it, but they did not. So, I thought I'd share a bit of it and see if it will spur some discussion. For the sake of brevity, I've paraphrased some things. Verbatim copy will be in quotes. American U.N. representative Madeleine Albright and her staff posed for a picture in Rwanda. "There was a Greek-American, a Czech-American, Jewish Americans,black Americans and white Americans, there were Air Force crewmen from small towns and State Department experts from Ivy League colleges, and they were all standing there shoulder to shoulder. ....That picture represented everything that is good about America: the spirit of community, the melting pot, the willingness to help strangers in need and a concept of citizenship based on allegiance to an idea, not a tribe. It is everything a country like Rwanda is not." "....We have something so special compared with almost every country in the world, but if we want to preserve it, we have to pay for it." There is truth "that to preserve our social safety nets, they have to be reformed"....but "I hear cold voices who denounce government, who really want to let the market rule, and who really want to scrap as much welfare, gun control, Medicare, Medicaid and taxes as they can." "Well, Africa today is a freshman Republican's paradise." Nobody in Liberia pays taxes, there is no gun control in Angola, there is no minimum wage in Burundi and there is no welfare as we know it in Rwanda, --but a lot of their people sure wish there were. ....no one is asked to pay for Head Start, unemployment insurance, Medicaid, national service or student loan programs. Instead they have a brutal competition for scarce land, energy and water, in which Tutsi and Hutu" kill each other "in order to grab more resources for their own." The freshmen Republicans (and I say all who agree with their agenda), "might want to come to Africa and glimpse what happens to countries where there is no sense of community, no sense that people owe their government anything, no sense that anyone is responsible for anyone else and where everyone, rich or poor, is left to the tender mercies of the global marketplace." (This column was on the Op-Ed page of the Sunday New York Times, January 28, 1996. I tried to find it in the Times Web Site, but couldn't. I am still a neophyte at the Internet "thing", so maybe someone with more cyber-knowledge can locate it) We all realize that we have to get our financial house in order...but I don't agree that the social programs of the 1960's is the sole cause of our social or money problems. How about the billions that were spent bailing out failing S&Ls after deregulation, the millions wasted on weapons systems that either don't work or are too horrible to use anyway? In the name of cvility and sincere problem solving, let's have a truce. We Liberals will quit blaming Big Business, Reagan and the Pentagon, and Conservatives can stop blaming welfare and The Great Society. What's done is done....Both sides acted out of sincere conviction that their way was right. But rather than defiantly defending a position, why don't we make a sincere effort to analyze things from this day forward, and if it something needs to change, fine. To "re-form" should not imply the original was not worthy. It's just that times change. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: ALL Subject: Bral. Wrkrs unite Date: Thu Aug 22 18:02:30 CDT 1996 Message number: 47 Reply to message number: unavailable [*********PNEWS CONFERENCES************] From: "Jan Norden" Subject: Defend Brazilian Worker Militants Please bring this to attention of Hank Roth: Brothers and sisters,=20 =09An important labor and anti-racist battle is under way in the Brazilian industrial center of Volta Redonda, in the state of Rio de Janeiro. The municipal workers union (SFPMVR) has undertaken a campaign to disaffiliate the municipal guardas (police) from the union. This is a fundamental class principle: as the program of the union leadership states, cops are not part of the working class but the armed fist of the capitalist ruling class. =09The response of the bosses and their agents has been a series of provocations, beginning with the invasion of an SFPMVR union assembly by the notorious Military Police on March 13. An international campaign was launched then for solidarity with the Brazilian unionists. Now the anti-union assault has escalated once again. The courts have intervened to suspend Geraldo Ribeiro from his elected post as president of the SFPMVR. As union assemblies demanded his reinstatement and voted to disaffiliate the police, the city government continued its vendetta by charging Ribeiro with "slander." The "slander" consisted of denouncing the racist firing of a black woman and leading a campaign for her reinstatement. =09Brazil's rulers have long sought to silence the truth about racial oppression in this largely black country, and the use of a censorship law from the military dictatorship against Ribeiro for fighting to mobilize the labor movement against racial oppression is a clear example of this. =09In addition to Ribeiro's case, SFPMVR activist Marcello Carega is facing charges of "disobedience," for leading 150 workers in blocking a municipal building during the nationwide general strike on June 21.=20 =09The Brazilian class-struggle militants have asked for statements of solidarity against the attempt to silence their struggle against racism and for the rights of labor. =09Reprinted below are materials from the Luta Metalurgica bulletin of 26 July 1996 published by the Liga Quarta-Internacionalista do Brasil (Fourth Internationalist League of Brazil). The LQB's newspaper, Vanguarda Operaria, has called for a campaign demanding, "Police and Courts Hands Off the SFPMVR!"=20 Defend Brazilian Worker Militants Under Attack for Fighting Racism =09--from 26 July 1996 Luta Metalurgica bulletin: POLICE HANDS OFF THE SFPMVR!=20 (Volta Redonda municipal workers' union) =09For Mobilizations in Defense of Geraldo, Marcello and Regina Celia =09A New Persecution by the "Justice" System Against the =09Union and Geraldo for Fighting Against Racism! =09As workers and activists know, class-struggle fighters in the SFPMVR have led an effort which is essential for class independence: for the disaffiliation of the municipal guardas [police], since the police (of any kind) are not part of the labor movement. This struggle has gained the adherence of the mother of Ernane, a black child who was working to help his parents and was assassinated by a guarda in October 1995 in the Vila Americana neighborhood, as well as defense and sympathy on the part of broad sectors of the oppressed. Now the bourgeois press is reporting regularly on this struggle and the commander of the guardas himself says it would be better for them to leave the union. But as a form of vengeance, the bourgeois government is using as its puppet the coup-plotter Artur [Fernandes, who called military police into a March union meeting and has been appointed by the courts to take over the union]. Class-conscious workers demand: Courts out of the SFPMVR! "Justice" system and police, hands off! The union is ours, not theirs! Now the bosses' campaign of revenge and repression has continued with a new persecution. For several months, under the program put forward by brother Geraldo and other class-struggle militants, the union has been carrying out a campaign to win back the job of Regina Celia, a black woman fired in a clear act of RACISM.=20 =09The class-struggle program explains that it is the duty of all workers to fight against racial oppression and the oppression of women. We must mobilize the power of the proletariat against this oppression, because that is the only way we can defeat the racism that divides the working class. Only in this way, under the leadership of a revolutionary workers party, can we unite the workers against the common enemy: capitalist exploitation.=20 =09But now, for telling the TRUTH, Geraldo is being PERSECUTED once again by the bosses' courts. These courts, responding to the demand of the bourgeois government of the Popular Front, are charging Geraldo with "slander" because of his defense of Regina Celia. This charge could mean years in prison! "ENOUGH OF BOSS ATTACKS AGAINST THE UNION! DOWN WITH CHARGES AND PERSECUTION AGAINST GERALDO. BOURGEOISIE HANDS OFF OUR UNION PRESIDENT!" It is urgent that there be active solidarity from the union movement, from black organizations, from students who oppose racism and repression, from all those who defend workers' rights!=20 =09Workers and activists will recall that with regard to the Frente Brasil Popular and the local Popular Front we have put forward proletarian opposition to this class collaboration, saying: no vote to any candidate of popular fronts. All of the recent events have underlined this essential position. The popular front has shown what it means: sending cops against workers' meetings, sending Military Police and guardas to arrest activists during the general strike, attempting mass layoffs, putting unions under court intervention like in the years of the dictatorship, firing black women and using laws from the dictatorship to try to shut the mouths of those who tell the truth and fight against racism! Join us--we fight against the popular front and for a revolutionary workers party.=20 =09We of Luta Metal=FArgica (LQB) give our solidarity to the campaign of the municipal worker ranks, which says the following:=20 =09"Campaign in defense of Marcello Carega and Geraldo =09"Marcello and Geraldo are being charged and have already been called in for questioning by the Civil Police (93rd Precinct).=20 =09"Their crime: Marcello Carega was active in the June 21 General Strike called by the municipal workers, by the CUT [labor federation] and even sectors of the popular front, which even called it on television and the press in general. Geraldo's 'crime' is defending Regina Celia, a black woman and mother of two children who was fired by the Beatriz Gama Foundation for having an 'ugly face.' All workers must draw lessons from these events and see how the Popular Front says one thing and does another; it says it defends the right to strike and uses the police to bring charges against those who participate in strikes even when the popular front joins in calling the strike; it says it defends blacks and it fires a black woman for having an 'ugly face' and uses the police to bring charges against someone for defending her, while it brings charges against the singer Tiririca, BASICALLY FOR THE SAME RACIST REASONS FOR WHICH REGINA CELIA WAS FIRED. The entire workers movement must unmask these wolves in sheep's clothing and demand:=20 =09"FOR THE IMMEDIATE DROPPING OF THE CHARGES AGAINST GERALDO AND MARCELLO; THIS IS A CONTINUATION OF THE CAMPAIGN FOR: COPS, HANDS OFF THE SFPMVR!!"=20 =09Complete support to the assemblies of the municipal workers' ranks, who want to disaffiliate the municipal guardas from the SFPMVR!=20 =09[The bulletin also includes a statement by the mother of Ernane da Silva Lucio supporting the campaign for guardas out of the union.] =09* * * =09A July 30 leaflet published by municipal union president Geraldo Ribeiro, "suspended" by the bosses' court intervention, reports on a union assembly held on July 26 (attended by 150 workers) which voted to reinstate him as president of the union, disaffiliate the municipal guardas from the union and declare a strike alert. The leaflet reports that "there was a minute of silence in memory of Ernane, who was chosen as a symbol of the struggle against the murder of children in Brazil."=20 =09The Brazilian militants are asking for messages of solidarity protesting the charges against Geraldo Ribeiro and Marcello Carega, as well as solidarizing with the campaign "Police Hands Off the Volta Redonda Municipal Workers Union!" and against the court intervention in the union.= =20 = =20 = =20 =09Messages of solidarity may be sent c/o: =09LQB/LM =09Av. Lucas Evangelista No. 418, sala 306 =09Bairro Aterrado - CEP 27.295-320 =09Volta Redonda, RJ, Brazil =20 =09Please send copies to: =09Jan Norden =09Box 3125, Church Street Station =09New York, NY 10008, USA =09 =09E-mail: jannorden@msn.com ... "42? 7 and a half million years and all you can come up with is 42?!" ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: ALL Subject: AAN#194 ---1 Zaire and RR Date: Wed Nov 13 11:32:02 CST 1996 Message number: 48 Reply to message number: unavailable A M E R I C A N A T H E I S T S nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn nnnnnnnnnn AANEWS nnnnnnnnnn #194 uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu 11/7/96 http://www.atheists.org e-mail: aanews@atheists.org In This Issue... A Special Report * Another Robertson Fling With Authoritarian Politics * About This List... MOBUTO-ROBERTSON ~~ A CHRISTIAN ''DANCES WITH DICTATORS'' SAGA The Chaos In Zaire Highlights Links Between Televangelist Pat Robertson And A Thuggish African Dictator ** When the "soft money" scandal linking President Clinton and the Democratic National Committee to foreign interests like the powerful Riady family hit , the media all but ignored similar ties involving powerful televangelist Pat Robertson. While Robertson's Christian Coalition was calling "foul" over a Buddhist temple fund-raiser which funneled money into DNC coffers, few people realized that Robertson's International Family Entertainment, Inc. was a partner with the Riady Family, the Indonesian dynasty which runs the Lippo Group, to market television programming in China and other Asian countries. Now, Robertson's international connections are once again highlighted due to the avuncular preacher's links to Zaire's megalomaniac dictator, Mobutu Sese Seko. To borrow a Christian Coalition phrase, Zaire is now in "meltdown" following decades of strongman rule by Mobuto, and ethnic civil war, along with the influx of over a million refugees displaced by fighting in the eastern part of the country. If anything, Mobutu is just another example of the penchant of religious right leaders -- in this case Robertson -- to involve themselves with figures and causes which represent the most repressive social and political agendas. ... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander. ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: ALL Subject: AAN#194---2 Date: Wed Nov 13 11:32:03 CST 1996 Message number: 49 Reply to message number: unavailable The "Great Leopard" A former army commander, Mobutu seized power in a 1965 coup and immediately began to nurture a "cult of personality" around himself. He ordered schools to replace Christian crosses with his portrait in every classroom, and he appropriated the title of Mobutu Sese Seko Kuku Ngfbendu Wa Za Banga, which roughly translated means "the all-powerful warrior who, by his endurance and will to win, goes from conquest to conquest leaving fire in his wake.." His promises of African populism quickly turned sour. A tribal secret police force was soon jailing and executing political dissidents, and money was flowing from government coffers into foreign accounts belonging to Mobutu and his cronies. Bizarre laws instructed the 40 million Zaireans how to dress, even what names they could use. The Christian Science Monitor notes in today's edition that "His influence is such that many Zaireans fear him even when he is thousands of miles away. A network of spies and secret police keeps residents in the capital looking over their shoulders when they talk of the 'Great Leopard,' as Mobutu is known." Despite this, Mobutu served as a key U.S. ally on the African continent during the cold war, and attracted the interest of both foreign intelligence services and the American religious right. For both groups, the dictator was seen as a check on socialist Angola; both Zaire and the United States supported the rebel movement UNITA under the leadership of Jonas Savimbi. In the early 1980's, Robertson's Christian Broadcasting Network was already a key player in an alliance of business interests, intelligence operatives and "private aid" networks proping up "anticommunist" mercenary forces throughout the world, especially in Latin America. Robertson was rubbing shoulders with this cabal of freebooters, which included the Unification Church (Rev. Moon), John Singlaub (World Anti Communist League) and paramilitary outfits like the Civilian Military Assistance. CBN was beating the drums on behalf of "contra" efforts in Nicaragua, and groups like Committee for a Free Afghanistan which backed the Islamic Mujahadeen alliance against the Soviet invasion of that country, and the Free Angola Committee which boosted Savimbi. When the Angolan government reached an agreement with foreign oil interests including the giant Chevron firm, it was a major blow to Robertson and the interests who had been using Mobutu and Zaire as a rebel staging area. In 1986, Robertson was calling for renewed support of UNITA, and joined with Howard Phillips' Conservative Caucus to launch a boycott campaign against Chevron. Phillips was still a Republican operative and was a key figure in the burgeoning religious right movement, and was already well on the way toward embracing the extreme Christian Reconstructionist dogmas that he holds today. For his role in allowing Zaire to be used as a staging area for aid to Savimbi, Mobutu became a cause celebre for Robertson and the Christian right. But change was on the way, and with thaw in the cold war even the U.S State Department was growing concerned with Mobutu's strongman rule . On April 24, 1990, Mobutu ("under pressure," according to news sources), ended single-party rule and began to create the illusion of a pluralistic government, first by appointing opposition leader Etienne Tshisekedi as prime minister, then quickly replacing him with Leon Kengo. Robertson stayed involved in Zaire through a Christian Broadcasting Network outreach called "Operation Blessing," and a less-publicized venture known as African Development Company. ADC operated a diamond-mining project and forestry range on one of the government's concession tracts, part of Zaire's $300 million annual trade in the precious stone market. And Robertson became more of a mouthpiece for Mobutu, a fact which prompted Dr. Makau Muta of the Harvard Law School's Human Rights Program to declare that "Robertson is Mobutu's biggest American catch." By 1995, Robertson was part of a network of boosters for the Zairean dictator which included a group of paid consultants, religious right activists and intelligence operatives. In August of 1995, Robertson announced efforts to persuade the U.S. State Department to lift its ban on granting Mobutu a visa, reversing a policy which had been implemented two years earlier. The Washington Post quoted State Department sources who insisted that contrary to Robertson, "Mobutu hasn't changed...What he wants is a transition from the second Mobutu republic to the third Mobutu republic." The Post noted that "The long U.S. bill of particulars against him (Mobutu) includes massive corruption, personal enrichment on a spectacular scale at his country's expense, indifference to the physical deterioriation of what should be a prosperous country, connivance at rearming the murderous Hutu militias of neighboring Rwanda and repeated maneuvers to the frustrate the process of transition to democracy that ht has promised to support." A Clinton administration source told the Post that "Robertson's hand is all over" the visa lobbying campaign. Also helping were some other operatives with long-standing ties to Robertson groups and the religious right. They included: * Paul Erickson ~ political consultant and political director for the 1992 primary campaign for Pat Buchanan. * Jack Abramoff, former director of Citizens for America (bankrolled by drugstore magnate Lewis Lehrman), one of the "private aid" groups that was part of the Oliver North's operation to aid the Nicaraguan contras, and a Board Member of "Towards Tradition," a religious-conservative Jewish group that works closely with Robertson's Christian Coalition. Abramoff, like Robertson, was often an apologist for the former apartheid regime in South Africa. While chairman of the College Republican National Committee he traveled to South Africa in order to forge relations with the extreme right National Student Federation. And he produced the 1989 film "Red Scorpion," supposedly a loose interpretation of the story of Jonas Savimbi; the movie was financed in part by the then aparteid government of South Africa. But Abramoff was involved even deeper in South African intrigue, especially efforts to prop up the apartheid regime, portray Nelson Mandela and the African National Congress as tools of international communism, and support the role of the Inkatha (Zulu) Freedom Party. Abramoff was involved in the International Freedom Foundation, founded in 1986 as a Washington "think-tank," but according to some an overseas asset of the South African National Defence Force and intelligence service, BOSS (Bureau of State Security). Newsday revealed that its investigation discovered: "A respectable Washington foundation which drew into its web prominent Republican and conservative figures such as Senator Jesse Helms and other members of Congress, was actually a front organization bankrolled by South Africa's last white rulers to prolong apartheid..." Involved in IFF projects along with Abramoff were such Washington heavy-hitters as Rep. Dan Burton (R-Ind.), Rep. Robert Dornan and presidential candidate Alan Keyes. ... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander. ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: ALL Subject: AAN#194---3 Date: Wed Nov 13 11:32:04 CST 1996 Message number: 50 Reply to message number: unavailable Chaos in Zaire Following thirty years of authoritarian rule by Mobutu and over a decade of efforts by the American religious right to prop-up the dictators public image, Zaire is in shambles. Inflation has soared by nearly 100% in the last several months, and "ethnic cleansing" and warfare is rampant between the Tusi and Hutu tribal groups. A staggering amount of the country's wealth (one estimate is $10 billion) has been looted by Mobutu, who is recovering from prostate surgery in Europe. The human rights "Zaire Watch" charges that Mobutu "has used the Rwandan refugee situation to prop himself up. His policies have created serious tensions at the borders between Zaire, Rwanda and Burundi. He has consistently used people who committed genocide in Rwanda to destabilize Rwanda for the last year and a half. He has also contributed to the crisis in Burundi by allowing Burundi rebels to attack their country using Zaire as their staging base..." Pat Robertson and other extreme political religious interests in America may be President Mobutu's last and only hope to retain power, or even find a place to settle if his regime is overthrown. The Swiss have granted a passport to Mobutu since their banks hold an estimated $4 billion of the autocrat's money, but most other European nations are either luke-warm of hostile on the prospect of extending exile status to the ailing dictator. He may not even return to Zaire, preferring to remain at his palatial Mediterranean palace on the Cote d"Azur in France. Ironically, some analysts -- and even citizens in Zaire -- see a Mobutu return as the only way to stabilize the country and "keep the generals in line." Zaire may disintegrate into tribal provinces. There is also the prospect of an international military-aid operation involving French and even American troops; reports suggest, though, that many Zaireans are resentful of the French who, they say, want to bolster Mobutu's shaky rule. Regardless of the outcome, the Zairean tragedy remains a massive violation of human rights, and another example of Pat Robertson's problematic involvement with corrupt, authoritarian political interests. ** About This List... AANEWS is a free service from American Atheists, a nationwide movement founded by Madalyn Murray O'Hair for the advancement of Atheism, and the total, absolute separation of government and religion. For information about American Atheists, send mail to info@atheists.org and include your name and postal mailing address. Or, check out our site on the web at http://www.atheists.org. You may forward, post or quote from this dispatch, provided that appropriate credit is given to aanews and American Atheists. For subscribe/unsubscribe information, send mail to aanews-request@listserv.atheists.org and put "info aanews" (minus the quotation marks, please) in the message body. Edited and written by Conrad F. Goeringer, The LISTMASTER (cg@atheists.org). Internet Representative for American Atheists is Margie Wait, irep@atheists.org. ... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander. ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Sandman Subject: Re: AAN#194 ---1 Zaire and RR Date: Wed Nov 13 15:18:50 CST 1996 Message number: 51 Reply to message number: 48 S> When the "soft money" scandal linking President Clinton and the Democrati S> National Committee to foreign interests like the powerful Riady family hit , S> the media all but ignored similar ties involving powerful televangelist Pat S> Robertson. While Robertson's Christian Coalition was calling "foul" over a S> Buddhist temple fund-raiser which funneled money into DNC coffers, few peopl S> realized that Robertson's International Family Entertainment, Inc. was a S> partner with the Riady Family, the Indonesian dynasty which runs the Lippo S> Group, to market television programming in China and other Asian countries. Robertson isn't the only one. I don't know details, but from past experience, my guess is that if we dug into the campaign money of a LOT of politicians the shovel would come up brown. For instance, ahem, Boschwitz.