------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Community Date: Tue Mar 07 05:58:11 CST 1995 Message number: 1 Reply to message number: unavailable Community isn't very important to most Americans anymore. The day of mom and pop candy stores, knowing your neighbors and walking safely down the streets seems to be over. But why ... can anything be done to change this? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AMERICAN CAPITALIST To: Froggy Subject: Re: Community Date: Fri Jul 07 03:54:33 CDT 1995 Message number: 2 Reply to message number: -12 F> A scholarship and good SAT scores aren't worth a damn. I was F> National Merit Scholar and won a scholarship. I lost the scholarship becaus F> I didn't have $$ to pay rent and transportation while I went to college. F> There is no way to survive in this society without money. I think that too many people out there don't really understand what the moral meaning of money is. It represents value which one has produced, not arbitrary pieces of paper. (In a free economy, it would be backed up by something objective, like gold.) "There is no way to survive in this society without money." I think that a more accurate thing to say is "there is no way to survive without producing one's means of survival." I'm sure you intended it in this context, but I just wanted to clear it up. I think that to call it "money" as though it's some kind of bogus, dirty thing makes it sound like money and its posession are arbitrary. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AMERICAN CAPITALIST To: Cosima Subject: Re: Community Date: Fri Jul 07 03:58:37 CDT 1995 Message number: 3 Reply to message number: -10 C> frogster, good for you. the "look on the bright side" philosophy doesn't cut C> it. and yes, i know there are always people more miserable than i am- but a C> life of light and learning has to have *all* aspects attached to it. it does C> anger me- despite my parents' philosophies that one can still "pull onesself C> up by one's bootstraps"-- i.e. make it all work- the people who are *given* C> advantages don['t have all that stuff to fight through. Try not to be angry at the children of upper-middle class/rich parents. They are going to have to do a few things right and do some kind of work to keep all that money they inherited or to match their parents' success. Also, do you feel that another man's wealth is a threat to you in some way? Do you see another person's being born to a good family and the money he'll be able to spend which you'd have to work harder for as a threat to you? Do you see it as money they have which you would otherwise be yours? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: American Capitalist Subject: Re: Community Date: Fri Jul 07 06:40:37 CDT 1995 Message number: 4 Reply to message number: 3 AC> Try not to be angry at the children of upper-middle class/rich parents. Th AC> are going to have to do a few things right and do some kind of work to keep AC> all that money they inherited or to match their parents' success. AC> AC> Also, do you feel that another man's wealth is a threat to you in some way? AC> Do you see another person's being born to a good family and the money he'll AC> able to spend which you'd have to work harder for as a threat to you? Do y AC> see it as money they have which you would otherwise be yours? ** hi AC... good and valid points, fasure. yes, these kids will have a hard time of it, in their way. as a baby boomer, i know *I* did- i always assumed that a good job, a house and stability were mine by *birthright*. i was wrong...and my parents *still* ask me when i'm going to get a :"real" job- although my own business goes extremely well- because i'm not in an office that opens at 8 and closes at 5. it's not the *children* that bother me- it;s the *parents*. the buck-passing- that parents now expect the *schools* to be the imparter of not only kniowledge but values, ethics and conscience. it;'s a team effort. i get tired of being responsible for it all. ** do i see other peoples' karmic coincidences as a "threat" to me? nope. i'm egocentric and snobbish enough to *like* being me, with the values and education i have- and frankly, if someone offered me a lawyer's salary, i wouldn't take it...if i had to be a *lawyer*. i;'m happy with who i am, for the most part. i simply am frustrated at our educational system- and am constantly up against parents who are so concerned with their kids' :"self-esteem" that they have put them into a bell jar with no reaction, no criticism, no negatives, no unpopular ideas- to wreck the perfect little ecosystem of light and love. course i don;t advocate going back to corporal punishment or the incredibly scandinavian negativity with which i was raised- but as usual, the middle ground would be a good place to live. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: American Capitalist Subject: Re: Community Date: Fri Jul 07 07:33:34 CDT 1995 Message number: 5 Reply to message number: 2 AC> "There is no way to survive in this society without money." AC> AC> I think that a more accurate thing to say is "there is no way to survive AC> without producing one's means of survival." I'm sure you intended it in th AC> context, but I just wanted to clear it up. I think that to call it "money" AC> though it's some kind of bogus, dirty thing makes it sound like money and i No, I said EXACTLY what I intended to say. I have a disability but still have skills. The electric company will not accept a trade of skills in payment. They want a check. The same thing happened in college. I could not find employment that would accomodate my disability so I offered to work for the Universith to pay off a school loan. They weren't interested. They only wanted money. They tried to seize my income tax refund and were shocked to find out that I was telling the truth. I had no income. I was offering skills. Yes, I do think that this is a bogus, dirty perversion pf peoples' worth. It is saying that if you have no money you have no worth. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: American Capitalist Subject: Re: Community Date: Fri Jul 07 07:39:01 CDT 1995 Message number: 6 Reply to message number: 3 AC> Try not to be angry at the children of upper-middle class/rich parents. Th AC> are going to have to do a few things right and do some kind of work to keep AC> all that money they inherited or to match their parents' success. I do not see any evidence that Cosima is "angry at the children of upper-middle class/rich parents". I am one of those children myself. But because I am disabled and cannot work in the conventional ways, I live in poverty. My parents won't help me because they have also bought into that bogus "you're only as good as the amount of money you bring in" mindset. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ZWEITER HOYF To: American Capitalist Subject: Re: Community Date: Sat Jul 08 19:04:35 CDT 1995 Message number: 7 Reply to message number: unavailable AC> I think that too many people out there don't really understand what the mo AC> meaning of money is. It represents value which one has produced, not AC> arbitrary pieces of paper. (In a free economy, it would be backed up by AC> something objective, like gold.) Money represents arbitrary pieces of paper in a capitalist society. You may be thinking of a barter society. Great wealth is produced these days by investment, for the most part, which is a transfer of pieces of paper, and bytes of data. They have the value assigned by the people that buy them and not the amount of work involved. If I own stock and by luck a programmed trade has occurred which doubles the value of my ownings, what have I produced to earn my wealth? I just let some- one use my pieces of paper for a while to buy more pieces of paper, and somewhere down the line someone is able to use it for the means of production, but I have done nothing except call my broker. It's a shell game, who knows when the last barter economy existed? --- ž NFX V1.2 [Freeware] Graphic Offline Mail Reader. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Zweiter Hoyf Subject: Re: Community Date: Sun Jul 09 00:01:29 CDT 1995 Message number: 8 Reply to message number: 7 ZH> It's a shell game, who knows when the last barter economy existed? Actually it does still exist in the underground. For the most part it includes people who have been left out of the *paper* economy. They trade services for services. Of course it is unreliable because what you want is not necessarily available when and where you want it. The IRS would like to force people to convert it to a paper economy by defining the values of services exchanged and paying tax on them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LORD FZOUL To: American Capitalist Subject: Re: Community Date: Wed Jul 12 17:00:25 CDT 1995 Message number: 9 Reply to message number: 3 AC> Try not to be angry at the children of upper-middle class/rich parents. Th AC> are going to have to do a few things right and do some kind of work to keep AC> all that money they inherited or to match their parents' success. More than often people (kids) are more successful than there parents on average if I remember teh survey right (money wise) and the odds that you make more money that 1 or both of your parents if 3:1. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPRITE To: Lord Fzoul Subject: Re: Community Date: Thu Jul 13 06:58:51 CDT 1995 Message number: 10 Reply to message number: 9 LF> More than often people (kids) are more successful than there parents on LF> average if I remember teh survey right (money wise) and the odds that you m LF> more money that 1 or both of your parents if 3:1. This would be true if we're talking about present day dollars. My parents made a fair amount of money for their time, but the same amount of money today wouldn't buy as much. I certainly couldn't afford the house and number of kids they had on the money they made then. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LORD FZOUL To: Sprite Subject: Re: Community Date: Thu Jul 13 12:46:32 CDT 1995 Message number: 11 Reply to message number: 10 S> This would be true if we're talking about present day dollars. My parents S> made a fair amount of money for their time, but the same amount of money tod S> wouldn't buy as much. I certainly couldn't afford the house and number of S> kids they had on the money they made then. Ture I have never thought of of like that, guess that that is why! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPRITE To: Lord Fzoul Subject: Re: Community Date: Fri Jul 14 03:08:35 CDT 1995 Message number: 12 Reply to message number: 11 LF> Ture I have never thought of of like that, guess that that is why! Yeah - it's one of those things that sounds good on paper and leaves everyone wondering why they can't make it like their parents did even though they might be making more money than Mom and Dad. If you're my age (31), chances are your mother didn't work until you were in maybe junior high (and when she did, she probably had a "traditional" women's job like nursing or teaching that paid pretty low), your dad had the "good" job, and you had at least two other siblings. Plus a house in a middle-class neighborhood or suburb and a family vacation each summer. These days, it takes both couples to work in order to stay ahead, or even just afloat. Plus you normally these days keep the number of kids down to one or two. Things sure ain't like they used to be! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LORD FZOUL To: Sprite Subject: Re: Community Date: Fri Jul 14 12:17:29 CDT 1995 Message number: 13 Reply to message number: 12 S> These days, it takes both couples to work in order to stay ahead, or even ju S> afloat. Plus you normally these days keep the number of kids down to one or S> two. Things sure ain't like they used to be! I wish that I can relate to that, but being born in the early 80's I am used to sayings like that.. talk to me about life in the 90's for a kid and I can answer your questions. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GREGOR SAMSA To: Zweiter Hoyf Subject: Community Date: Fri Jul 14 18:21:47 CDT 1995 Message number: 14 Reply to message number: unavailable ZH> Money represents arbitrary pieces of paper in a capitalist ZH> society. Is this necessarily true? "Money" exists independent of the issuing of "bills" to our federal government. Granted, our currency, only has the value that the fed assigns it but their are many more 'intangible' forms of money. These are the forms that concern the capitalist. He still values them with 'arbritary pieces of paper' that mysteriously float against other currencies. A fortune can be made or lost in the currency market. ZH> If I own stock and by luck a programmed trade has occurred ZH> which doubles the value of my ownings, what have I produced to ZH> earn my wealth? A very good point. What have you produced? Nothing. The question should be what have I stolen from those who really did produce something? ___ Mountain Reader II - #Demo 001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EUROPA To: Lord Fzoul Subject: Re: Community Date: Sat Jul 15 06:02:31 CDT 1995 Message number: 15 Reply to message number: 13 LF> I wish that I can relate to that, but being born in the early 80's I am use LF> to sayings like that.. talk to me about life in the 90's for a kid and I ca LF> answer your questions. Well, what is life like for a kid in the 90's? Do you perceive it as much different from those of us who were kids in the late 70's or early 80's? I think a lot of the same choices are available, but I may be wrong! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Lord Fzoul Subject: Re: Community Date: Sat Jul 15 09:43:52 CDT 1995 Message number: 16 Reply to message number: 15 E> different from those of us who were kids in the late 70's or early 80's? I E> think a lot of the same choices are available, but I may be wrong! LF> LF> your wrong :) I think this depends on where you came from. Please explain your opinion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EUROPA To: Lord Fzoul Subject: 90's kids Date: Sat Jul 15 16:17:40 CDT 1995 Message number: 17 Reply to message number: unavailable Well, if I'm wrong, then what am I wrong about? Can't you still choose to be involved in extra-curricular activities, or local stuff like sports, drama, classes, etc.? Of course, you can choose more of a slacker approach, too, since I know when I was a kid (not all that long ago) it was uncool to be an overachiever, or an achiever of any kind, really. What kinds of special problems do you see yourself experiencing that someone ten years older than you did not? Since I have kids who will be teenagers before I can blink (well, one is pre-teen now, the others have a ways to go) I'd like to hear it from a real live teenager. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ZWEITER HOYF To: Gregor Samsa Subject: Re: Community Date: Sun Jul 16 09:00:23 CDT 1995 Message number: 18 Reply to message number: 14 GS> A very good point. What have you produced? Nothing. GS> The question should be what have I stolen from those who really did GS> produce something? I guess stolen may be a strong word, my investment however temporary did help pay their wages, I guess. I think "used" would be a good word, taken advantage would be another. But stolen, I don't think fits, because I don't believe it was against their will. And it was the company I worked for, so I did play a part in the success (along with 12,000 other people.) But venture capitalism makes it easy for people that have no more work to do than take their inheritance and shuffle it around between various mutual funds in which you need know nothing more about the companies you invest in than what the daily performance of their combined stocks are. They may be companies whose products you kno or care nothing about, or whose products you would find offensive if you did know. How many people may have invested in Prudential because they believe that health care providers have a valuable service by sharing medical risk among a pool of thousands, so that individuals wouldn't be financially destroyed by a large medical bill, only to find that Prudential took their money and invested it in a mutual fund that includes the stock of Phillip-Morris? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GREGOR SAMSA To: Zweiter Hoyf Subject: Community Date: Wed Jul 19 17:30:57 CDT 1995 Message number: 19 Reply to message number: unavailable ZH> I think "used" would be a good word, taken advantage would be ZH> another. But stolen, I don't think fits, It's a matter of semantics. None the less who produced the wealth and who benefits from it? Taking "advantage" of someone is the same as stealing. So you duped a poor fool into to working for you for your personal gain. This a "candy from the baby" arguement. ZH> But venture capitalism makes it easy for people that have no ZH> more work to do When and why should people have no more work to do? Look around there is still very much to do. You must be speaking of people that have accumulated enough wealth to be confortable and no longer wish to be part of society, only prey upon it. "No man has a natural right to commit agression on the equal right of another...every man is under the natural duty of contributing to the necessities of society." --Thomas Jefferson ZH> How many people may have invested in Prudential because they ZH> believe that health care providers have a valuable service by ZH> sharing medical risk among a pool of thousands, so that ZH> individuals wouldn't be financially destroyed by a large ZH> medical bill, Far too many. People that believe that "corporate America" really has their best interest at heart. What happens to you when "Prudential" finds out that you've "filed" a legitimate claim (let alone multiple claims)? They raise your rates, or in extreme cases they cut you off entirely. Insurance Companies, like Banks, exist to make a profit not to serve those who have "invested" in them, those who in the first place provided the capital. They take this "capital" and use it as colateral to attract investors. These investors make their money while they loan it back to the people at a premium, making even more money. ___ Mountain Reader II - #Demo 001 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DUCKMAN To: Zweiter Hoyf Subject: Re: Lakeville and other Date: Wed Aug 09 10:19:15 CDT 1995 Message number: 20 Reply to message number: -6 ZH> Heck, I'd just like to have one of his old harmonicas, let alone a recordin ZH> studio... This lady that works in a store next to me used to own a coffee shop on the U campus, and Bob used to come in all the time to play. Apparently, she got to know him pretty well. I wonder if she could get in touch with him... nah! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Communities Date: Mon Sep 11 18:37:08 CDT 1995 Message number: 21 Reply to message number: unavailable item: 5 (of 8) subj: sustainablity from: Sheldon Mains (shel@MTN.Org) on : Fri 8-Sep-1995 11:22a Sustainable communities need to first be communities. Communities involve people communicating with each other. Before home refrigerators people had to buy food daily. Corner stores developed that people could stop at on their way home from work to buy perishable food. People met their neighbors there daily, exchanged local news and gossip, and got to meet new members of the neighborhood. Home refrigerators, while improving everyone's health, simplifying life, and generally being a good idea, nevertheless eliminated that daily stop at the corner store and one channel of communications in a community. The front porch was where you spent your evening in the summer. You could talk to neighbors walking by, watch the kids play, and be out in a cool breeze. It was another chance to communicate--another chance to build communities. Television replaced the front porch as a place of entertainment. Home air conditioners replaced the front porch as a cool place to sit on a summer evening. The front porch was lost as a channel of communications in a community. We have been forced to create events like National Night Out, Juneteenth, Rondo Days, and Powderhorn Art Fair to try to get people to meet their neighbors. We have lost connection to our neighbors. We have lost communications within our communities. What can be done to reestablish these connections? Can new communications technologies could help restore communications in our communities. Could one of the 500 promised TV channels be the "front porch channel." . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . sheldon mains shel@mtn.org minneapolis, minnesota usa censorship is boring ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TBOB To: All Subject: community Date: Wed Sep 13 01:10:47 CDT 1995 Message number: 22 Reply to message number: unavailable In the desert (wilderness) of a suburb where I live. community depends very much on having children, so thre is someone out on the lawn (parents) to talk to. We knew the neighbors when our kids were living with us. Now community for us is the church (ineer city) we go to. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: What is a community? Date: Sun Sep 17 16:47:13 CDT 1995 Message number: 23 Reply to message number: unavailable What is the definition of a community? Is it possible that a place like this (Dissent) can begin to be one? What about a simple little IRC channel? A Fidonet newgroup? Can not the people who congregate in the "12 Step Recovery" forum be as close or closer as those who actually attend a 12-step program at the local church? I wonder, at times, whether or not (we're) fooling ourselves. All we seem to do is talk, bitch and moan about how bad things are. Then I also muse: many people don't even do this much. Maybe the first step to building a community, the first step towards doing something is to speak one's mind about it. Maybe the first step is communication. The next message is a posting from John Q. Doe to St. Vitus ... from a little more than a year ago. Back when Dissent was still new. It got me to thinking a bit. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this (and not in E-mail, please. That sort of defeats the purpose of this particular thread, does it not?) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: What is Community? Date: Sun Sep 17 16:47:54 CDT 1995 Message number: 24 Reply to message number: unavailable Ä Area: Latent Image ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Msg#: 104 Date: 08-03-94 21:02 From: John Q. Doe Read: Yes Replied: No To: Saint Vitus Mark: Subj: Re: Defining our Generation ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SV> I think that's taken away values, idealism, and the sense of community. SV> We used to define community by the neighborhood you lived in and the SV> people you lived with; now we define it by what channel you watch. To bring this into the BBS realm, take a look at this. If you look at the BBSs being run by people are parent's age, they usually are shitty Wildcat! file pile - 6000000 FidoNet Echoes! type of boards. No community. But boards being thrown up by people our age are centered on community (ok some are based on WaReZ and Hewlett Packard Calculators, but those are usually run by a bunch of crackerheads - whatever the fuck a crackerhead is.) My point being is that we've discovered/re-discovered what was taken out of us by watching MTV alone on Friday nights. We've kinda built a structure and a new means of being community. A safe one, and sometimes a frustrating one, but look at us! Perfect strangers bitching and moaning at each other about politcial topics, joking around about christianity, etc. Pretty damn cool and I don't think gens before us can claim they've done something similar. SV> No one belives in a perfect world anymore - we are bombarded by images of SV> scandal and death every day. What's the solution? Turn off the T.V. and be SV> disconnected from the rest of society? I believe in a perfect world. The only way I can make it live is through writing about it or daydreaming about it. The unfortunate truth is that unless a few stand and stop the machine before it gets bigger, a perfect world will be and remain to be a dream. You can quote me on that :) SV> Being the largest, most entertained group of people to ever exist on this SV> planet has got to have some effect on values. My analysis, at any rate. But that's a good thing because we can go further exploring the bounds of right/wrong/good/evil/pleasure/pain and our society has come to a point where most anything goes. Most anything, mind you. John Q. Doe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: What is Community? Date: Sun Sep 17 17:50:13 CDT 1995 Message number: 25 Reply to message number: 24 Sounds like a young user. Wonder what he would think of us "old coots" who post here now. We didn't even insist that you convert it to Wildcat. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Froggy Subject: Re: What is Community? Date: Mon Sep 18 06:26:39 CDT 1995 Message number: 26 Reply to message number: 25 F> Sounds like a young user. Wonder what he would think of us "old F> coots" who post here now. We didn't even insist that you convert it to F> Wildcat. :) ** yeah...let's hear it for the aged...amazing i can still *type*, much less get my brain to function. the issue of community is a good one-- actually, the issue of whether anyone can communicate with *anyone* about *anything* is a good one. today for not particular reason i just am incredibly bummed- the possibility of not being in a combination vortex/vacuum (and don't get technical on me, all) seems very remote indeed. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Froggy Subject: Re: What is Community? Date: Mon Sep 18 12:05:40 CDT 1995 Message number: 27 Reply to message number: 25 F> Sounds like a young user. Wonder what he would think of us "old F> coots" who post here now. We didn't even insist that you convert it to F> Wildcat. :) He (John Q. Doe) is older than me, believe it or not. He ran two of the best boards I ever had the pleasure of calling, and by means of his earlier efforts did a lot to influence the content of this one. As for age, and my take on it: the more variety the better. Different perspectives are always welcomed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Cosima Subject: Re: What is Community? Date: Mon Sep 18 12:18:51 CDT 1995 Message number: 28 Reply to message number: 26 C> the issue of community is a good one-- actually, the issue of whether C> anyone can communicate with *anyone* about *anything* is a good one. Aren't we communicating right now? Or are we just fooling ourselves? I know we all have the capability to communicate ... but do we? Why bother, when Ricky Lake is on the tube and a double portion of fat-free, cholesterol-free vegetable lasagna is in the microwave? Why bother communicating with anyone? It's too much trouble. Ricky Lake is so young and hip and just makes so much sense. The neigbors don't make any sense. The kids shooting each other in the street certainly don't make any sense. Fat-free lasagna does. So does Fluffy, the miniature Terrier - looks like Lassie. Fluffy likes to lick out the microwave-safe tupperware bowl. Dogs, microwave food and TV talk shows are easy to deal with. Real people and real communities with real problems aren't. It's easy to sit back and forget all that. Maybe Dissent is just another way to ignore reality. And in a way, that could be worse ... at least the couch potatoes are honest about it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Cosima Subject: Re: What is Community? Date: Mon Sep 18 12:42:47 CDT 1995 Message number: 29 Reply to message number: 26 C> possibility of not being in a combination vortex/vacuum (and don't get C> technical on me, all) seems very remote indeed. "There's no place like home. There's not place like home. There's no place like home, Toto. There's no place like home." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: What is Community? Date: Mon Sep 18 12:45:07 CDT 1995 Message number: 30 Reply to message number: 27 DR> He (John Q. Doe) is older than me, believe it or not. He ran two of the be DR> boards I ever had the pleasure of calling, and by means of his earlier DR> efforts did a lot to influence the content of this one. DR> Oh, so he is almost an old coot too. :) Like to meet you John Q. Doe. I agree about the age diversity, and other diversity too. I think we can teach each other a lot. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: What is Community? Date: Mon Sep 18 12:47:16 CDT 1995 Message number: 31 Reply to message number: 28 DR> Why bother communicating with anyone? It's too much trouble. Ricky Lake is DR> young and hip and just makes so much sense. The neigbors don't make any sen DR> The kids shooting each other in the street certainly don't make any sense. DR> I think Ricky Lake is a complete idiot, as are most of her guests. Now if it were Phil Donahue - - - :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SAINT VITUS To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: What is Community? Date: Mon Sep 18 16:19:23 CDT 1995 Message number: 32 Reply to message number: 24 DR> Ä Area: Latent Image ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DR> Msg#: 104 Date: 08-03-94 21:02 DR> From: John Q. Doe Read: Yes Replied: DR> To: Saint Vitus Mark: DR> Subj: Re: Defining our Generation DR> ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Gosh, these old posts... Where is JQD these days? Do you know? (You know, regarding community: I'll say that we certainly are building one. I miss JQD. I wonder what's up in his life. He is as real a person as I've ever known, not just a string of data, or someone to counterpoint my points. Relationships are real, the understanding we gain from them is definitely real; the most _real_ thing there is, solipsistically speaking. The underside of it, however is this: The Germans have two words describing the types of relationships/communities we humans create. "Gemeinschaft" and "Gesellschaft". "Gemeinschaft" relationships are the relationships we find ourselves involved in when we go to the store and talk to the clerk, or eat at a restaurant and smile at the server, or go to work and talk to our boss. They are the people who exist around us. We may not necessarily _choose_ to have contact with these people, we may not like them, but we have relationships with them. We treat them like we would like to be treated, we form bonds with them, and some of them become our close friends. "Gesellschaft" relationships are those that we seek out... the groups on IRC; those are gesellschaft. 12 Step Groups, those are gesellschaft. Your pal in Owatonna, he's gesellschaft. And Dissent is, too, believe it or not. It's when we find ourselves engaging in too many gesellschaft relationships, however, that we find our society start to break down and crinkle at the edges. By denying ourselves the crucial gemeinschaft links in our lives, we find that the people who live around us just don't matter as much. We deny those links by choosing convenience, privacy, and isolation in general, instead of the more difficult-but-rewarding options; options that require personal exposure, contact, and risk. The point I'm making here is the same one I made in the original post to John Q. Doe: by warming ourselves by the kindling of entertainment and ease, we prune the branches that provide us with the real fruits of life... trust, community, respect. Dissent is GREAT gesellschaft. The best. And we need great gesellschaft. But we can't afford to ignore those people around us everyday - because to your neighbor, _you're_ one of those people as well. Enough ranting. The point is out there. End parenthesis.) -=$aint Vitu$=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: What is Community? Date: Tue Sep 19 13:00:25 CDT 1995 Message number: 33 Reply to message number: 28 DR> Aren't we communicating right now? Or are we just fooling ourselves? DR> DR> I know we all have the capability to communicate ... but do we? Why bother DR> when Ricky Lake is on the tube and a double portion of fat-free, DR> cholesterol-free vegetable lasagna is in the microwave? ** yes, i suppose we *are* communicating right now...in a manner of speaking. the only problem is- if i need a hug (assuming we were friends) you're not there-- and one way or another, the only other respiratory system in my apartment is my cat's. sounds pretty pathetic, doesn't it? not really- i like my life. the only problem arises is when people who are blipping to one another electronically mistake that for *real* human interaction- which is laughing, loving, touching, hanging out...getting real time reaction from humans. but, barring that, this is great. AND it provides honest and open communication with people who might never have met or had anything in common without this medium. so who's to figure?? -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Froggy Subject: Re: What is Community? Date: Tue Sep 19 13:01:10 CDT 1995 Message number: 34 Reply to message number: 29 C> possibility of not being in a combination vortex/vacuum (and don't get C> technical on me, all) seems very remote indeed. F> F> "There's no place like home. There's not place like home. There's F> place like home, Toto. There's no place like home." ** yeah well...and we're not in Kansas any more, are we, dorothy. damn. :) -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Froggy Subject: Re: What is Community? Date: Tue Sep 19 13:01:54 CDT 1995 Message number: 35 Reply to message number: 30 F> Doe. I agree about the age diversity, and other diversity too. I think we F> can teach each other a lot. ** i agree. speaking is important...listening more so. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Saint Vitus Subject: Re: Dissent as a community? Date: Tue Sep 19 17:50:56 CDT 1995 Message number: 36 Reply to message number: 32 SV> Gosh, these old posts... I know. That's why I stopped "packing" the messages around the first of the year. The Introductions base can build up to 10,000 messages for all I care ... slows things down a bit, but I think it's worth it in the long run. SV> Where is JQD these days? Do you know? Mantronix would know, if anyone ... I'll see what I can find. SV> I miss JQD. I wonder what's up in his life. He is as real a person as I've SV> ever known, not just a string of data, or someone to counterpoint my points SV> Relationships are real, the understanding we gain from them is definitely SV> real; the most _real_ thing there is, solipsistically speaking. There are a lot of people who used to call who I wish were around here more ... but that's the way it goes. The user base here has turned over almost 100% over the last year, but the premise remains the same. SV> edges. By denying ourselves the crucial gemeinschaft links in our lives, w SV> find that the people who live around us just don't matter as much. We deny SV> those links by choosing convenience, privacy, and isolation in general, SV> instead of the more difficult-but-rewarding options; options that require SV> personal exposure, contact, and risk. In other words, the "digital" world has to be tempered by the real world. Perspective is an easy thing to lose. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Cosima Subject: Re: What is Community? Date: Tue Sep 19 18:05:50 CDT 1995 Message number: 37 Reply to message number: 33 C> yes, i suppose we *are* communicating right now...in a manner of speaking. t C> only problem is- if i need a hug (assuming we were friends) you're not there Digital hugs aren't very fulfilling, unfortunately :) C> only problem arises is when people who are blipping to one another C> electronically mistake that for *real* human interaction- which is laughing, C> loving, touching, hanging out...getting real time reaction from humans. but, Hardly a replacement, I agree ... but I tend to think it's more productive than watching TV. It may not be as "personal", but at least hanging out on the modem and discussing what;s on your mind is participatory. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: What is Community? Date: Sat Sep 23 10:34:57 CDT 1995 Message number: 38 Reply to message number: 37 DR> Hardly a replacement, I agree ... but I tend to think it's more productive DR> than watching TV. It may not be as "personal", but at least hanging out on DR> modem and discussing what;s on your mind is participatory. ** yr absolutely right, there, DR. i just know people who've totally replaced their actual lives with cyber ones-- not usually the people who write on bbs's, which surprisingly enough seem more reality-based- but the people who get addicted to IRC chat or commercial online svcs. i've been on the verge of being there, a coupla times. there's something about getting up at 3 AM and walking into a virtual room of 300 people...most of whom would be more than pleased to speak with you. and when they get to be a pain in the ass...they go away. too easy. need to keep perspective. i know lots of colleges are actually either cutting out access to IRC chat or cutting off internet access to students if their grades suffer. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Cosima Subject: Re: What is Community? Date: Sat Sep 23 14:19:25 CDT 1995 Message number: 39 Reply to message number: 38 C> i know lots of colleges are actually either cutting out access to IRC chat o C> cutting off internet access to students if their grades suffer. Interesting idea. I wonder when the Jr. Highs and Sr. Highs and their parents will catch on. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: REGNAD KCIN To: ALL Subject: where community is Date: Sun Sep 24 08:47:33 CDT 1995 Message number: 40 Reply to message number: unavailable For me, it helps that I'm not timid about talking to people I don't know. Cafe's and bars are something of a "community" for me. I'm a regular at Whiskey Junction/Joint/Cabooze and have gotten to know quite a few people there. Often, I just drink one or two beers the whole time I'm there, spending most of it conversing, listening to some music and getting juiced on coffee. Sometimes I'll stop by Cuppa Joe's on Grand and sit quietly reading. It's not long before I catch a conversation at either place and join in, or simply strike one up with whoever's near by. People don't mind. At least, not many. I think people LIKE to meet and talk with people they don't know - which is the case for the most part in large cities. The bubbles around us are really of our own making, and learning to bust out of them goes a long way toward finding a sense of community. --- ž OLX 1.52 ž Are you a BIG fan? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Regnad Kcin Subject: Re: where community is Date: Sun Sep 24 09:38:07 CDT 1995 Message number: 41 Reply to message number: 40 RK> and sit quietly reading. It's not long before I catch a conversation RK> at either place and join in, or simply strike one up with whoever's RK> near by. People don't mind. At least, not many. I think people LIKE to RK> meet and talk with people they don't know - which is the case for the RK> most part in large cities. The bubbles around us are really of our own RK> making, and learning to bust out of them goes a long way toward finding RK> a sense of community. ** you know, that's something you *can* do...primarily because you're a male. if a female starts chatting up people at bars- assuming she has the nerve to hang out in one in the first place, rather than with a group- it's assumed she's purely there to pick up someone for sex. it sucks. that's what cyber did for me- it allowed me to chat with people, have conversations and talk about *everything* with people- without having to worry about people "getting the wrong impression." i *hate* it that in our "enlightened" society, *half* of it still does not feel free to do *exactly* what you just described- hanging out, meeting people, striking up conversations. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Cosima Subject: Re: What is Community? Date: Mon Sep 25 07:21:59 CDT 1995 Message number: 42 Reply to message number: 38 C> i know lots of colleges are actually either cutting out access to IRC chat o C> cutting off internet access to students if their grades suffer. Not a bad idea ... but like anything else, the IRC can be abused. The IRC does seem to be the gutter of the Internet, though, in terms of learning and educating yourself. It can be interesting in short doses, but quickly gets asinine. I can't imagine spending hours online an IRC channel day in and day out. C> yr absolutely right, there, DR. i just know people who've totally replaced C> their actual lives with cyber ones-- not usually the people who write on C> bbs's, which surprisingly enough seem more reality-based- but the people who Or grab files several hours a day to play around with them ... agreed. But the Internet (amoung other things) is pulling a lot of people away from the "discussion" part of bulletin boards. It may be a case of the pasture always being greener, but I remember a time a year or two ago when I could easily find good local disussion-based boards. Now that's damned near impossible. The "cyber" community is devolving in many ways. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CAPTAIN TEEBO To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: What is Community? Date: Mon Sep 25 10:11:19 CDT 1995 Message number: 43 Reply to message number: 42 DR> asinine. I can't imagine spending hours online an IRC channel day in and da DR> out. It might be easier if you we're a UNIX admin so you could just let it build up over 15 minutes, switch back to the terminal and see what's up, and then do your thing.. DR> the Internet (amoung other things) is pulling a lot of people away from the DR> "discussion" part of bulletin boards. It may be a case of the pasture alway Yep, it's very hard to even HAVE a serious discussion in usenet. A person once said something that I haved adopted and repeat very much myself, "When your average person meets the technical elite there will be social shock." There are alot of people in the world that could never ever understand the views and outlooks of the kinds of people that made up the net.community 5 years ago, it's just a totally different world. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ZWEITER HOYF To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Communities Date: Sat Sep 30 09:44:37 CDT 1995 Message number: 44 Reply to message number: unavailable DR> DR> Can new communications technologies could help restore communications in DR> our communities. Could one of the 500 promised TV channels be the "front DR> porch channel." DR> Why look to high tech solutions for interpersonal problems? I realize that technology can be more exciting than just talking to someone, at first, but we have found that we have good neighbors here on the East Side of St. Paul just by actually going to their houses for dinner, etc. We have spent time in the backyards and front porches of our neighbors - some times it only takes a little initiative to make contact, no devices necessary except doorknobs. --- ž NFX V1.2 [Freeware] Graphic Offline Mail Reader. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ZWEITER HOYF To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: What is Community? Date: Sat Sep 30 09:44:38 CDT 1995 Message number: 45 Reply to message number: unavailable DR> DR> Maybe Dissent is just another way to ignore reality. And in a way, that c DR> be worse ... at least the couch potatoes are honest about it. Where's the honesty in ignorance? Couch potatoes aren't honest because they are passive and let TV audience questions form their judgment. If you were to ask a couch potato whether they are ignoring reality they would first give you a blank stare, and then vehemently deny it. --- ž NFX V1.2 [Freeware] Graphic Offline Mail Reader. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Community Solidarity Date: Sun Oct 01 12:37:02 CDT 1995 Message number: 46 Reply to message number: unavailable ------------------------- Via Workers World News Service Reprinted from the Oct. 5, 1995 issue of Workers World newspaper ------------------------- LABOR-COMMUNITY SOLIDARITY RALLY IN DECATUR, ILL. "It's Time to Band Together" By Louis Paulsen Decatur, Ill. Hundreds of workers, family members and their supporters from around the country rallied in an outdoor amphitheater in the central park here in Decatur, Ill.--the heart of labor's war zone--on Sept. 23. The rally wound up the 50-city "Caravans for Justice" organized by the National People's Campaign. The caravans had brought together people from the working class and oppressed communities--unionists and welfare recipients, Native nations and supporters of Mumia Abu-Jamal--in a demonstration-on-wheels against the Contract with America and its attack on the working class. The caravans had taken to the road in early September. They made stops at various sites of struggle around the country. Then they converged in central Illinois. There, three sets of workers have been battling union busting. They are UAW members at Caterpillar, on strike since June 1994; members of the Paper Workers at A.E. Staley, locked out since June 1993; and Steel Workers members at Bridgestone/Firestone, whose jobs were given to scabs during a nine-month strike that ended in the spring. The Decatur labor-community solidarity rally, like the caravans that led to it, resounded with a clear call for solidarity among workers and the oppressed. On the concrete steps around the small plaza, the embattled workers of Decatur mingled with community and labor activists of all nationalities from the West Coast, East Coast and points between. Many wore the red "war zone" T-shirt in solidarity with the Decatur workers. Many also wore "Free Mumia" buttons. Speaker after speaker paid tribute to the struggling workers of Decatur. But the event was more than an ordinary strike-support rally. It was a demonstration of working-class solidarity in its truest sense-- extending beyond the confines of the labor movement to include the unorganized, the homeless, the poor, the unemployed, and the imprisoned. `GRASSROOTS MOVEMENT NEEDED' Rose McElroy--a Peoria, Ill., Caterpillar worker illegally fired for union activity and an NPC organizer who traveled with the Midwest loop of the Caravans for Justice--co-chaired the rally. Speaking of the struggles of the Chippewa against a copper mining project at Mole Lake, Wis., she said: "You should see what Exxon is doing to those people. "They've destroyed their rice crop, killed all the animals. ... Those people are asking for help from people like us. They need us like we need them. "It's time for all of us to band together and fight the corruption and especially the police brutality. We saw that from one end of the caravan to the other. "We know where that's coming from because we know who made up the hit list on our strikers. We don't want it to happen to our kids like it happened to little Tommy Bell in Milwaukee." The presidents of the three union locals that co-sponsored the rally then welcomed caravan participants and called for unity. Dave Watts of Paper Workers Local 7837 at Staley said: "The struggles of working people, organized and unorganized, are everywhere ... I implore all of you to become an organizer." Larry Solomon of UAW Local 751 at Caterpillar said: "The rich have always owned America, and the workers have been the slaves used to process the natural resources of the rich. We're going to have to get together and take on corporate greed." Roger Gates of Steel Workers Local 713 at Bridgestone/Firestone said, "Grassroots movements like this one are the thing that have to happen in this country." ISSUES THEY'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO CARE ABOUT Then one by one, the issues that are supposed to be unimportant to workers were addressed--and the workers joined community activists in heartily welcoming those who raised them. Martha Grevatt, a Chrysler worker and UAW member from Cleveland, is on the executive board of Pride at Work, the national lesbian/gay/bi/transgender labor organization. She said: "Your struggle is my struggle. "Firestone, B.F. Goodrich, and Goodyear cut their work forces by tens of thousands in northeast Ohio. Caterpillar was the single largest employer in Lake County till they closed their plant. "I'm driving here this morning from Peoria with the caravan, and to the right is the disgusting Caterpillar, which is trying to bust my union ... and to the left is the Cracker Barrel restaurant, which has a policy that they will fire anyone whom they believe to be lesbian or gay. "That's a labor struggle too. No union could stand for that." Pat Tucker, a welfare activist on the NPC staff in New York, called for solidarity between "the two Americas, the working class and the poor ... We have to stop looking at each other as the enemy," she said. "Through division, and only through division, corporate America is beating us down one by one." Rose Lee of the African American women's group Sisters by Choice in Milwaukee told the mostly white Decatur workers: "They say the police are to protect you from me. No, the police are there to prevent you from entering the plant and throwing out the scabs. "Whatever they do to us, in the future they will do to you." Others spoke about how this kind of unity could be of concrete assistance to the Decatur workers. Gloria La Riva, an NPC activist from San Francisco and a member of the Typographical Union, said: "When the Caravan was in Flagstaff, Ariz., we found that the union movement there has been almost destroyed, and we looked for contacts there. ... "We finally found an environmentalist group and gave them the information about your struggle here, and they are going to be supporting the [Staley workers'] Pepsi boycott." Steel Workers Local 8751 Vice President Stevan Kirschbaum of Boston said: "We couldn't bring the whole New England NPC to the war zone, so we brought the war zone to New England. Right about now the New England NPC is in Providence, R.I., in front of a Bridgestone/Firestone plant, raising hell. ... "Then they're going to move on to a Pepsi plant and then leaflet about Caterpillar. That's what a National People's Campaign can do!" HOW TO FIGHT There was talk of strategies that have worked in other major labor struggles. Phil Wilayto of the Job Is a Right Campaign in Milwaukee talked about Camp Solidarity and the takeover that forced the company back to the bargaining table in the Pittson mine strike. Jerry Goldberg from Detroit talked about the plant-gate pickets who have held off scab deliveries in the newspaper strike there. An active-duty G.I. from Northern California discussed the plight of young, unorganized workers. "Many of my friends earn $4.25 an hour," he said. "They have no union, and they have no concept of what a union is. "I worked in a store for a year and I got one raise, to $4.35 an hour, and this is typical of many young people in the work force. My peers in the Army training companies I have been in are not in the army because of patriotism or any such thing. "We are there because we can't survive on the jobs that are available." Larry Holmes, national NPC coordinator, said: "We've been organizing to defeat the Contract Against America. It's a union-busting contract. "We hear so much how welfare has to be `reformed' to keep that teenaged mother from stealing the money from you hard-working people. Well, that's a lie! The purpose of cutting welfare is to push more desperate people into the work force to compete for jobs that aren't there any more. "There seems to be a new wave in the union movement, a waking up to the realization that the only way to succeed is to organize the unorganized. We have to organize the people on workfare. We have to organize prisoners! "There are 1.5 million prisoners, and most of them are forced to work for slave-labor wages, making car parts and modular homes and other things. There should be a Workfare Union and a Prisoners' Union, and they should be part of the AFL-CIO." Will this "new wave" in organized labor extend as far as the broad unity demonstrated at the Decatur rally? Certainly the organizers hope so. The Decatur workers who have suffered so much and fought against the multinationals for so long seem ready for it. Gary Lamb, a traveling organizer or "road warrior" for the Staley workers, said: "If organized labor has a fault, it's that we've kept too much to ourselves. Big business has a network. They work together just fine when it comes to fighting us. "We in organized labor have a responsibility. We all deserve a living wage, whether we pay dues or not." - END - (Copyright Workers World Service: Permission to reprint granted if source is cited. For more information contact Workers World, 55 W. 17 St., NY, NY 10011; via e-mail: ww@wwpublish.com. For subscription info send message to: ww-info@wwpublish.com.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Zweiter Hoyf Subject: Re: Communities Date: Sun Oct 01 13:02:57 CDT 1995 Message number: 47 Reply to message number: 44 ZH> Why look to high tech solutions for interpersonal problems? I realize that ZH> technology can be more exciting than just talking to someone, at first, ZH> but we have found that we have good neighbors here on the East Side of St. ZH> Paul just by actually going to their houses for dinner, etc. Devil's advocate: Why have a refrigerator? After all, if we didnt have one we'd have to make daily trips to the supermarket and run into our neighbors there. The real reason to set aside some parts of the new digital spectrum for "community" activity is that every medium of communication should have that availible. Some people, for whatever reason, cannot or will not take up conversation and recreation with their neigbors. I don't think that Ted Turner and Michale Isner should be the only ones who are allowed access to our living rooms through the copper wires. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MAILER DAEMON To: All Subject: Respect Date: Wed Oct 25 17:22:17 CDT 1995 Message number: 48 Reply to message number: unavailable =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= = F.U.C.K. - Fucked Up College Kids - Born Jan. 24th, 1993 - F.U.C.K. = =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Respect ------- The other night my roomate and I were headed to a local bar we frequent quite often, and as usual we stopped by a nearby gas station so my roomie could get cigarretes. First off, you have to know a little more about him, he is 24 years old, but appears a little younger than I do. He is totally against the government in every way so he has no driver's licence or any form of government paperwork. Occasionally he gets carded for cigs so I often buy them for him since I am 21 and have ID. We pull up to the conoco where I frequently gas up and buy food during lunch breaks. After a 5 minute wait for the guy behind the counter to finish up with a simple purchase I step up and ask for the pack of cigs. He grabbed the cigs and looked at me with doubt in his eye and asked me "Do you have ID?!". The tone of his voice blatantly said "You are way too young and I don't believe you". I showed him my ID and he kinda of nodded then asked me "Don't I always card you?". "No, you've never carded me before". He came back more rudely with "Well, I'm gonna card you everytime". At this point I was really wondering why he was copping such an attitude with me for no reason. I had done nothing to piss him off(yet), and had just been Joe Customer. This had gone a little past him having a bad day or having something against me so I asked him "Why are you copping an attitude with me?" Things went downhill from there and I left with the cigs, bitching at this guy, and as I walked out of the place he kept flipping me off through the window. I plan on talking to their customer service sometime, but it doesn't really matter. The point of all this... There is a single thing left for people in the 'GenX' age group these days.. that single thing is the only thing left for those younger than me. Respect. Think of the generations behind us and what they had to deal with, and what they left us with. Right now, as we are striving to live with bullshit jobs, yuppies are ready to retire after 30 years of an easy deskjob, and looking forward to 20 years of easy retirement. Since these yuppies are retiring in five or so years, that puts us at age 25 - 30. Companies would rather hire people fresh out of college around 21 or 22 years old. That puts us out of the game basically in most of the job market. On top of leaving the GenX age range out of potential jobs, these same yuppies leave us with over 1.5 trillion dollars in debt while they live off savings and mutual funds. Taxes hit us harder and cause our standard of living to go down, while theirs stays the same. On top of fewer jobs, and a more competitive job market, we get to deal with a completely fucked up political system with no bright tunnel at the end. On top of having to deal with it, most of us have no desire to sink ourselves into the corruption that is prevalent in the system. After the political system, we get to deal with the environment since our parents have been plundering our resources unmercifully for years. Another fun thing we get to deal with is social security. Basically, there is not enough money in reserve to pay for my social security when it is time for me to collect. With all this bearing down on people my age, we have to wonder what is left for our generation? Respect. That is the only thing that we can honestly demand from anyone else. Not so much pure respect, but at least common courtesy and basic respect toward others that haven't wronged you. When someone refuses to give you fundamental respect, they are worth absolutely nothing, and are meaningless in society. Just like the chimp that I dealt with at the gas station, these people are getting to be more and more prevalent in today's society. I understand if yuppies and older people deny us any respect, but from one GenX'er to another, that should be the one thing you are willing to show since we have nothing else. The other thing to remember, is if you deny someone respect, and that is the only thing left, be prepared to suffer any consequences for doing so. If you show someone that it is a cruel world, and you don't give a shit, they may show it back in other ways. DisordeR =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= = Questions, Comments, Bitches, Ideas, Rants, Death Threats, etc etc... = = Internet : jericho@netcom.com = =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= = Chemical Persuasion 203.324.0894 Celestial Woodlands 214.252.6455 = = Ionic Destruction 215.722.0570 Hacker's Haven 303.343.4053 = = E.L.F. (NUP) 314.272.3426 Misery 318.625.4532 = = Dungeon Sys. Inc. 410.263.2258 Psykodelik Images 407.834.4576 = = Digital Fallout 516.378.6640 Plan 9 716.881.3663 = = Deadly Intoxication 801.553.8644 Purple Hell 806.791.0747 = = Logikal Nonsence 814.861.7282 PuRe EViL (NUP) 905.XXX.XXXX = = The Keg 914.234.9674 = =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= = Files through Anonymous FTP: FTP.NETCOM.COM - cd /pub/il/illusion/fuck = = FTP.FC.NET - cd /pub/deadkat/misc/fuck = = ADS112.RH.PSU.EDU - cd /pub/magazines/fuck = = FTP.WINTERNET.COM - cd /users/craigb/fuck = = http://www.ora.com:8080/johnl/e-zine-list/zines/fuck.html = =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SAINT VITUS To: Mailer Daemon Subject: Re: Respect Date: Thu Oct 26 07:50:56 CDT 1995 Message number: 49 Reply to message number: 48 MD> Think of the generations behind us and what they had to deal with, MD> and what they left us with. Right now, as we are striving to live with This has been the complaint of the young since time began. I'm not dissing the individual because I've gone on record saying somewhat the same thing ages and ages ago. :) But at some point you have to grow up. 1st - realizing that you aren't separate and distinct from society and government. You play a role, have since you were born, and will continue to for the rest of your life. If you're blaming your parents for your troubles, you are still a child. 2nd - generational politics are the choice of those who haven't got sense enough to confront the real issues yet. Just because someone is older than you, just because they have a desk job... these are not the qualities of your enemy. Just because someone was born 25 years earlier doesn't make them any different than you are. The abuses this person talked about were accomplished by wealthy people without long-term perspective or ethics. Choose your enemies carefully, or you'll make some of those who would have been your friends. Blah blah blah. One guy's rant. -=$aint Vitu$=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Saint Vitus Subject: Re: Respect Date: Thu Oct 26 09:08:16 CDT 1995 Message number: 50 Reply to message number: 49 MD> Think of the generations behind us and what they had to deal with, MD> and what they left us with. Right now, as we are striving to live with SV> SV> This has been the complaint of the young since time began. I'm not dissing SV> the individual because I've gone on record saying somewhat the same thing a SV> and ages ago. :) Youth versus Age, the immortal struggle ... where the grass is always wilted on the other side. SV> by wealthy people without long-term perspective or ethics. Choose your enem SV> carefully, or you'll make some of those who would have been your friends. Agreed. It's no more correct to blame the "baby boomers" for the national debt/crumbling infrastructure than it is to blame Germans for the holocaust. Some fought against the wrongdoings of others, some sat idly by and others actively participated. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TWELFTHNIGHT To: Mailer Daemon Subject: Re: Respect Date: Mon Oct 30 11:05:27 CST 1995 Message number: 51 Reply to message number: 48 MD> do. He is totally against the government in every way so he has no driver's MD> licence or any form of government paperwork. Occasionally he gets carded MD> for cigs so I often buy them for him since I am 21 and have ID. Maybe this just me, but - Against the gov't, but just fine with handing money over to Tobacco companies to get him addicted to a carcinogen .. I'll go with the paperwork and keep my health. 12! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THROCKMORTON To: ALL Subject: Handguns Date: Tue Jan 14 12:20:39 CST 1997 Message number: 52 Reply to message number: unavailable From the January 1997 Reason Magazine "In 1973 Arthur Robert McCray bought a new Smith & Wesson revolver from a Florida gun dealer. In 1984 Stephen Mashney bought the used revolver, and the following year moved to northern California, where a burglar stole the gun from his home in July 1992. Two weeks later a 16 year old used the revolver to murder David Johnstone, a New York book editor who was in San Francisco on business, shooting him in the back during an attempted robbery. In 1995 the victim's wife, Tina Johnstone, sued Smith & Wesson in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of New York, arguing that the company should have known something like this was bound to happen ....." --- ž OLX 1.53 ž If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Throckmorton Subject: Re: Handguns Date: Wed Jan 15 06:22:20 CST 1997 Message number: 53 Reply to message number: 52 T> "In 1973 Arthur Robert McCray bought a new Smith & Wesson revolver from T> a Florida gun dealer. In 1984 Stephen Mashney bought the used revolver, T> and the following year moved to northern California, where a burglar T> stole the gun from his home in July 1992. Two weeks later a 16 year old T> used the revolver to murder David Johnstone, a New York book editor who T> was in San Francisco on business, shooting him in the back during an T> attempted robbery. In 1995 the victim's wife, Tina Johnstone, sued T> Smith & Wesson in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of T> New York, arguing that the company should have known something like this T> was bound to happen ....." * i sure go back and forth on this issue, throcky. on one hand, i can be hard-line no-handguns- after all, there *is* no other purpose for them but to kill humans- and on the other hand, can say, f'r goddess' sake, get some RESPONSIBILITY here- a person can use a brick or a coke bottle to murder someone too, if they've a mind to... -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Cosima Subject: Re: Handguns Date: Wed Jan 15 17:58:36 CST 1997 Message number: 54 Reply to message number: 53 C> i sure go back and forth on this issue, throcky. on one hand, i can be C> hard-line no-handguns- after all, there *is* no other purpose for them but t C> kill humans- and on the other hand, can say, f'r goddess' sake, get some C> RESPONSIBILITY here- a person can use a brick or a coke bottle to murder C> someone too, if they've a mind to... Yep, but the problem is the sense of *power* one gets from a gun, compared to a knife or a broken bottle. JUst as you don't see many 16 year-old hotheads doing 360s in the parking lot with their Yugos, you don't see many testosterone-pumped jerks causing trouble with butched knives and rusty needles. MY take on the whole gun thing, though, is just to keept eh laws abo ut the same as they are now ... but make sure the damned things are registered, and make sure the people who get them have at least some rudimentary knwledge on how to keep them safe and clean and out of the hands of their kids. With that answered though, one last question ... why won't my damned arrow keys work anymore? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Handguns Date: Thu Jan 16 15:13:19 CST 1997 Message number: 55 Reply to message number: 54 C> i sure go back and forth on this issue, throcky. on one hand, i can be C> hard-line no-handguns- after all, there *is* no other purpose for them but t C> kill humans- and on the other hand, can say, f'r goddess' sake, get some C> RESPONSIBILITY here- a person can use a brick or a coke bottle to murder C> someone too, if they've a mind to... Dead right on both issues, Cosima (pardon the pun). But I don't see why your first position should conflict with your second one. Sure, it's possible to kill with a brick or a Coke bottle, but neither of those items were designed with that in mind. Guns, it can be argued, have no other use than to kill people (unless you want to argue that gunsmithing is an art form; not a bad argument, but not good enough, in my opinion). I myself am in a continual state of confusion over our society that forbids people from selling sex but allows them to sell death. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: Handguns Date: Sun Jan 19 17:10:40 CST 1997 Message number: 56 Reply to message number: 55 DT> I myself am in a continual state of confusion over our society that forbids DT> people from selling sex but allows them to sell death. * good point. sigh. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: ALL Subject: Religious Tyranny Date: Fri May 02 17:13:14 CDT 1997 Message number: 57 Reply to message number: unavailable Ä Area: CHURCH&STATE ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ From: David Bloomberg Read: Yes Replied: No Subj: Religious Tyranny Amendme ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ From the Chicago Tribune, 3/27/97: THE REAL EFFECT OF A RELIGIOUS FREEDOM AMENDMENT By Steven Chapman It's 1998, and in an all-black public high school on Chicago's South Side, the student body, inspired by the teachings of Louis Farrakhan, has adorned the walls with Black Muslim writings, invited Farrakhan to give the invocation at graduation ceremonies and erected a statue of Elijah Muhammad at the school's entrance. If you like this scenario, you'll love the Religious Freedom Amendment. The proposed constitutional revision was unveiled last week by Rep. Ernest Istook, an Oklahoma Republican, with the support of the Christian Coalition, which plans to spend at least $1 million pushing it. They claim the Supreme Court is determined to suppress religious freedom in public schools and other public arenas. "This is to restore the protection of our precious religious freedoms and liberties, which have been eroded by a steady onslaught of court decisions," declared Istook, insisting that the courts "have aided a systematic campaign to strip religious symbols, references and heritage from the public stage." His amendment is an effort by Christian conservatives to force their faith down the throats of everyone else. Having never accepted the 1st Amendment's limits on government sponsorship of faith, they are prepared to mutilate the Constitution to eliminate those restrictions. The Christian Coalition betrays its contempt for the 1st Amendment in a letter endorsing the Istook amendment. "The Supreme Court has censored free speech in only three areas: inciting violence and insurrection, obscenity and religious free speech," it contends. "It is absurd for the Supreme Court to equate people expressing their faith in God with the same standard as pornography and overthrowing the government." But the mandate for "censorship" of religious speech is not some perverse invention of the Supreme Court (unlike, say, the obscenity exception). It's right there in the text of the Constitution, which says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." The clause means that the government may not provide financial subsidies to churches and may not say--explicitly or implicitly, in word or deed--that religion in general or any religion in particular is the true way. Supporters of the Istook amendment say the court's application of the establishment clause has stifled religious liberty. The outrages they cite, though, are mostly cases where local school officials have misunderstood the court's rulings. A favorite example is the girl who got a zero on a research paper because she wrote about the life of Jesus. But in that case, the grade was corrected as soon as someone complained--which is the usual outcome in these supposed horror stories. As the Education Department's guidelines make clear, students are free to wear religious T-shirts, bring Bibles to school and study religious subjects. The limits apply only where people want to enlist state power on behalf of religion. A public school teacher is free, on her own time, to hand out Bibles to people on the street--but not to hand out Bibles to a captive audience of schoolchildren, who are bound to interpret the gift as the school's endorsement of Christianity. Nor may the school allow a majority of students to vote to pass out Bibles or recite a daily prayer over classroom loudspeakers. The Istook amendment would change all that. It would guarantee the "right to pray or acknowledge religious belief, heritage or tradition on public property, including public schools." Students may already pray individually or in groups on their own time at school. This proposal would let students and parents demand that devotionals be incorporated into classes, assemblies, graduation ceremonies and sports events. Non-believers would have to endure the prayers or publicly brand themselves as infidels. They're not the only ones who would suffer. What if you're a Catholic child in a predominantly fundamentalist school? Or a Jewish child in a mostly Catholic school? Under this amendment, Louis Farrakhan's disciples would enjoy the constitutional right to have public schools "acknowledge" their religious beliefs. Steven McFarland, general counsel of the Christian Legal Society, told The Washington Post that the city council of Salt Lake City could use tax funds to erect a statue of Brigham Young--while the Seattle city council could erect a shrine to the Earth Goddess. That helps explain why the amendment is opposed by such Christian organizations as the Southern Baptist Convention and the National Association of Evangelicals. They see that letting religious groups contest for the government's seal of approval is an invitation to strife, not an expansion of liberty. They also understand that Christians may regret enacting an amendment that would free the government to promote not only true religions but false ones. -!- msgedsq 2.0.5 ! Origin: If you make them think, the masses will hate you. (1:2430/2112) ... Colonialist motto: "For the never ending quest."--- Blue Wave/TG v2.20 ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR]