------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Subject Date: Fri Jan 20 18:56:59 CST 1995 Message number: 1 Reply to message number: unavailable As this base implies, this is a place to discuss the human animal. What makes us different from the other animals? Is there some divine fire raging inside of us, or are we simply a little better than the other higher primates? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JAIZMAIN To: Sinclair Subject: Re: sex change Date: Tue Nov 07 05:24:49 CST 1995 Message number: 2 Reply to message number: 0 S> I was watching some talk show today that was about sex changes. One of the S> guys that wants to have the sex-change operation to become a Woman, was S> responding to the comment of a guy in the audience...who said that they were S> born a man they should be a man...he/she answered that aren't S> like this so people can make fun of them, and go on talk shows so people can S> ridicule them, and this IS the way they are. I think it these things can be understood if you accept the idea of a continuum with Ultimate Masculinity on one end, and Ultimate Feminiity on the other; physical traits and psychological traits following along the continuum. There is a human who lines up with every point along the line. Another theory might be a reincarnation idea that we, in our present life, fulfill our potential to some degree. Our next life is predetermined in so far as what we will be(M/F), who we will know, what we will do; i.e., the details of this world's influence on us. But we, to the extent that we fulfill our past life's potential, contain the residual; i.e., the details of our ability to interact with the outside world. Thus, if we had been female, last life, but died early, or did not maximize our potential, we will retain the difference between potential fulfillment and actual fulfillment in this life. Or maybe we exceeded our potential by such a degree that what we carry into this life similarly does not jive with the realities of our external identity. Jaizmain ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SIGNAL MAN To: SINCLAIR Subject: Re: sex change Date: Tue Nov 07 17:15:12 CST 1995 Message number: 3 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Sinclair to All <=- Si> wrong. What? Did someone die and make us God? (These people weren't Si> using Government money to get their operations either, they were Si> trying to come up with their own). So what do you guys think? (If Si> this sounds a little weird, it's because it's late, and I couldn't Si> sleep) The real problem here is the bullshit the homophobic public injects into the societal norm. Who is to say what is "normal", it's very true that someone could be "born" with conflicting internal feelings ( for the lack of a better word). Who's to say that being born with a penis isn't a genetic fuckup, only society. This is why there is racism, sexisn, homophobia, complete dominance by closed minded society. . . This is what is teaching your children. . . ... Catch the Blue Wave! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JAIZMAIN To: Signal Man Subject: Re: sex change Date: Wed Nov 08 22:37:59 CST 1995 Message number: 4 Reply to message number: 3 SM> complete dominance by closed minded society. . . Narrow minded humans. Those people, who, like us, have nothing better to think about than the obvious superficial distinctions of peoples. Like us, in that, since we are human, we also contain the tendency we, who are enlightened, can criticize. But only until THEY piss us off. Then it is THEY who are the problem, not us. Jaizmain ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SIGNAL MAN To: JAIZMAIN Subject: Re: sex change Date: Sun Nov 12 17:08:01 CST 1995 Message number: 5 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Jaizmain to Signal Man <=- Ja> Narrow minded humans. Those people, who, like us, have nothing better Ja> to think about than the obvious superficial distinctions of peoples. Ja> Like us, in that, since we are human, we also contain the tendency we, Ja> who are enlightened, can criticize. But only until THEY piss us off. Ja> Then it is THEY who are the problem, not us. I love your use of comma's, it is somehow refreshingly familiar. . . ;) ... Catch the Blue Wave! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WRONG ONE To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: The "Perfect World" Date: Thu Nov 16 15:33:54 CST 1995 Message number: 6 Reply to message number: -830 I have a lot of ideals that would qualify as a perfect world. However, think of this; Suppose you created your perfect world....what would you bitch about, discuss, try to change, and rebel against? I guess my perfect world would be if every one (human and otherwise) had a chance to live their lives as they wished, use the skills they were born with, and where all had a chance to believe in themselfs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JAIZMAIN To: Wrong One Subject: Re: The "Perfect World" Date: Thu Nov 16 19:12:51 CST 1995 Message number: 7 Reply to message number: 2 WO> I guess my perfect world would be if every one (human and otherwise) had WO> chance to live their lives as they wished, use the skills they were born wi WO> and where all had a chance to believe in themselfs. and, maybe, a world where each individual could fulfill all that they were born to be. Jaizmain ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SINCLAIR To: Signal Man Subject: Re: sex change Date: Sat Nov 18 08:46:07 CST 1995 Message number: 8 Reply to message number: 3 SM> fuckup, only society. This is why there is racism, sexisn, homophobia, SM> complete dominance by closed minded society. . . SM> SM> This is what is teaching your children. . . Yeah, it's a real shame, huh? I mean it's pretty bad that I can't tell my children that I'm gay, yet. I mean, I've told my oldest daughter and she's 11 and pretty smart and able to get the gist of it. But I haven't told my son, yet, 9...I'm not sure how he would take it. My youngest girl, 5, is just too young and it wouldn't make sense to her. But my ex doesn't want me to tell them at all. I think that's stupid. It's my business and I have to tell them sometime. I mean, it doesnt' make any sense to lie to them. Yet society sits around and tell everyone what to do. These are reasons that I don't believe in God anymore and I don't care what people think about me. Personally, I know that I'm a really nice person, and like people and I don't care what anyone does as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. I suppose I ascribe to the notion of "Live and let live" more or less. I mean, what is it with people. I don't care if you belive in God or not...but if I tell someone I don't then they try to convince me to believe. I don't try to convince anyone to disblieve! What is up with that? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JAIZMAIN To: Sinclair Subject: Re: sex change Date: Sat Nov 18 11:12:51 CST 1995 Message number: 9 Reply to message number: 8 S> sometime. I mean, it doesnt' make any sense to lie to them. Yet society si S> around and tell everyone what to do. These are reasons that I don't believe S> in God anymore and I don't care what people think about me. Personally, I S> know that I'm a really nice person, and like people and I don't care what I think the secret to raising children is consistency. If nothing else, remain consistent. But, maybe more important, is honesty. Being something you are not blocks the real flow of your energy, and keeps you from growing. The most important thing we can teach to our children is in our actions. Children can sense the completeness of the act. They can see the strengths and the weaknesses. Best to be honest and consistent. Jaizmain ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Sinclair Subject: Re: sex change Date: Sat Nov 18 13:24:42 CST 1995 Message number: 10 Reply to message number: 8 S> Yeah, it's a real shame, huh? I mean it's pretty bad that I can't tell my S> children that I'm gay, yet. I mean, I've told my oldest daughter and she's Maybe not. You can teach them about love, which is a different thing from sex and many children are not told about either. S> sometime. I mean, it doesnt' make any sense to lie to them. Yet society si S> around and tell everyone what to do. These are reasons that I don't believe Not as far as they are concerned, but they may have to deal with other people's stupidity and bigotry. You need to be careful that they can deal with this. But you know that, bucause you seem to be encountering it yourself. S> in God anymore and I don't care what people think about me. Personally, I S> know that I'm a really nice person, and like people and I don't care what I believe that God made you the way you are and loves you. We may not understand why, but we are only human. S> notion of "Live and let live" more or less. I mean, what is it with people. S> I don't care if you belive in God or not...but if I tell someone I don't the Another slant on it. They believe you are a sinner and if you would only accept God, he would "fix" you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ZWEITER HOYF To: Jaizmain Subject: Re: The "Perfect World" Date: Sun Nov 19 05:04:52 CST 1995 Message number: 11 Reply to message number: unavailable J> WO> I guess my perfect world would be if every one (human and otherwise) J> WO> chance to live their lives as they wished, use the skills they were bor J> WO> and where all had a chance to believe in themselfs. J> J> and, maybe, a world where each individual could fulfill all that they were J> born to be. J> Jaizmain I would say a world in which people are allowed to find what their potential i and pursue it. "the pursuit of happiness" as it were. --- ž NFX V1.2 [Freeware] Graphic Offline Mail Reader. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Zweiter Hoyf Subject: Re: The "Perfect World" Date: Sun Nov 19 05:30:26 CST 1995 Message number: 12 Reply to message number: 11 J> and, maybe, a world where each individual could fulfill all that they were J> born to be. ZH> I would say a world in which people are allowed to find what their potentia ZH> and pursue it. "the pursuit of happiness" as it were. ZH> We already have a world where people can "pursue" happiness. A perfect world would be wgere they could achieve it without being blocked by illness, other peoples' actions, lack of money and opportunity, etc. Allowing pursuit is easy. Allowing accomplishment means that you may lose a little money because someone wants to compete with you and succeeds at it. Not so easy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ZWEITER HOYF To: Froggy Subject: Re: The "Perfect World" Date: Tue Nov 21 01:41:08 CST 1995 Message number: 13 Reply to message number: unavailable F> F> ZH> I would say a world in which people are allowed to find what their pote F> ZH> and pursue it. "the pursuit of happiness" as it were. F> ZH> F> We already have a world where people can "pursue" happiness. A F> perfect world would be wgere they could achieve it without being blocked by F> illness, other peoples' actions, lack of money and opportunity, etc. Allow F> pursuit is easy. Allowing accomplishment means that you may lose a little F> money because someone wants to compete with you and succeeds at it. Not so F> easy. Left unstated, but I meant to imply that people would be able to pursue their happiness without the same blocks. --- ž NFX V1.2 [Freeware] Graphic Offline Mail Reader. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JAIZMAIN To: Zweiter Hoyf Subject: Re: The "Perfect World" Date: Tue Nov 28 22:06:45 CST 1995 Message number: 14 Reply to message number: 11 J> and, maybe, a world where each individual could fulfill all that they were J> born to be. J> Jaizmain ZH> I would say a world in which people are allowed to find what their potenti ZH> and pursue it. "the pursuit of happiness" as it were. Are you correcting my semantics? Jaizmain ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ZWEITER HOYF To: Jaizmain Subject: Re: The "Perfect World" Date: Tue Dec 12 08:41:37 CST 1995 Message number: 15 Reply to message number: 14 J> and, maybe, a world where each individual could fulfill all that they were J> born to be. J> Jaizmain J> ZH> I would say a world in which people are allowed to find what their potenti ZH> and pursue it. "the pursuit of happiness" as it were. J> J> Are you correcting my semantics? Nope, just adding on ... so few people know their potential is - zweiter hoyf is a good example of this. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MAILER DAEMON To: All Subject: Self-made man Date: Sat Dec 16 04:56:44 CST 1995 Message number: 16 Reply to message number: unavailable From: dmytrik@mail.north.net (Quirk) Subject: On The Poverty of The Self Made Man. In their ignorance and vanity many men declare themselves self made. They believe that they have no out standing debts. They are solely responsible for their prosperity They owe nothing to their societal environment. They have benefited from the labours of the forefathers of those they declare unworthy. They happily exploit the books, the buildings, the techniques, the institutions, and the teachings from the collective wealth. They do not begrudge themselves the resources of the planet or the generosity and ingenuity of their ancestors Yet they insist they are self made, for these things they shall not share with the other descendants of their creditors. The animal that is man is no longer on an individual path in its evolution, our evolution is no longer that of our bodies or even our individual minds. The evolution of man is the evolution of our societal agencies, it is our communities, institutions, and our collective conscious that give us prosperity and strength. No modern man can take complete credit for his accomplishments, as nothing could have been accomplished with the sweat and blood of many previous centuries of human lives. But the self made man thinks the he is the sole heir to the fortunes of our history, he believes that because he has industriously worked for his own self interest that he is without debt. He does not acknowledge that without strengthening and developing the societal body that promotes our evolution, he is merely an irrelevant lifeform. Poverty Indeed. ..... Dmytri Kleiner (Quirk) dmytrik@mail.north.net PS: Oh, Nevermind. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: All Subject: Grinch & Santa Date: Wed Dec 20 16:46:51 CST 1995 Message number: 17 Reply to message number: unavailable I'm sure many of you have heard this story, but I think it is worth posting for the benefit of those who haven't. Last night the evening news announced that a burglar (Grinch) had broken into a Community Center and stolen all the wrapped Christmas presents intended for tonight's Christmas party. They even stole the Santa Clause suit. The children were told that there was still a party, but Santa might not be able to make it with presents. Early this morning, cars and trucks started dropping off toys at the center. One donor donated $1,000 worth. Neighbors and community policemen came and wrapped presents all day. By the time the party started this evening, there were more than enough for those children and the extras were sent to Toys for Tots. The Grinch had gotten away with about $600 worth of toys, and today $7000 worth was donated. Talk about loaves and fishes! With all the distressing and negative things that are happening, it SURE is nice to hear of positive things once in a while. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CAPTAIN TEEBO To: Froggy Subject: Re: Grinch & Santa Date: Thu Dec 21 09:02:39 CST 1995 Message number: 18 Reply to message number: 17 F> With all the distressing and negative things that are happening, it F> SURE is nice to hear of positive things once in a while. :) Yeah, that is a pretty neat story. :) Thanks for sharing that.. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Froggy Subject: Re: Grinch & Santa Date: Thu Dec 21 15:51:53 CST 1995 Message number: 19 Reply to message number: 17 F> sent to Toys for Tots. The Grinch had gotten away with about $600 worth of F> toys, and today $7000 worth was donated. Talk about loaves and fishes! F> With all the distressing and negative things that are happening, it F> SURE is nice to hear of positive things once in a while. :) I heard about that, too. While it's nice to hear, it also makes me somewhat sad ... that a lot of people only become generous when bizarre tragedy strikes (ie: natural disaster and newsworthy crimes). I guess I'm sort of a "the glass isn't half empty, someone stole the other half!" type person today :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Grinch & Santa Date: Thu Dec 21 17:07:32 CST 1995 Message number: 20 Reply to message number: 18 DR> I guess I'm sort of a "the glass isn't half empty, someone stole the other DR> half!" type person today :) I agree. As I was watching this piece, the thought that was goung through my mind was. "Why the hell didn't they do it in the first place?" Oprah Winfrey's show on the same day was about really serious issues involving children/hunger/illness because of poverty. She ended the show by saying "It is easy to get emotional and feel generous during the holiday season. But these children need to eat EVERY day." That is partly why I made the comment about all the negativity. It irritates me that people will not work together to make things better all the time and for all of us. I really believe it could be done, if people would quit being so selfish and realize that true wealth for them also would be to not have other people hungry and deprived. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DUCKY To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: better or worse? Date: Mon Jan 15 05:08:21 CST 1996 Message number: 21 Reply to message number: -84 ^1-=> Quoting The Invisible Man to Lil' Imo <=- Fr> This is a relative question. Since the book of Psalme is part of Fr> the Olt Testament, I know quite a few people who reject it entirely. LI> LI> I don't see how you can 'reject' something from the bible, it is a book LI> composed of myths and storys that your supposed to learn and gain wisdom LI> from. Its not a book of facts. I have to disagree in saying that it is a book of myths, it is a book of stories that are the honest to God truth! Also, they wisdom you gain is from God. The Bible is the Word of God and therefore the wisdom is God's wisdom. Am I not right? =Duckman= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CAPTAIN TEEBO To: DUCKY Subject: Re: better or worse? Date: Mon Jan 15 09:50:51 CST 1996 Message number: 22 Reply to message number: unavailable Du> I have to disagree in saying that it is a book of myths, it is a book Du> of stories that are the honest to God truth! Also, they wisdom you Du> gain is from God. The Bible is the Word of God and therefore the Du> wisdom is God's wisdom. Am I not right? Yes, you are not right. You are a nut. Unfortunatly, I cannot respond to this adequatly seeing as how most of my referances are on loan to a friend for study, so please excuse me if this is lacking in challenging content and specific citings. I will get back to you with more. In the old testament, God kills a whole lot of people. In one case, a group of people have been surviving on mana for quite sometime, so finally they ask "God" for some meat. He mopes a little bit, but then figures that since they have been such good followers that he will give them meat. He gives them meat. Then later on he decides to kill them for kicks. In the bible it states that only 144,000 people will EVER get to heaven. Thes people "must not have defiled themselves with women", we can then assume that they cannot be lesbians, or WOMEN for that matter. Try telling that to your wife/girlfriend/daughter/mom/grandmother. In Eziekiel, "God", as punishment, makes him lay on his left side for thirteen months. During this time he can only eat (something, forget) with human dung. Eziekiel protests, so this "God" relents and lets him eat with cow dung instead. Wow, that wacky God. Also, in a book by an apostle (John, I believe), remarks that NO ONE has ever seen God. The entire old testament disagrees. I would like to see you prove that anything with relation to God cited in the bible ever happened, if you are so sure that these stories are "fact" as you so call them. Du> =Duckman= Your handle that you logged on under is "Ducky", if you have not yet noticed "Duckman" is taken. I would appreciate if you would cease in adding this tag to avoid confusion if it's not much trouble, thanks. *teebo ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Ducky Subject: Re: Truth, domain of ...? Date: Tue Jan 16 08:09:49 CST 1996 Message number: 23 Reply to message number: 21 LI> I don't see how you can 'reject' something from the bible, it is a book LI> composed of myths and storys that your supposed to learn and gain wisdom LI> from. Its not a book of facts. D> I have to disagree in saying that it is a book of myths, it is a book of D> stories that are the honest to God truth! Also, they wisdom you gain is from D> God. The Bible is the Word of God and therefore the wisdom is God's wisdom. D> I not right? Logically, your argument is circular. You're trying to prove the bible's validity by backing it up with god, and trying to prove God's existance by backing it up with the bible. Nothing wrong with belief in God or some higher power, but I don't think you (or anyone I know of) can state with absolute certainty that the bible is either entirely true or false ... faith is not the same as proof. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Captain Teebo Subject: Re: 144,000 Date: Tue Jan 16 08:11:21 CST 1996 Message number: 24 Reply to message number: 22 CT> In the bible it states that only 144,000 people will EVER get to heaven. T This is one of the tenets of the Jehovah's Witness religion. Apparently, when you meet one of the 144,000 it's quite an event. How do they know who's really going to Heavan? Don't ask me. Must be one of those mystical things. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LUCIUS SULLA To: ? Subject: Re: 144,000 Date: Wed Jan 17 00:24:13 CST 1996 Message number: 25 Reply to message number: 24 DR> This is one of the tenets of the Jehovah's Witness religion. Apparently, w DR> you meet one of the 144,000 it's quite an event. DR> DR> How do they know who's really going to Heavan? Don't ask me. Must be one o DR> those mystical things. Meeting one is not that big of a deal, I was raised as one so I've had some opportunities. It also gave me invaluable insights into how cults (as it is a quasi-cult, although with enough of a following to be accepted as a religion) behave. Yes, I was raised as one, but I am much better now. LCS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Lucius Sulla Subject: Re: 144,000 Date: Wed Jan 17 04:15:44 CST 1996 Message number: 26 Reply to message number: 25 DR> This is one of the tenets of the Jehovah's Witness religion. Apparently, w DR> you meet one of the 144,000 it's quite an event. DR> LS> Meeting one is not that big of a deal, I was raised as one so I've had some LS> opportunities. It also gave me invaluable insights into how cults (as it is LS> quasi-cult, although with enough of a following to be accepted as a religio LS> behave. LS> The discussion was about meeting one of the 144,000 who are going to heaven, not a Jehovah's Witness. Admittedly, the JH Church may thik that they're one in the same, but other religions don't. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EUROPA To: Lucius Sulla Subject: Re: 144,000 Date: Wed Jan 17 13:48:51 CST 1996 Message number: 27 Reply to message number: 25 LS> Meeting one is not that big of a deal, I was raised as one so I've had some LS> opportunities. It also gave me invaluable insights into how cults (as it is LS> quasi-cult, although with enough of a following to be accepted as a religio LS> behave. I've heard a lot of people refer to the JWs as a cult, but I'm not sure why. It doesn't quite fit the criteria for a cult. Could you explain this further? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Ducky Subject: Re: better or worse? Date: Thu Jan 18 03:15:46 CST 1996 Message number: 28 Reply to message number: 21 D> I have to disagree in saying that it is a book of myths, it is a book of D> stories that are the honest to God truth! Also, they wisdom you gain is from D> God. The Bible is the Word of God and therefore the wisdom is God's wisdom. D> I not right? Well think about this; the bible is extremely old, and has been transilated many times. Don't you think it could have kinda LOST a few things. And who knows, the people who recorded it might have forgotten some things, and added some things. Never know... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Starfox Subject: Re: better or worse? Date: Thu Jan 18 04:50:27 CST 1996 Message number: 29 Reply to message number: 28 S> Well think about this; the bible is extremely old, and has been transilated S> many times. Don't you think it could have kinda LOST a few things. And who S> knows, the people who recorded it might have forgotten some things, and adde S> some things. Never know... Like,for example, the definition of the word "virgin." When the Bible was written, they did not understand the rather medical definition of it that we do. The Latin word "virginis" simply means "young woman" Latin for the virgin we understand is "hymenis intacta." In the ancient Jewish culture, a woman was considered a virgin until she had borne a son. She could have 6 daughters and still be a "virgin". I think that there are a olt of truths in the Bible, but like the incident at the Tower of Babel, God did not intend for us to get it easily. In order to really understand the Bible it is necessary to learn about the culture that gave rise to it, and oh yes, master 3 "dead" languages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Europa Subject: Re: 144,000 Date: Sat Jan 20 15:22:11 CST 1996 Message number: 30 Reply to message number: 27 LS> Meeting one is not that big of a deal, I was raised as one so I've had some LS> opportunities. It also gave me invaluable insights into how cults (as it is LS> quasi-cult, although with enough of a following to be accepted as a religio LS> behave. E> I've heard a lot of people refer to the JWs as a cult, but I'm not sure why E> It doesn't quite fit the criteria for a cult. Could you explain this furthe Maybe not a real cult, but they do have some cultish mannerisms. One of my friends in high school was a Jevovah's Witness (Jovo). How does a child gain status as a Jovo? By devoting their time to the religion, going door to door "witnessing" and such. The more time they devote to the church, the better they are recieved in the Jovo community. What about a kid who wants to live a normal life? Not really possible. Friends outside the Jovo order are frowned upon. What if a young adult wants to leave? No problem. But if he/she wants back in, they have to spend a year of "isolation" with little contact with Jovo friends nor non-Jovo friends. Assumedly, this is to help prevent contamination. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CAPTAIN TEEBO To: DAEDALUS RISING Subject: Re: 144,000 Date: Sun Jan 21 04:31:34 CST 1996 Message number: 31 Reply to message number: unavailable DR> How do they know who's really going to Heavan? Don't ask me. Must be DR> one of those mystical things. Well you just ask one and they'll tell you. I think it's one of two things, or both. 1. They are going to heaven, so God leaks information to them about who else is as well so they know who to be polite to seeing as how they'll have to spend an eternity with them. 2. They have a list. Yep, that's right, just like Santa Claus. A naughty and nice deal, you know? *teebo ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EUROPA To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: 144,000 Date: Sun Jan 21 05:48:07 CST 1996 Message number: 32 Reply to message number: 30 DR> Maybe not a real cult, but they do have some cultish mannerisms. One of my DR> friends in high school was a Jevovah's Witness (Jovo). DR> DR> How does a child gain status as a Jovo? By devoting their time to the DR> religion, going door to door "witnessing" and such. The more time they DR> devote to the church, the better they are recieved in the Jovo community. DR> DR> What about a kid who wants to live a normal life? Not really possible. DR> Friends outside the Jovo order are frowned upon. DR> DR> What if a young adult wants to leave? No problem. But if he/she wants back DR> in, they have to spend a year of "isolation" with little contact with Jovo I would agree that this seems a little cultish, but being a member of a minority religion myself, I tend to have a kind of a knee jerk reaction to the term cult being loosely applied. :) Actually, I think this is the same for a lot of religions, except the isolation part when re-entering the community. Parents who adhere to a religious belief and look to their religious community are bound to bring their kids in as soon as they're able. They're bringing their children up in that religion and want the kids to participate in the community. Friends made outside the community are bound to get the short shrift just by nature of the fact that they're not include in the community and there isn't much *time* to play with kids you have to make time to see. Plus, some parents are paranoid that if their kid plays with the little Catholic or Jewish kid down the street, they kids will begin to talk about their respective church/synagogue activities and questions are bound to come up. Some parents really *hate* that. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: QUICKSAND To: All Subject: A Force of Nature Date: Tue Feb 13 16:37:22 CST 1996 Message number: 33 Reply to message number: unavailable ------------------------------------- Ever So Slightly, A Force Of Nature a poem composed by Logan Quinn When I wake up I go to the can and take a leak I flush and the fluids flow down the sewer pipes they flow into the sewers, and thru the cleaning filters and out into the mighty Mississippi, adding to it's volume My small act will change the course of this river, ever so slightly For I am Man, and I am a force of nature I go outside to pick up the paper I breath the fresh morning air, and exhale my breath, ever so slightly, changes the direction of the wind and this change is translated into the lower level winds and still further to the upper level winds, and finally to the Jet Stream My small act will change the course of the weather, ever so slightly For I am Man, and I am a force of nature I go for a stroll after breakfast as my foot steps fall, they vibrate the ground some ground is compacted, while some is loosened I dig in the garden, to plant a flower, in the process I pull out a weed I mow the grass, and till my garden, and plant my vegetables, which I water My small act will change the face of the earth, ever so slightly For I am Man, and I am a force of nature I type a poem, and post it on the internet others read it, reflect upon it as they read this their train of thought is interrupted as they read this I'm changing their very though processes some may boil with anger, while others smile in slight bemusement My small act will change the course of your life, ever so slightly For I am Man, and I am a force of nature I go to bed, and cuddle with my wife we share ourselves, with pleasure and delight we bring a child into the world, and raise it right our child grows, and makes friends, engages in politics, to make amends My small act will change the course of history, ever so slightly For I am Man, and I am a force of nature But, I am but one of many, one out of 6 billion or so and my small actions are nothing compared to the combined acts of the rest we act, react, and interact, with each other and the world on which we live eventually we may leave this world, and spread across the universe And our combined actions will change the universe, ever so slightly For we are Man, and we are a force of nature Ever so slightly by Logan Quinn ----------------------/es ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MAILER DAEMON To: All Subject: Gorby at the Crossroads Date: Wed Feb 14 13:23:24 CST 1996 Message number: 34 Reply to message number: unavailable A CALL FOR NEW VALUES by Mikhail Gorbachev Today, humankind is facing a choice. It is time for every individual, nation and state to rethink its place and role in world affairs. We need an intellectual breakthrough into a new dimension. And that means that the state of the human spirit assumes paramount importance. The roles of culture, religion, science, and education must grow enormously. The responsibility of the centers of humanity's intellectual, scientific, and religious development is immense and must be given preeminence. The future of human society will not be defined in terms of capitalism versus socialism. It was that dichotomy that caused the division of the world community into two blocs and brought about so many catastrophic consequences. We need to find a paradigm that will integrate all the achievements of the human mind and human action, irrespective of which ideology or political movement can be credited with them. This paradigm can only be based on the common values that humankind has developed over many centuries. The search for a new paradigm should be a search for synthesis, for what is common to and unites people, countries, and nations, rather than what divides them. The search for such a synthesis can succeed if the following conditions are met. - First of all, we must return to the well-known human values that were embodied in the ideals of world religions and also in the socialist ideas that inherited much from those values. - Further, we need to search for a new paradigm of development, based on those values and capable of leading us all toward a genuinely humanistic or, more precisely, humanistic-ecological culture of living. - Finally, we need to develop methods of social action and policy that will direct society to a path consistent with the interests of both humanity and the rest of nature. When I speak of a new synthesis, of the need for increasing unity and interdependence, I am not calling for a kind of universal leveling, sameness or uniformity. I do not accept a civilization that would be like a huge historic steamroller, flattening out everything. Who would need such a new civilization, and why even call it new? By no means do I want all countries and nations to become alike. I think that the civilization to which we all belong is one of great multiplicity. And that is a souce of its strength, the basis for the exchange of cultural values, for comparing methods of organization and ways of living. The philosophy of the twenty-first century must be grounded in a philosophy of diversity. If life as such is the highest value, then even more precious is the singular identity of every nation and every race as a unique creation of nature and human history. At the same time, we must begin to define certain moral maxims or ethical commandments that constitute values common to all humankind. It is my view that the individual's attitude toward nature must become one of the principal criteria for ensuring the maintenance of morality. Today it is not enough to say "Thou shalt not kill". Ecological education implies, above all, respect and love for every living being. It is here that ecological culture interfaces with religion. The beauty and uniqueness of life lies in the unity of diversity. Self-identification - of every individual and of the many different nations, ethnic groups and nationalities - is the crucial condition for preserving life on Earth. Struggles and conflicts burn out the diversity of life, leaving a social wasteland in their wake. Honoring diversity and honoring the Earth create the basis for genuine unity. Mikhail Gorbachev ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GAIA To: DAEDALUS RISING Subject: Re: Souls and consciousne Date: Tue Mar 12 05:42:07 CST 1996 Message number: 35 Reply to message number: unavailable Quoting a message from Daedalus Rising to Gaia: St> Arnt all humans animals? G> I agree. Humans are animals, plain and simple. Because we're significant G> more intelligent than "lower" animals, it's easy to think that we're "abov G> them. DR> "More intelligent" is a somewhat deceptive term, though. I don't DR> think that the humans of today are much smarter than those who lived DR> 50,000 years ago. Knowledge builds upon knowledge, and that knowledge DR> can take on a momentum of its own. Right you are! I would be very interested in seeing where it would go if orangutans or some other speceies were to develop a complex language and began to pass knowledge down from generation to generation. G> though he was trying to hide his toilet drinking from me. If I get mad an G> yell at the dog, he'll tuck his tail between his legs and look all guilty. G> How is this different from a conscience? DR> It depends upon whether or not the dog is aware and "in control" of DR> what's he's doing. Is the dog simply repeating the pattern that has DR> gotten him out of trouble before, or is he genuinely sorry he was DR> drinking out of the toilet? Who is in control of what they're doing? I think that making "choices," the implication being that we truly could take a number of courses of action and that we decide to do only one, is an illusion. The choices we make are determined by your personality (determined by heredity, your childhood environ ment, and significant experiences) and the information you are exposed to (a direct result of your experiences), none of which you have any control over. Your brain is the organ which operates everything else. Your brain is a bunch of atoms, each of which are governed by a set of scientific laws. It seems likely that we don't actualy make choices, or rather, our "choices" are predetermined. DR> Not to simplify it too much, but sometimes a dumb animal is just that DR> - a dumb animal. I bdlieve that to have a conscience, one must be DR> self-aware. I believe that the entire universe is a big machine, and that being a dumb animal doesn't necessarily mean a lack of self-awareness. IMHO, intelligence only determines how efficient a machine you are. In what way are self- awareness and conscience related? Could it not be that you are a self-aware machine? -Gaia ... Sorry, the dog ate my Blue Wave packet. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Gaia Subject: Re: Souls and consciousne Date: Tue Mar 12 10:26:59 CST 1996 Message number: 36 Reply to message number: 30 G> Right you are! I would be very interested in seeing where it would go if G> orangutans or some other speceies were to develop a complex language and beg G> to pass knowledge down from generation to generation. G> That is the point. Symbolic language is a sign of intelligence and so far, orangs haven't developed it. Dolphins and whales seem to have though, and gorillas and chimpanzees can learn some of ours but not create one of their own. G> that we decide to do only one, is an illusion. The choices we make are G> determined by your personality (determined by heredity, your childhood envir G> ment, and significant experiences) and the information you are exposed to (a G> direct result of your experiences), none of which you have any control over. G> Your brain is the organ which operates everything else. Your brain is a bun G> of atoms, each of which are governed by a set of scientific laws. It seems G> likely that we don't actualy make choices, or rather, our "choices" are G> predetermined. G> I do think that we have more actual choice than that, but also agree that there is actually less choice available in many places than other people think. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Gaia Subject: Re: Souls and consciousne Date: Tue Mar 12 14:33:40 CST 1996 Message number: 37 Reply to message number: 35 G> Right you are! I would be very interested in seeing where it would go if G> orangutans or some other speceies were to develop a complex language and beg G> to pass knowledge down from generation to generation. Where do you think the Dallas Cowboys came from? G> DR> It depends upon whether or not the dog is aware and "in control" of G> DR> what's he's doing. Is the dog simply repeating the pattern that has G> DR> gotten him out of trouble before, or is he genuinely sorry he was G> DR> drinking out of the toilet? G> Your brain is the organ which operates everything else. Your brain is a bun G> of atoms, each of which are governed by a set of scientific laws. It seems G> likely that we don't actualy make choices, or rather, our "choices" are G> predetermined. So you're a determinist, eh? I don't know about yourself, but I think some people take this path as a cop-out. Briefly, 2 reasons why determinism isn't valid: 1) Choice exists because chance exists. The univserse is inherently random. 2) To predict the outcome of any one event, you need to find all the factors that affect it and take them into consideration. Since the amount of things that could affect an event are beyond any human's capacity to measure, we can never know the future with absolute certainty. G> only determines how efficient a machine you are. In what way are self- G> awareness and conscience related? Could it not be that you are a self-aware G> machine? If someone is not self-aware, I don't see how they could give a damn whether they did something that's right or wrong. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MAILER DAEMON To: All Subject: Cowflesh Date: Fri May 17 05:15:13 CDT 1996 Message number: 38 Reply to message number: unavailable Tuesday, May 14, 1996 By Carla Bennett Knight-Ridder/Tribune Another Earth Day come and gone with barely a whisper about vegetarianism. Why not? Because self-proclaimed environmentalists who consume flesh are legion. Many run big environmental charities or work to preserve endangered species. But there is no such animal as a meat-eating "environmentalist." In fact, the flesh habit is killing our planet and her earthlings. To graze cattle, the meat industry destroys land irreversibly, including the tropical rain forests, vital sources of Earth's oxygen and home to half of all species on Earth. Each year thousands of rain forest species go extinct. A staggering 55 square feet of rain forest are consumed with every quarter-pound fast-food burger made of rain forest beef. The meat industry is also eradicating United States forests and their inhabitants. Birds that migrate over continents find their former homes obliterated. Seventy percent of our public land in the West - 307 million acres set aside for our pleasure - has been turned over to cattle and sheep ranchers. They have arrogantly and callously exterminated most of our Western wildlife. Cattle consume 90 percent of the forage on these lands and have caused irreversible damage by overgrazing. More than 225 million Western acres are in various states of desertification (turning to desert) and 36.8 percent of the North American continent's drylands have suffered "severe" desertification. In other words, more than 75 percent of U.S. topsoil is gone forever, and 85 percent of this loss is directly related to livestock raising. The meat industry devours 30 percent of all the raw materials used in this country. By contrast, it would take only 2 percent of our raw materials to feed a vegetarian United States. It takes 2,500 gallons of water to produce a pound of meat, but only 25 gallons to produce a pound of wheat. Adding insult to injury, whatever water the meat, egg and dairy people don't use, they abuse. U.S. livestock produce 250,000 pounds of excrement a second - 20 billion pounds a day - polluting 10 times more water than humans do. Although meat producers advertise their "real food for real people," millions of real people starve to death each year. An acre of land can "grow" 165 pounds of beef - or 20,000 pounds of potatoes. Sixteen pounds of grain and soybeans produce only a single pound of feedlot beef - processing protein through the bodies of animals is obscenely wasteful. More than a billion people could be fed by the grain and soybeans eaten by U.S. livestock alone. These people would be healthier, too, because meat has been indicted as a factor in heart disease, cancer and other diseases. Change will not come from the giant meat, dairy and egg industries with their powerful lobbies and enormous advertising budgets. It will not come from the huge drug corporations or thriving pesticide manufacturers, whose sales charts soar on our meat habit. It can only come from us, the people, at every meal. Our environmental leaders must kick their flesh habits and get out this crucial message. Note: Probably one of the most positive and easiest thing one can do for the planet and oneself is to refrain from meat. Actually, it's not even necessary to become a purist vegetarian to make a significant impact. Since meat is not a drug, like say tobacco, its easy to cut back an not miss it. Most of the desire for meat stems from cultural conditioning and therefore is easy to overcome. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MAILER DAEMON To: All Subject: The Ultamite Trip Date: Sat Jun 01 17:16:52 CDT 1996 Message number: 39 Reply to message number: unavailable Via NY Transfer News Collective * All the News that Doesn't Fit TIMOTHY LEARY'S DEAD... ... for real this time. He died at age of 75 on May 31, 1996 "in his sleep," according to the mainstream news reports. Here's to Tim Leary.... Owsley's Johnny Appleseed, a self-aggrandizing, frequently obnoxious, and some would say irresponsible, prophet. But also a brilliant and liberating force who helped make the good parts of the 1960s what they were. Memorial highs would be appropriate. Tim's last self-promotion, just posted on his homepage, follows. -- NY Transfer http://www.interverse.com/conscious/news/columns/UltimateTrip.html posted 5/30/96 THE ULTIMATE TRIP A MANUAL FOR DESIGNER DYING By Timothy Leary with David Prince Harper Collins, Spring 1997 Due out in the Spring of 1997, Timothy Leary [was] busy working on his new book for Harper Collins Publishing, "The Ultimate Trip." Since being diagnosed with terminal prostate cancer in 1995, Timothy Leary [had] been energeticaly exploring all options regarding his death. In this new book Timothy, with the help of David Prince, will outline and discuss a new outline and plan for one of the greatest taboos of our time, death. Here is a sample of what's to come. Design for Dying by Timothy Leary SUMMARY Of the many problems one faces in maintaining a self-reliant growthful life, there are five questions which could be considered most challenging: 1. Where is personal consciousness located? A. Scientific Answer: One's personal consciousness is stored in the nervous system. The brain is the hardware, the biocomputer which fabricates and navigates the realities we inhabit. The software systems which operate the brain are the programs, directories, files and personal operating systems which define the individual soul. 2. What happens to personal consciousness (memories) when bodily functions cease? A. Scientific Answer: Unless scientific methods of Preservation-Reanimation are employed, when the body dies, the (brain) rots. Your personal software systems crash. If you choose to ignore the Preservation-Reanimation options, there are two ways to deal with your defunct hardware: You can be passively buried in a coffin and let it rot; You can be cremated. Cremation is more dignified than rotting. Cremation is a choice made by the owner-manger of the brain and is approved by polytheistic-pagan-humanist religions which glorify the individual's Gods-within and encourage reincarnation-reanimation planning. The aim of Monotheistic-Totalitarian religions is to prohibit individuals from exercising any navigational control of conception, reproduction and post-mortem transition. TOTALITARIAN RELIGIONS prohibit cremation. 3. How can the hardware of the brain be preserved for re-animation after physical death? A. There are three scientific methods of preserving the brain. 1. CLONING a new body and brain from cells. 2. CRYONIC SUSPENSION of the brain 3. BIOLOGICAL BRAIN BANKING-awaiting donor transplant to a new body We recognize that preserving the brain does not assure that the software directories, the memory files, the personal operating systems, will be preserved. It is, therefor, necessary that the owner of the brain make arrangements to "save" and "back-up" the memory software which comprises the individual's personality and consciousness of self. 4. How can personal memories and genetic algorithms stored in the brain be backed-up and stored for up-loading into the new or reanimated brain? A. Owners who wish to preserve and re-animate their neuro-memories (souls) must diligently collect and protect material mementos which will help reconstruct the unique personality and the personal environment of their lives. Within reason, of course. The tombs of the Pharaohs are fantastic models of personal-reality storage but impractical for our times. Material items, mementos, souvenirs. Clothes, books, pictures are obviously vulnerable to loss. Remember the Tomb Robbers. The key to software back-up, therefor, is digitization. IF YOU WANT TO IMMORTALIZE YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS,RECORD AND DIGITIZE The basic way to store memories is to scan them onto CDs: text, audio, video, hand art, etc. 5. Success in preserving one's personal hardware (body- brain) and autographic software depends upon supportive environments and stable, highly-motivated care-taking organizations. What are the political-cultural-social steps required to protect and re-animate hibernating brains? A. The basic unit for survival during life and during HIbernation is the IN-GROUP. Small teams linked to other small groups. Inter-generational links are also crucial to keep a system going over many decades. The following pages will offer detailed discussions of the issues raised in these Q and A's. ================================================================= NY Transfer News Collective * A Service of Blythe Systems Since 1985 - Information for the Rest of Us 339 Lafayette St., New York, NY 10012 http://www.blythe.org e-mail: nyt@blythe.org ================================================================= -!- ! Origin: helix.uucp =FidoNet/Internet= Seattle 206.783.6368 (1:343/70) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Mailer Daemon Subject: Re: The Ultamite Trip Date: Sun Jun 02 01:18:38 CDT 1996 Message number: 40 Reply to message number: 39 MD> The aim of Monotheistic-Totalitarian religions is to prohibit individuals MD> from exercising any navigational control of conception, reproduction and MD> post-mortem transition. TOTALITARIAN RELIGIONS prohibit cremation. MD> To have been so damned intelligent, he sure was dumb. I only hope that he is at peace now. He had little peace in life. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Leary's Final Trip Date: Mon Jun 10 15:56:26 CDT 1996 Message number: 41 Reply to message number: unavailable Timothy Leary's Ashes to Orbit the Earth Michelle Koidin The Associated Press, June 6, 1996. HOUSTON - Two days before he died, Timothy Leary watched a videotape of a satellite blazing a trail of light as it burned up while plunging into Earth's atmosphere. What he saw was himself. "He said, 'That's me. I'm that light. ... I'm finally going to be a space pioneer," longtime friend Carol Rosin said. Leary, the inner-space traveler and prophet of LSD who died Friday at the age of 75, decided he wanted Celestis Inc. of Houston to pack 7 grams of his ashes into an aluminum capsule the size of a lipstick and blast them into orbit. Celestis, a 2-year-old company that advertises space funerals for $4,800, plans to launch the ashes of at least 15 people on its "founders' flight" this fall, hitchhiking on a commercial satellite launch. The price includes a commemorative video of the launch. Among the other scheduled passengers is Gene Roddenberry, the creator of "Star Trek," who died in 1991. Some of his ashes made an earlier trip to space aboard a space shuttle. But why did Leary want his ashes in space, rather than being spread over a mountaintop or the ocean? "I think the vastness of the universe represents the freedom that Timothy was all about," Rosin said Tuesday. "He always wanted to travel in space and had some experiences doing it - mentally, consciously - and now he will have the chance to really do it." In September or October, Leary's remains will be among those to be strapped to the final stage of a rocket being launched by Orbital Sciences Corp., said Charles Chafer, a Celestis vice president. In orbit, the cosmic mausoleum will separate from Orbital Sciences' primary payload, a Spanish communications satellite. Celestis says the ashes should orbit for up to 10 years before they plunge back into the atmosphere and burn up. "What we've done is kind of an ashes-to-ashes situation," Chafer said. "Most of the people that select our service are space nuts in and of themselves, and an awful lot of them don't want to have more debris in space." It's the first trip into orbit planned by Celestis, but it will be the second for Roddenberry. A portion of his remains were carried aboard the space shuttle Columbia in 1992, the year after he died at age 70. The remains returned to Earth when the shuttle landed. ================================================================= NY Transfer News Collective * A Service of Blythe Systems Since 1985 - Information for the Rest of Us 339 Lafayette St., New York, NY 10012 http://www.blythe.org e-mail: nyt@blythe.org ================================================================= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Leary's Final Trip Date: Fri Jun 14 00:05:36 CDT 1996 Message number: 42 Reply to message number: 41 DR> Timothy Leary's Ashes to Orbit the Earth DR> So, what else is new? He only left 150 pounds of water behind this time. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: The Delinquency gene Date: Mon Jun 17 04:59:25 CDT 1996 Message number: 43 Reply to message number: unavailable PRIVACY Forum Digest Saturday, 15 June 1996 Volume 05 : Issue 12 Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 15:21:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Phil Agre Subject: genetic screening and privacy The June 9 issue of the London Sunday Times includes an article entitled "Mass screening for 'delinquency' gene planned". It reports that the UK Department of Health has commissioned a study to investigate ways of testing potential carriers of a genetic defect called "Fragile X Syndrome". People born with the syndrome, it is said, are mentally handicapped and aggressive. Whether the syndrome really exists has been controversial. But if the problem were framed as a "retardation gene" or a "genetic brain disease" then it would probably not be as controversial as all that. What really makes it controversial is the suggestion, cited in the article's title, that the gene constitutes a "delinquency gene". Fragile X Syndrome is exhibit A for a scientific movement to identify genetic bases of criminality. The very idea has caused immense upset because of the long history of pseudoscience, much of it dressed up in the most respectable of clothing in its day, which has interpreted criminality as a genetic defect linked to a person's race or class. Such theories have served as a pretext for all kinds of regressive policies and cultural attitudes, and as arguments against ameliorative social programs. Even in very recent times, arguments have been made for the genetic basis of mental illnesses and then later retracted. The research behind such theories is generally highly problematic. A common method is to correlate parents' traits with childrens', and to present any significant correlation as evidence of inheritance. Another method is to correlate traits of twins separated at birth. Although such studies are convincing to many people, in fact twins are rarely literally separated at birth, so that the average age of separation in a given study may be as high as two years. Besides, twins are born at the same time into the same society, and so they will be raised in the same cultural atmosphere, economic conditions, media, and so forth. At least the "Fragile X Syndrome" relates to a specific, testable property of the genome, even if the syndrome itself is somewhat vague in definition. The privacy issue here concerns labeling. Someone who has been diagnosed as possessing certain genetic traits is at risk of being stereotyped as a potential aggressor (or whatever the gene is supposed to code for) even if no such traits have been exhibited. Such a diagnosis could easily stigmatize a person for life. Phil Agre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Tim's House Date: Sun Jun 30 18:16:44 CDT 1996 Message number: 44 Reply to message number: unavailable Life at Tim's, After Tim by Douglas Rushkoff Timothy Leary Passes On. Indeed. As I sit here at Tim's house -- I guess a day or so by now since he crossed over -- I can feel the hole he left behind when he went. It's more than just the voice coming from the bedroom, or the careening daredevil on the electric wheelchair running over our feet. It's not just the loss of a great thinker, teacher, and philosopher. Don't get me wrong. I miss Tim terribly. There's so many things I could have told him. I could have said just one encouraging thing to him for every fifty he said to me. But to pat him on the back always felt as if it were patronizing. Why would he need approval from me? But as I enjoy the sweet pain of sitting with those who loved him, sharing our memories and making pacts for the future, I realize what it is Tim did for his friends that we'll now have to do for ourselves. It's not just thinking for oneself or challenging authorities or taking a stand or being willing to look deep into the dark for a glimmer of light. He did that because he had no choice. That's just who Tim was, and what we can learn from his experience we will. What he did for us, more than anything, was define what "us" is. A disparate group of compatriots, lovers, friends, adventurers and even foes, who were attracted to space where everything we did was "A-okay, thumbs-up, the best ever, and right on!" A place where the entrance was free and the crowd pre-approved by the virtue of their presence. Tim's house was probably the easiest place to feel it. An extended college bull session -- it lasted thirty years and spanned three generations -- and had less to do with Tim's philosophies than his blanket acceptance of anyone who walked in the door. Nothing made Tim happier than to hear his friends praised. It's just too bad that he was the one who had to do it most of the time. But slowly, over time, we came to see that people tend to rise to the highest expectations we place on them. The reason the folks at Tim's were consistently intelligent, gracious, and kind-hearted was because Tim treated us all as if we were. We had no choice but to rise to the occasion. That's probably why Tim wanted his web site to be a house. So that he could extend the welcome to everyone. And for us it became the best way to do as he recommended twenty years ago: "go find the others." While Tim was alive this was easy to do. We all had Tim in common. Like a lightning rod for hyper-interaction, he became a medium of exchange. So many times I came to this house less to see Tim himself than to be with the people here -- my best friends -- and to get to be with them in that special way we got to be together in the ambience of unconditional mutual approval. So now we're exchanging phone numbers, planning ways for the tribe to keep in the possession of the house, and promising to keep in touch. Without Tim though, there's an unspoken fear that we all might just go our separate ways. The touchstone is gone. But I guess that's the challenge. The most important legacy we can give Timothy Leary is to go on being with each other in the way we could when he was around. And this means learning how to approve of one another as readily and completely as Tim did. Tim's whole trip -- from psychedelics to computers to designer dying -- was to communicate the fact that people are capable of taking charge of their own brains, hearts, and spirits. He believed that people are capable of a hell of a lot more than the appointed "authorities" would prefer to grant them. So now, as we graduate by default from the authority of approval that Tim bestowed on us all, it's up to us to learn to accept one another as fully as he did. This web site was Timothy's chief dying wish. He saw it as much more than an archive of his achievements. He meant for it to be a house that all could enter long after he was gone, and do for themselves what he took so much pleasure in doing for us his whole life. So, in that spirit, welcome to Tim's. You're A-okay, thumbs-up, the best ever, and right on. ================================================================= NY Transfer News Collective * A Service of Blythe Systems Since 1985 - Information for the Rest of Us 339 Lafayette St., New York, NY 10012 http://www.blythe.org e-mail: nyt@blythe.org ================================================================= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LEMON To: Daedalus Rising Subject: (+)////////>:) SKREW SMILEY FACES Date: Sun Aug 18 08:31:00 CDT 1996 Message number: 45 Reply to message number: 44 *sniff*, now you're making me think about him.... I miss you Jesus, (whoops, "Tim") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARKSHINE To: All Subject: I am Date: Wed Aug 21 18:30:24 CDT 1996 Message number: 46 Reply to message number: unavailable Another idea from another nightly pacing episode. Alright folks, I think I know why everything wrong with humankind is as it is. The human brain has been misused for over 3000 years. Not being an anthropologist I'm quite possibly wrong on that number. Anyways... At some point after tens of thousands of years of existance a human suddenly thought to himself, "I am alive, I am here, I am I." Thus self awareness was born. Along with this awareness came awareness of environment and other humans. Over time this awareness led to a complete revolution in the thought process. Knowledge of the past, ability to plan for the future both entered the picture. Thoughts were now compared, balanced, reasoned, and organized. The creation of sophisticated languages allowed ideas to be communicated. People learned all the ideas of their parents, came up with their own, and passed all these to their children who would do the same. In this frenzy the chaotic, instinctual mind was repressed almost completely. I beleive that which we call the subconsious is the animal mind peaking through the modern mind. I wonder if anyone's has ever stopped to think of the consequences of an entire race living with a completely artificial thought process. It's like a monkey with a computer augmenting it's brain. We were not designed to operate in this fashion. In cases where children have been isolated, not subjected to the programming most of us go through, the have behaved similarly to any other wild animal. I'm not saying that logic and reason are bad things, I'm saying that bad things come with them. Nearly any act, no matter how horrendous can be justified through logic. Perhaps the reason many of the most spiritually, psychically, and mentally advanced people mediditate is because the act of meditation clears the mind of thoughts. It pushes aside the artificial thinking process and allowes nature's built it mind to take back control for a short time. Perhaps the reason our race is so fasinated with computers is because that is exactly what we have become. As often is the case I don't see the meaning or direction in my random thoughts. So I put it here and let you deal with it. (: |05 . ś . ś . |05 ®(š=-Darkshine-=š)Æ |05 ł . ł . ł ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Darkshine Subject: Re: I am Date: Thu Aug 22 05:35:10 CDT 1996 Message number: 47 Reply to message number: 46 Sorry there was to much there for me to pick through for quoting. that is an interesting hypothesis. But I must wonder if it isn't truly the parts of our animal nature that have given us so many problems. I've always found true reason to be something almost divine. Whereas the animal nature to be primitive and chaotic and hurtful to other people. the animal nature doesn't concern itself with other people's feelings or conditions. I've found that the animal nature is simply concerned with the satisfaction of it's own needs and the continuace of the species above anything else. I would also question the ability of logic to justify anything no matter how horrible. it is true that almost anything can be justified by logic. But often the truly horrific things are justified by twisted logic that doesn't serve truth as good logic should. Aggh I'm running out of time now. I'll have to continue this later. Specter -May benevolece and reason shelter you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARKSHINE To: Specter Subject: Re: I am Date: Thu Aug 22 23:53:21 CDT 1996 Message number: 48 Reply to message number: 47 S> that is an interesting hypothesis. But I must wonder if it isn't truly S> the parts of our animal nature that have given us so many problems. I've S> always found true reason to be something almost divine. Whereas the animal S> nature to be primitive and chaotic and hurtful to other people. the animal S> nature doesn't concern itself with other people's feelings or conditions. S> I've found that the animal nature is simply concerned with the satisfaction S> it's own needs and the continuace of the species above anything else. Looking back with a less cluttered mind, I think my main idea was that the brain was not designed to funtion as we use it. From there I just spilled random thoughts on the keyboard. I certainly don't think that we should all strip naked and run around the forest grunting. I do, however, think that we should remain aware of the animal part of us. It helps to remind us that we are not gods. With reason comes stress, hatred, anger, greed, the ability to create weapons of apocaliptic distruction, and other nasty things. THere must be a balance somewhere. Buddha found it. |05 . ś . ś . |05 ®(š=-Darkshine-=š)Æ |05 ł . ł . ł ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Darkshine Subject: Re: I am Date: Fri Aug 23 05:09:49 CDT 1996 Message number: 49 Reply to message number: 48 D> are not gods. With reason comes stress, hatred, anger, greed, the ability t D> create weapons of apocaliptic distruction, and other nasty things. THere mu D> be a balance somewhere. Buddha found it. I would have to disagree with the comment about reason. Anger, hatred, greed are very primitive emotions. they existed long before humans could reason. I've always thought, though of course I could be horribly wrong, that reason helps to put down and eliminate hatred and greed. I do agree that a balance has to be found between them though. Without balance either set could be destructive. though if one were to miss the balance it might be wise to miss on the side of reason. Specter -May benevolence and reason shelter you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARKSHINE To: Specter Subject: Re: I am Date: Wed Aug 28 21:49:53 CDT 1996 Message number: 50 Reply to message number: 49 S> I would have to disagree with the comment about reason. Anger, hatred, gree S> are very primitive emotions. they existed long before humans could reason. I can't see how anger, hatred, greed, etc., would be primitive. An animal takes what it needs and doesn't give a second thought to that which is beyond it. It will attack if it is in some way threatened, but it certainly holds no grudges. It's hard to hold on to hatred with little to no concept of past or future. |05 . ś . ś . |05 ®(š=-Darkshine-=š)Æ |05 ł . ł . ł ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Darkshine Subject: Re: I am Date: Tue Sep 03 12:31:32 CDT 1996 Message number: 51 Reply to message number: 50 D> I can't see how anger, hatred, greed, etc., would be primitive. An anim D> takes what it needs and doesn't give a second thought to that which is D> beyond it. It will attack if it is in some way threatened, but it certainly D> holds no grudges. It's hard to hold on to hatred with little to no concept D> past or future. Hmm. Most animals will only take what they need when in the natural settings. In the natural settings of most herbivores there is enough normal food to go around and there is no need for violence. But if one injects a new substance into the animals habitat that is special and desired the situation changes. In experiments in the wild gorillas that had lived peacefully under normal settings were given banana bunches ( they hadn't had bananas before) The gorillas became greedy to a large degree, the few gorillas who were able to get the bananas would take many more than they themselves would need. The previously peaceful gorillas also became violent and aggressive in their desire to possess the bananas. These gorillas acted this way even though there was food enough for all right around them. The key to this behavior was finding something that the gorillas didn't have already available for them then they became greedy. The gorillas I would say already had the traits to be hostile and greedy, they just never had the chance to act on those traits. Humans in a more complex society simply have more chances to use our greed and anger. In response to the statement that animals don't hold grudges and don't have a sense of future or past. I would have to say that animals do indeed have a sense of time. Everything I've seen of animals suggests that they recognize past and future. I've seen dogs expect things (future) and as to the past and grudges I'd try to relate a story. My uncle used to have a dog. That dog and I were on good terms for several years, one day I accidentaly let a door behind me swing in on its tail. The dog wasn't seriously hurt, but it never would come near me again. I would state that that dog remembered my action and held a grudge for as long as it lived. eh, I don't know. Specter -stuff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: ALL Subject: Monkey Date: Thu May 01 12:48:45 CDT 1997 Message number: 52 Reply to message number: unavailable Ä Area: Evolution ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ From: Tiffany Williams Read: Yes Replied: No Subj: Monkeys ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Three Monkeys Three monkeys sat in a coconut tree, Discussing things as they're said to be. Said one to another, Now listen you two, There's a certain rumour that can't be true. That man descends from our noble race. Why the very idea is a disgrace! No monkey ever deserted his wife, Starved her baby and ruined her life. And you've never known a mother monk, To leave her babies with others to bunk. Till they scarcely know who is their mother. And another thing, my dear brother, You'll never see A monk build a fence around a coconut tree. And let the coconuts go to waste, Forbidding all other monks a taste. Why, if I'd put a fence around this tree, Starvation would force you to steal from me. Here's another thing a monk won't do, Go out at night and get on a stew. Or use a gun or club or knife, To take some other poor monkey's life. Yes man descended, the ornery cuss, But, brothers, he didn't descend from us. === ... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander. ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Sandman Subject: Re: Monkey Date: Thu May 01 17:38:10 CDT 1997 Message number: 53 Reply to message number: 52 S> Or use a gun or club or knife, S> To take some other poor monkey's life. Actually, to play the devil's advocate here, animals have been known to be just as violent (or more) than humans. The difference being, we have more desctuctive tools - and should know better. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: ALL Subject: Revert to the beasts? Date: Fri May 02 17:13:31 CDT 1997 Message number: 54 Reply to message number: unavailable Ä Area: Skeptic ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ From: David Bloomberg Read: Yes Replied: No Subj: 1/ , Would We All Behave ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Would We All Behave Like Animals? A Conversation Does a "belief" in evolution lead to a loss of morals and ethics? No. People who fear this result from teaching about evolution are mistaken. They are confusing a philosophy called "Social Darwinism" with biological evolution. What is "Social Darwinism?" "Social Darwinism" is an oversimplified and naive extension of biological evolution to human social systems. Theorists, such as Herbert Spencer (1820-1903), proposed and popularized much of what we now know as "Social Darwinism." What are the major tenets of Social Darwinism? Social Darwinists used evolution to explain, in a seemingly scientific manner, existing social and economic stratification among groups and among nations. Social and economic injustice as well as international belligerence were rationalized as being the natural order of things. Groups and nations with greater economic fortunes were identified, without any real justification, as being biologically superior. But doesn't evolution claim the same things as Social Darwinism? No. Biological evolution is very different from Social Darwinism. "Survival of the fittest" is not as accurate a slogan for evolution as "survival of the fit enough," but either way, it is important to realize that biological "fitness" can be achieved in many different ways. Biological "fitness" usually has little to do with physical strength or the use of force or coercion. Then what does "biological fitness" mean? Biological fitness is defined as the long-term ability, compared to others, to leave offspring or descendants. There are many factors involved in the ability to leave descendants in the long run (i.e. to have great, great, great, great, etc. grandchildren.) Among humans, for example, the abilities to communicate and to cooperate have gone a long way towards making our species successful. But evolutionary thought does emphasize competition, not cooperation, doesn't it? Again, the popular conception of "evolution" is really that of Social Darwinism. There are countless examples of evolution resulting in cooperative behavior. Insects and flowering plants are a perfect example. Most flowering plants use insects for pollination and the insects use the flowers as a source of food. "Cleaner" fish eat parasites off larger fish who, in turn, refrain from eating the "cleaners." The list of cooperative relationships between species is long, indeed. All, so far as we know, are the result of evolution. Furthermore, everyone knows of examples of cooperation within a species. Many social mammals will collectively defend the young, and elephants will help sick and injured members of the herd keep up. These cooperative relation ships are also the result of evolution. Competition or cooperation, evolution still teaches that we are just animals. If we think that, won't we behave like animals? What animal species are you thinking of? Porpoises are gregarious, intelligent, and fun-loving. Baboons are protective of the young. They show cooperative group behavior. Gorillas are docile, family-oriented, and vegetarian. Chimpanzees form "bands" of more than one family, while orangutans live alone. From an evolutionary viewpoint, natural selection has produced people who behave like people. Humans, like all other species, are unique. There is no reason why we should behave as if we were some other species. What does evolutionary thought teach us about the natural behavior of humans? It is important to realize that we are a highly social species. Most of our behavior is learned, not genetically determined. We can learn behavior that will contribute to group well-being, and our long-term survival as a species. We can even "unlearn" whatever traces of instinctive behavior we may have inherited. Even if war between tribes is "natural" human behavior, we can learn not to make war. Systems of morals and ethics serve, in part, to channel our behavior away from behavior that is socially and biologically destructive. If evolution is so harmless, how could Hitler and Stalin use the idea of evolution to justify their inhuman policies of cruelty and extermination? Hitler, the Nazi, Stalin, the Communist, and Andrew Carnegie, the laissez faire capitalist, are 20th century examples of people trying to put Social Darwinism into practice. Certainly much damage and misery have resulted from these attempts. Most historians conclude that Hitler, Stalin, and the capitalist robber barons latched onto fragments of evolutionary theory to provide legitimacy for their particular views. They took a naive understanding of science and twisted it to suit their political purposes. But remember, this is Social Darwinism, a corruption of evolutionary theory, not evolutionary theory itself. Consider how curious it is that three extraordinarily different social/economic systems, Nazism, Communism, and laissez-faire capitalism could all be "derived" from the same idea of natural selection! It is clear that science was twisted for political ends. It is clear that science was twisted for political ends. But neither 19th nor 20th century Social Darwinism can be supported by a modern understanding of biological evolution. The fact that Social Darwinism was said to be grounded in biological evolution does not mean that knowledge of biological evolution can be blamed for the wrong-doings of Hitler and others. By this logic, we could condemn the Bible for such excesses as witch hunts, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Crusades. All were said to be motivated by the teachings of the Bible. If we accept the idea of evolution, won't that lead to programs to control our evolution? Why? We have known for thousands of years how to control the evolution of domestic animals, and obviously the same principles apply to human beings: mate like with like. Hitler failed in his attempt to create a "pure" Aryan strain by marrying off tall, blonde, handsome SS officers with similar tall, blonde, good-looking German women. There are no examples of anyone successfully applying these principles to Homo sapiens. First, to even attempt to control human evolution by selective breeding would take thousands of years, because of our long generation span. It would also require a great deal of coercion by society's leaders, because large numbers of people would not be allowed to reproduce. What would be the likelihood of any political system existing for thousands of years? None has so far, and it's not likely to happen in the future -- regardless of whether people understand evolution. What about genetic engineering? I understand that pretty soon scientists will be able to make a human being in the laboratory. That would speed up our control of human evolution. Shouldn't we be concerned about this? You're probably thinking of "Brave New World" type science fiction movies where scientists create master races, or monsters, or both. First of all, even with the Human Genome Project's attempt to map all the genes of our species, it will be a very long time -- if ever -- before genetic engineering techniques will be able to produce a human being. If such a thing could be done, it would be extremely expensive, require large numbers of carefully trained personnel, and, again, because of our long generation time, be very time-consuming. But let's take the worst-case scenario and imagine that sometime hundreds of years in the future, human beings could be created in the laboratory. Unless they could be produced by the hundreds of thousands, they would not have any effect on human evolution at all. Remember, the rest of humanity would continue to reproduce and evolve, and they would doubtless out-number those produced in the laboratory. We won't be able to control our future evolution through genetic engineering techniques. But I think something is missing here. Just as with selective breeding, any attempt to control human evolution depends on the political and social, not scientific, decisions of the society. It is not inevitable that scientific knowledge will be carried to its extreme just because it can be done. You, the other members of your society, and your leaders will decide what we do with any applications of science. When I was taught about evolution, we learned about what you are calling "Social Darwinism." Won't the same thing happen if my children are taught about evolution? Not if we do something to make sure that outdated and misleading information is no longer taught. Many science teachers receive too little formal education about evolution. Another problem is that progress in scientific research has led to specialization and fragmentation in college programs. In some colleges, a student can get a degree in cell biology without learning about evolution or ecology! Often, there is no course that will teach students in other majors, including education, about the nature of evolution and its scientific importance. Instead, much of what teachers know is derived from textbooks that give too little space to the subject. Television and unscientific popular accounts are common sources of misinformation about evolution. It is vitally important to set the record straight. Evolution is the foundation principle of biology. If our children are going to understand twentieth century science, and our country is going to be ready for the twenty-first century, we have to end the misunderstanding and fear surrounding this important aspect of biology. -=-=- This is a publication of the National Center for Science Education, please see our "Permission and Disclaimer Statement" for conditions of use. Molleen Matsumura Network Project Director National Center for Science Education -!- msgedsq 2.0.5 ! Origin: Let the love of truth shine clear (1:2430/2112) ... How about the Falcon's Eye? ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR]