------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Subject Date: Wed Feb 01 14:36:59 CST 1995 Message number: 1 Reply to message number: unavailable This is a base to discuss local politics that affect Minnesota. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARING DIANE J. To: DAEDALUS RISING Subject: Re: republicanism Date: Tue Aug 20 18:23:09 CDT 1996 Message number: 2 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Daedalus Rising to Big Teebo <=- -=> Quoting Big Teebo to Lucius Sulla <=- DR> The original Constitution created a `democracy' only for DR> property-owning white males. If you were black, Native American or DR> female, your interests were determined for you by the few who *could* And, tell me if I'm correct, DR, when Jefferson was writing the Bill of Rights, didn't he want to include women and people of color, but was politically persuaded to drop them out of the final draft? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARING DIANE J. To: FROGGY Subject: Re: republicanism Date: Tue Aug 20 18:23:14 CDT 1996 Message number: 3 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Froggy to Daring Diane J. <=- DD> Hey, DR, it seems like you have absored a point John Kenneth Galbraith ma DD> in one of his books, even though I think you said earlier that you are no DD> familiar with him or his philosophy. He was born on a farm in Canada and DD> became an economist in the U.S. sometime in the 1940's. I read part of h Fr> Fr> Just coincidentally, he has also been a Quaker for many Fr> years. :) Really? My! My ignorance is showing. Too bad I have so much of it. Do you know how he became convinced, Froggy? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARING DIANE J. To: ALL Subject: Nader for President Date: Tue Aug 20 18:23:17 CDT 1996 Message number: 4 Reply to message number: unavailable I'm working with the Green Party of Minnesota to collect signatures from Minnesotans who agree that Ralph Nader should appear on the ballot for President. We need 2,400 signatures by September 10, 1996, and so far we have 850 who have signed up on the official petition form. If any Dissenters would like to help gather signatures, or would like to sign the petition, please contact me with a private or public reply on this board. Thanks for your consideration. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daring Diane J. Subject: Re: republicanism Date: Tue Aug 20 20:12:30 CDT 1996 Message number: 5 Reply to message number: 3 DD> DD> Hey, DR, it seems like you have absored a point John Kenneth Galbraith DD> DD> in one of his books, even though I think you said earlier that you are DD> Fr> Just coincidentally, he has also been a Quaker for many DD> Fr> years. :) DD> DD> Really? My! My ignorance is showing. Too bad I have so much of it. Do y DD> know how he became convinced, Froggy? I am not certain. I am not 100% sure that he *is* a Quaker. Around 1963 - 1967, I saw him several times at Yearly Meetings, FGC Meetings, Peace Demonstrations, etc. It was my feeling at the time that he was a birthright Friend, as I am proud to say that my own 2 sons are. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LEMON To: Daring Diane J. Subject: Rolph Date: Wed Aug 21 03:53:58 CDT 1996 Message number: 6 Reply to message number: 4 I'm interested in the greenn party, but not Nader. I think he's a safety nazi. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: DARING DIANE J. Subject: Re: republicanism Date: Fri Aug 23 12:34:41 CDT 1996 Message number: 7 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Daring Diane J. : DR> The original Constitution created a `democracy' only for DR> property-owning white males. If you were black, Native American or DR> female, your interests were determined for you by the few who *could* DDJ> And, tell me if I'm correct, DR, when Jefferson was writing the Bill DDJ> of Rights, didn't he want to include women and people of color, but DDJ> was politically persuaded to drop them out of the final draft? I honestly have no clue, but I would be surprised if it were true. ... Yield to temptation; It may not pass your way again. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARING DIANE J. To: FROGGY Subject: Re: republicanism Date: Sat Aug 24 03:37:04 CDT 1996 Message number: 8 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Froggy to Daring Diane J. <=- DD> Hey, DR, it seems like you have absored a point John Kenneth Galbraith ma DD> in one of his books, even though I think you said earlier that you are no DD> familiar with him or his philosophy. He was born on a farm in Canada and DD> became an economist in the U.S. sometime in the 1940's. I read part of h Fr> Fr> Just coincidentally, he has also been a Quaker for many Fr> years. :) Really? My! My ignorance is showing. Too bad I have so much of it. Do you know how he became convinced, Froggy? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARING DIANE J. To: ALL Subject: Nader for President Date: Sat Aug 24 03:37:07 CDT 1996 Message number: 9 Reply to message number: unavailable I'm working with the Green Party of Minnesota to collect signatures from Minnesotans who agree that Ralph Nader should appear on the ballot for President. We need 2,400 signatures by September 10, 1996, and so far we have 850 who have signed up on the official petition form. If any Dissenters would like to help gather signatures, or would like to sign the petition, please contact me with a private or public reply on this board. Thanks for your consideration. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Retro `67 Date: Sat Sep 14 18:01:25 CDT 1996 Message number: 10 Reply to message number: unavailable It seems like Mr. Boschwitz and his campaign have come up with a really creative campaign strategy: pretend your own cantidate doesn't have any opinions of his own, except in opposition to the opponent. The, bring in a hack political consultant to sling some mud, and have your friends in Washington harp on the `ultraliberal' label in a series of mean-spirited ads - while claiming that you can't stop it anyways, you're not paying for it. Meanwhile, ignore most of the local parades around town and have your campaign volunteers scare all the children away with thweir blaze orange t-shierts and foam cowboy hats. Mr. Wellstone has them beat, though. His strategy seems to be: wait all summer long for the attacks to build a stereotype in the voters' minds, then finally strike back out and try to rebuild your image. Kind of frustrating, but at least the debates are coming up. Anyone have some comments to sahre? What's the buzz around the neignborhood, how's the lawnsign battle holding up, anything going on in the local campaigns worth commenting on? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Retro `67 Date: Sun Sep 15 11:03:48 CDT 1996 Message number: 11 Reply to message number: 10 DR> Mr. Wellstone has them beat, though. His strategy seems to be: wait all DR> summer long for the attacks to build a stereotype in the voters' minds, the DR> finally strike back out and try to rebuild your image. DR> DR> Kind of frustrating, but at least the debates are coming up. DR> DR> Anyone have some comments to sahre? What's the buzz around the neignborhoo DR> how's the lawnsign battle holding up, anything going on in the local campai DR> worth commenting on? I'm a little annoyed about Boschwitz use of ultra-liberal as being so very bad. Of course I'm also a socialist so I suppose I fall into that category myself. I'd like to see any ad by either candidate that I felt expressed anything close to a viewpoint. The Boschwitz/Wellstone race is pretty sick. No one seems to have anything to say that in the least indicates their positions or what they want to do in office. Scary to myself I'm beginning to see why so many voters are apathetic to the campaigns. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Retro `67 Date: Sun Sep 15 13:31:55 CDT 1996 Message number: 12 Reply to message number: 11 S> myself. I'd like to see any ad by either candidate that I felt expressed S> anything close to a viewpoint. The Boschwitz/Wellstone race is pretty sick. S> No one seems to have anything to say that in the least indicates their S> positions or what they want to do in office. Scary to myself I'm beginning S> see why so many voters are apathetic to the campaigns. Wellstone is now producing a lot of material. He was unable to earlier because campaign laws prevented him from it. Have you seen his new ad, where he is surrounded by his family and other people gradually walk up and stand with them? He talks about issues there. He says that he supported the addional cops on the street bill, the family leave bill, and others. He also said that yes, he voted against the "welfare reform act," because it will put 1 million more children into poverty. Then he said that although voting against it could cost him this election, his parents taught him to stand up for what he believes in. Wellstone and Boschwitz will be on the radio in the morning and on TV tomorrow night in a debate. It will be interesting to see if people actually listen to them or go on depending on the 30 second sound bytes for their information. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Froggy Subject: Re: Retro `67 Date: Sun Sep 15 14:48:08 CDT 1996 Message number: 13 Reply to message number: 12 F> for what he believes in. Wellstone and Boschwitz will be on the radio in th F> morning and on TV tomorrow night in a debate. It will be interesting to see F> if people actually listen to them or go on depending on the 30 second sound F> bytes for their information. Would you happen to know when and what station? *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Retro `67 Date: Sun Sep 15 16:52:36 CDT 1996 Message number: 14 Reply to message number: 13 F> for what he believes in. Wellstone and Boschwitz will be on the radio in th F> morning and on TV tomorrow night in a debate. It will be interesting to see BT> Would you happen to know when and what station? BT> I am not sure, but WCCO is a good bet. NPR may carry some of it too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Retro `67 Date: Tue Sep 17 16:09:46 CDT 1996 Message number: 15 Reply to message number: 12 F> Wellstone is now producing a lot of material. He was unable to F> earlier because campaign laws prevented him from it. Have you seen his new F> ad, where he is surrounded by his family and other people gradually walk up F> and stand with them? He talks about issues there. He says that he supporte F> the addional cops on the street bill, the family leave bill, and others. He F> also said that yes, he voted against the "welfare reform act," because it wi F> put 1 million more children into poverty. Then he said that although voting F> against it could cost him this election, his parents taught him to stand up F> for what he believes in. Wellstone and Boschwitz will be on the radio in th F> morning and on TV tomorrow night in a debate. It will be interesting to see F> if people actually listen to them or go on depending on the 30 second sound F> bytes for their information. I hadn't heard the new ad. I'm glad he's responding because i agree with his position. I did catch about half the debate. Boschwitz opening statement was really slacking. I laughed when he started reading from his commercials. I liked that Wellstone started using embarassing when refering to Boschwitz's actions while he was in the Senate. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Retro `67 Date: Tue Sep 17 23:53:12 CDT 1996 Message number: 16 Reply to message number: 15 S> I hadn't heard the new ad. I'm glad he's responding because i agree with hi It's a Catch-22. Like someone asking you if you are still beating your wife. If Wellstone protests too loudly, he looks as silly as they are, and gives them more fodder to attack him with. I have been calling the Wellstone camp. writing letters for him, etc., always asking his managers when they are going to counter this republican crap, especially since most of it is pure, outright lies. I wish they could have done it sooner, but it looks like it is OK. S> position. I did catch about half the debate. Boschwitz opening statement S> was really slacking. I laughed when he started reading from his commercials S> I liked that Wellstone started using embarassing when refering to Boschwitz' S> actions while he was in the Senate. Speaking of silly. That wasn't even Boschwitch's commercial he was reading from. It was that piece of junk from the RNC. I enjoyed the whole thing. Needed a good laugh this week. Wellstone handled it so well. Some things you may not have seen: Wellstone said that he was giong to answer the current question and then go back to Dean Barkley's question, because he didn't hear Boschwitch answer the question -- he thought he had repeated it. I couldn't believe my ears when Boschwitch tried to make an issue of Wellstone's vote for that bill studying the habits od sheep eating weeds. Not missing a beat, Wellstone said, "The bill I voted for only spent one fourth as much money as when YOU voted for the same bill." Well, if someone opens a door, walk through it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Retro `67 Date: Wed Sep 18 10:25:00 CDT 1996 Message number: 17 Reply to message number: 16 F> I couldn't believe my ears when Boschwitch tried to make an issue of F> Wellstone's vote for that bill studying the habits od sheep eating weeds. N F> missing a beat, Wellstone said, "The bill I voted for only spent one fourth F> much money as when YOU voted for the same bill." Well, if someone opens a F> door, walk through it. Agreed. I heard that reply from Wellstone. That was really great. I was really surprised that no one informed Boschwitz that if he used the sheep eating weeds study against Wellstone, he could expect to get the return in fourfold. His campaign advisors are slacking off. tsk tsk tsk. Oh well, if Boschwitz wants to hang himself in the debates that's fine with me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Retro `67 Date: Wed Sep 18 12:11:52 CDT 1996 Message number: 18 Reply to message number: 17 S> Agreed. I heard that reply from Wellstone. That was really great. I was S> really surprised that no one informed Boschwitz that if he used the sheep S> eating weeds study against Wellstone, he could expect to get the return in S> fourfold. His campaign advisors are slacking off. tsk tsk tsk. Oh well, if They may have. Boschwitz himself doesn't seem to me to be too endowed in the grey matter department. Probably all of that strawberry milk. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Retro `67 Date: Thu Sep 19 16:38:15 CDT 1996 Message number: 19 Reply to message number: 18 F> They may have. Boschwitz himself doesn't seem to me to be too F> endowed in the grey matter department. Probably all of that strawberry milk Yeah. Now he's dropping out of those three debates because the guy from the reform party is going to be there. Any idea what that is about? I can't seem to find a really good reason. Hmm... dropping out lowers your visibility rate, but it does give him a reason to hide away where voters can't recognize any grey matter he may be missing. But strawberry milk was just so great. I was so crushed when they took it out of my school. (sarcasm) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Retro `67 Date: Thu Sep 19 19:02:25 CDT 1996 Message number: 20 Reply to message number: 19 S> Yeah. Now he's dropping out of those three debates because the guy from the S> reform party is going to be there. Any idea what that is about? I can't se S> to find a really good reason. Hmm... dropping out lowers your visibility S> rate, but it does give him a reason to hide away where voters can't recogniz S> any grey matter he may be missing. S> *THEY* don't want Dean Barkley or Ross Perot to appear in debates with them because they draw more votes from the republicans than the democrats. I heard on the evening news that Boschwitz has now changed his mind, but I did not hear the details. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Retro `67 Date: Sat Sep 21 03:06:26 CDT 1996 Message number: 21 Reply to message number: 20 F> *THEY* don't want Dean Barkley or Ross Perot to appear in debates F> with them because they draw more votes from the republicans than the F> democrats. I heard on the evening news that Boschwitz has now changed his F> mind, but I did not hear the details. This is true. Yeah, I heard he's back in too. He made a complete turnaround all in one day's time. Oh well, I like a good debate. Too bad Boschwitz won't be much help in that area. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Retro `67 Date: Sat Sep 21 03:44:20 CDT 1996 Message number: 22 Reply to message number: 21 S> Yeah, I heard he's back in too. He made a complete turnaround all in one S> day's time. Oh well, I like a good debate. Too bad Boschwitz won't be much S> help in that area. Hehehe. Well, at leats he'll help us remember the rhetoric that has already been written. Ditto, ditto. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Froggy Subject: Re: Retro `67 Date: Sat Sep 21 18:08:27 CDT 1996 Message number: 23 Reply to message number: 16 F> Wellstone camp. writing letters for him, etc., always asking his managers wh F> they are going to counter this republican crap, especially since most of it F> pure, outright lies. I wish they could have done it sooner, but it looks li F> it is OK. It might end up being a mistake that cotst him the election. Since most voters have already made up their minds, he's stuck preaching to the converted. It's hard to change a mind that's already been set. F> Speaking of silly. That wasn't even Boschwitch's commercial he was F> reading from. It was that piece of junk from the RNC. I enjoyed the whole Ever wonder how Boschwitz can distance himself from the ads on the one hand, and yet mimic the same themes in his own campaign day after day? Republicans don't have a monopoly on hypocrisy, but they certainly seem more comfortable with it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Froggy Subject: Re: Retro `67 Date: Sat Sep 21 18:11:34 CDT 1996 Message number: 24 Reply to message number: 20 F> *THEY* don't want Dean Barkley or Ross Perot to appear in debates F> with them because they draw more votes from the republicans than the F> democrats. I heard on the evening news that Boschwitz has now changed his F> mind, but I did not hear the details. The details are, he got so much flack for dropping out of the debates that he changed his mind. he certainly doesn't want to go into a debate against Dean Barkely and Paul Wellstone for one overpowering reason: it'll end up being 2-1 against him. Barkley may be more `fiscally conservative' than Wellstone, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't like the guy. Barkley has called Wellstone, "the conscience of the senate." In that kind of environment, Boschwitz will seem the odd man out. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Retro `67 Date: Sat Sep 21 19:59:26 CDT 1996 Message number: 25 Reply to message number: 23 F> pure, outright lies. I wish they could have done it sooner, but it looks li F> it is OK. DR> DR> It might end up being a mistake that cotst him the election. Since most DR> voters have already made up their minds, he's stuck preaching to the I don't think everyone has made up his mind, and he sure is coming up with some good stuff now. Like that Boschwitz voted against minimum wage 3 times, voted for 2 wage increases for himself, and explains that $98,000 doesn't really go that far. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Retro `67 Date: Sat Sep 21 20:00:54 CDT 1996 Message number: 26 Reply to message number: 24 DR> against him. Barkley may be more `fiscally conservative' than Wellstone, bu DR> that doesn't mean that he doesn't like the guy. Barkley has called Wellston DR> "the conscience of the senate." In that kind of environment, Boschwitz will To show you how bad it is, even *I* like Barkley. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Froggy Subject: Re: Retro `67 Date: Sun Sep 22 07:08:53 CDT 1996 Message number: 27 Reply to message number: 25 F> I don't think everyone has made up his mind, and he sure is coming F> with some good stuff now. Like that Boschwitz voted against minimum wage 3 F> times, voted for 2 wage increases for himself, and explains that $98,000 F> doesn't really go that far. But even now, the number of ads on TV is overwhelming. I had the Sunday morning news on in the background as I was doing homework this morning, and about every third ad was for the US Senate race. Unfortunately, the ratio was 2 or 3 to 1 against Wellstone. The Republican Senatorial committee is just *throwing* money into the race, and that ends up putting Wellstone on the defensive. If the campaign revolves around "who's the biggest spender", it won't bode well for Wellstone. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Froggy Subject: Re: Retro `67 Date: Sun Sep 22 07:12:04 CDT 1996 Message number: 28 Reply to message number: 26 DR> against him. Barkley may be more `fiscally conservative' than Wellstone, bu DR> that doesn't mean that he doesn't like the guy. Barkley has called Wellston DR> "the conscience of the senate." In that kind of environment, Boschwitz will F> To show you how bad it is, even *I* like Barkley. :) Barkley's not a bad cantidate, though I think in `real life' he's just a cigar-chomping businessman. He lists campaign finance reform as a major issue, which I give him great credit for ... but he's fallen into the mentality of the typical conservative politician, equating government with running a business. Sadly, that analogy isn't just faulty - it's really destructive, as running the government and American economy like a business is pretty damned destructive. But he's not a bad guy, seems to speak from the heart. I have to give him credit for that at least. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Retro `67 Date: Sun Sep 22 07:36:34 CDT 1996 Message number: 29 Reply to message number: 27 F> with some good stuff now. Like that Boschwitz voted against minimum wage 3 F> times, voted for 2 wage increases for himself, and explains that $98,000 F> doesn't really go that far. DR> I heard them again, too and noticed that I goofed. Boschwitz voted against minimum wage <7> times, not 3. DR> was 2 or 3 to 1 against Wellstone. The Republican Senatorial committee is DR> just *throwing* money into the race, and that ends up putting Wellstone on DR> the defensive. If the campaign revolves around "who's the biggest spender" DR> it won't bode well for Wellstone. I think the RNC is panicking. Besides the fact that they know Wellstone is a world class enemy, I am also hearing a groundswell that there is serious belief that the Dems can take over both houses of congress again. If that happened, Gengrich would probably resign as Speaker. Now get this -- the people standing in line to assume committee chairmanships are radical liberals like Teddy Kennedy. In their stupidity and extremism. the repubs ran moderate dems like Tim Penny and others off. Talking heads were full of it today. No wonder the RNC is scared. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Retro `67 Date: Sun Sep 22 07:40:57 CDT 1996 Message number: 30 Reply to message number: 28 DR> Barkley's not a bad cantidate, though I think in `real life' he's just a DR> But he's not a bad guy, seems to speak from the heart. I have to give him DR> credit for that at least. That's true. I value any straight-talking, honest politician of any party. DR> the typical conservative politician, equating government with running a DR> business. Sadly, that analogy isn't just faulty - it's really destructive, DR> running the government and American economy like a business is pretty damne DR> destructive. DR> I haven't heard him too much on this. Of course it is faulty. Business actions have to be based first-off on the ROI. Government actions, by definition, cannot. Military, for example. Where is the monetary return for the billions of dollars we spend on defense? There would be more money made from building toll bridges. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Froggy Subject: Re: Retro `67 Date: Sun Sep 22 15:17:41 CDT 1996 Message number: 31 Reply to message number: 29 F> I think the RNC is panicking. We can only dream. If the Democrats regain control of the House or Senate, I'll be rather surprised. I assume it will probably get closer in both houses, but I don't think the years of divided government are over yet. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Birrenbach Date: Tue Oct 29 17:37:23 CST 1996 Message number: 32 Reply to message number: unavailable John Birrenbach, AKA Institute For Hemp sent me mail this morning letting me know that he will be on the radio Friday morning - probably between 8:30 and 9:00 in the morning on KSTP AM 1500, in case anyone's interested in hearing why he's running for President. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: ALL Subject: Senate Camp Date: Fri Nov 01 18:24:42 CST 1996 Message number: 33 Reply to message number: unavailable October 23, 1996 In Minnesota Race, Negative Ads Outnumber the Lakes By DAVID E. ROSENBAUM MINNEAPOLIS -- On the screen are a faded Capitol on a gray background and a cartoon figure with the distorted face of Sen. Paul Wellstone. With clown music playing, a cartoon arm pops out holding a sign reading, "LIBERAL." The announcer in the 30-second television commercial says: "Since he's been in Washington, Paul Wellstone has cast one liberal vote after another. He voted against the balanced-budget amendment. He voted against the death penalty for murderers, terrorists and drug kingpins. And he's voted against workfare time and again. Paul Wellstone voted for higher taxes 48 times. He even voted to raise taxes on some Social Security benefits. And he's rated the No.1 spender in the entire Senate. Paul Wellstone: embarrassingly liberal and out of touch." Former Sen. Rudy Boschwitz and the National Republican Senatorial Committee have been running advertisements like this incessantly for most of this year as Boschwitz tries to regain the Senate seat from Minnesota that he lost to Wellstone in 1990. But the negative campaign may have boomeranged. A statewide poll taken two weeks ago by The Minneapolis Star Tribune and WCCO-TV asked voters whether they had seen television advertisements about the Senate race and whether the commercials had generally made them more likely to vote for Boschwitz or Wellstone. Of the 900 voters surveyed, 90 percent said they had watched advertisements about the race, which have been running round the clock on television. Although the number of Boschwitz advertisements this year have far exceeded those for Wellstone, 44 percent of the voters said the advertisements had made them more likely to vote for the senator, and only 30 percent said Boschwitz. Moreover, in the last month, when the advertising bombardment has been heaviest, voters' opinion of Wellstone rose and their opinion of Boschwitz fell, the poll showed. The Boschwitz advertisements "have had a hard-edged and caustic tone that I would expect irritates people," said Steven Schier, chairman of the political science department at Carleton College in Northfield, Minn. "Negative ads have worked here in the past, but this may be overkill." While Boschwitz has been running negative advertisements almost entirely, Wellstone has broadcast a mix. About half his commercials describe his position on issues. The other half usually begin with his stand on an issue, then take a shot at Boschwitz and then return to a positive statement about Wellstone. The Wellstone seat is one that Democrats believe that they must hold if they are to stand any chance of regaining control of the Senate. Republicans now have a majority in the Senate of 53 to 47. Assuming President Clinton is re-elected, giving Vice President Al Gore the tie-breaking vote, Democrats must have a net gain of three seats to have a majority. The Minnesota race is close. The same Star Tribune/WCCO poll showed Wellstone ahead by nine percentage points, but other recent polls have shown a closer race. The two candidates could hardly be more different in their personalities and ideologies. There is a touch of Fiorello La Guardia in Wellstone, a hyperactive little man with a high-pitched voice who wants to kiss every baby he sees and shake every hand he can reach. A former college professor, he took his battered green school bus, his rolling campaign headquarters, to the University of Minnesota homecoming parade on Saturday and waved joyously from the rear platform. Periodically, the 52-year-old senator jumped off the bus to slap hands with students outside a fraternity house or to get thrown in the air on a hand-held trampoline. He craves attention from reporters and seems to gain nourishment from crowds. Probably the most liberal Democrat in the Senate, he is the only incumbent running for re-election who voted against the Republican welfare bill that Clinton signed last month. He advocates universal, government-run medical insurance and increased spending on education and environmental protection. Boschwitz, 65, tall, thin and gray-haired, is more reserved. He made a fortune in the plywood business and was known around the state before he was first elected to the Senate in 1978 because of his appearances in television commercials promoting his business. He served two terms in the Senate before being ousted by Wellstone, who won 50 percent of the vote to 48 percent. Boschwitz went to the homecoming parade, too, on Saturday. But he spent less time than Wellstone, marched with more reserve when he was there and drew less notice. He clearly prefers campaigning in small groups and in predictable settings without reporters. Ideologically, Boschwitz embraces most of the national Republican economic and social agenda, including deep tax cuts, fewer government regulations and limits on spending for social programs. Not surprisingly, Wellstone said he expected the advertising attack against him to backfire. "People have become angry with how disrespectful it is," he said. But Boschwitz said he had no reason to apologize. "Our ads," he said, "have had a sense of purpose and a sense of humor, and I'm happy with them." "We call it defining the opposition," he added. He also professed no concern about the latest poll showing him trailing. "I was nine points ahead in the polls in 1990, and I lost," he said. Copyright 1996 The New York Times ---------------------------------------------------- "I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty; we are called on by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism." - Randall Terry, head of Operation Rescue Kemp has had a lot to say about Dole lately-- most of it right on: -"When he (Dole) talks about the future it's time to grab your wallets." -"I am convinced that Senator Dole has a secret plan to raise taxes on the American people." -"Bob says he offers real leadership. He's right - backward, not forward." - "Devoid of any vision." - "Never met a tax he didn't hike." ... Be true to your teeth or your teeth will be false to you. ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Sandman Subject: Re: Senate Camp Date: Fri Nov 01 22:10:39 CST 1996 Message number: 34 Reply to message number: 33 S> The Boschwitz advertisements "have had a hard-edged and caustic tone S> that I would expect irritates people," said Steven Schier, chairman of the S> political science department at Carleton College in Northfield, Minn. S> "Negative ads have worked here in the past, but this may be overkill." S> S> "People have become angry with how disrespectful it is," he said. S> S> But Boschwitz said he had no reason to apologize. S> S> "Our ads," he said, "have had a sense of purpose and a sense of humor, S> and I'm happy with them." S> I hope he iked their results. It was grating on my nerves, when I heard that hateful, accusative voice lying about Wellstone over and over, but hell, what do I know? I like Wellstone and never have liked Boschwitz. I am delighted to hear that it had the same effect on other voters. S> Boschwitz went to the homecoming parade, too, on Saturday. But he spent S> less time than Wellstone, marched with more reserve when he was there and S> drew less notice. He clearly prefers campaigning in small groups and in S> predictable settings without reporters. S> That is, small groups of rich Republicans with fat checkbooks. That way he doesn't have to associate and actually TOUCH the rabble. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARING DIANE J. To: SANDMAN Subject: Liberals Date: Fri Nov 08 05:01:27 CST 1996 Message number: 35 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Sandman to All <=- > a sign reading, "LIBERAL." A Quaker I met a few months ago from the San Francisco Bay Area was astounded that "liberal" is not a shameful, dirty word in Minnesota. I had lunch with him after he testified to the Legislature's Electric Energy Task Force his conclusion that in 20 years, with aggressive energy laws enacted, Minnesota could become energy self-sufficient without relying on nuclear power or im- ported fuels to generate electricity. NSP's supporters in the Legislature did not like what that Quaker energy consultant had to say. Anyway, he re- marked in a private conversation that "socialist" and "liberal" seemed to be respectable labels in Minnesota and that such folk were acceptable. Yes, I replied, nothing to feel inferior about; I'm proud to be a liberal. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daring Diane J. Subject: Re: Liberals Date: Fri Nov 08 08:00:53 CST 1996 Message number: 36 Reply to message number: 35 DD> A Quaker I met a few months ago from the San Francisco Bay Area was DD> astounded that "liberal" is not a shameful, dirty word in Minnesota. I DD> had lunch with him after he testified to the Legislature's Electric Energy DD> Task Force his conclusion that in 20 years, with aggressive energy laws DD> enacted, Minnesota Do I know this Quaker? Do you mind telling me who he was? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Election '98 Date: Wed Nov 20 19:22:37 CST 1996 Message number: 37 Reply to message number: unavailable So, now that this campaign is over the next big race coming up is the one for governor. Anyone have a favorite pick, someone they find least objectionable or most electable? Seems like since the big 3 Democratic cantidates (Humphrey, Mondale and Freeman) have all pledged not to honor the party endorsement process and go to the primary even if they lose, that throws the whole thing open ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Election '98 Date: Thu Nov 21 03:59:37 CST 1996 Message number: 38 Reply to message number: 37 DR> governor. Anyone have a favorite pick, someone they find least objectionab DR> or most electable? DR> DR> Seems like since the big 3 Democratic cantidates (Humphrey, Mondale and DR> Freeman) have all pledged not to honor the party endorsement process and go DR> the primary even if they lose, that throws the whole thing open ... I am not aware of Humphrey or Mondale vowing to sidestep the endorsement. I know that Freeman has said that he will. This doesn't throw it open at all. As long as party loyalists like me refuse to support sidestepping candidates and the general public does not vote in the Primary election, there will *never* be a chance for a sidestepping candidate to win. There are also several other possible DFL candidates around, including George Latimer and Sharon Sayles Belton. Still pretty early, and we also have to think about filling a certain senate seat that will be up in the next election. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Froggy Subject: Re: Election '98 Date: Thu Nov 21 11:19:30 CST 1996 Message number: 39 Reply to message number: 38 F> I am not aware of Humphrey or Mondale vowing to sidestep the F> endorsement. I know that Freeman has said that he will. That's what I've heard repeated by several reliable sources, so I tend to think it's true. Of the pack so far, Freeman, Coleman and Mondale are about the most reprehensible choices - Huphrey less so, but if he wants to bypass the endorsement and go onto the primary then he's going to alienate a lot of supporters. F> it open at all. As long as party loyalists like me refuse to support F> sidestepping candidates and the general public does not vote in the Primary F> election, there will *never* be a chance for a sidestepping candidate to win There's always a chance, it also depends on who the new state DFL chair will be (the only person I know anything about, Blois Olson, seems like a class-A jerk). But anyways, if there are going to be 3 or more "big name" cantidates splitting the anti-endorsed DFLer vote, there's no chance of one of them winning the primary. I just hope we don't end up with another John Marty, weneed someone who won't go through a new campaign manager each time he changes his shorts. F> There are also several other possible DFL candidates around, including Georg F> Latimer and Sharon Sayles Belton. Still pretty early, and we also have to F> think about filling a certain senate seat that will be up in the next F> election. What Senate seat is that? Wellstone just got re-elected, and Grams still has 4 more years before he has to run for re-election. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Election '98 Date: Thu Nov 21 13:36:20 CST 1996 Message number: 40 Reply to message number: 39 DR> There's always a chance, it also depends on who the new state DFL chair wi DR> be (the only person I know anything about, Blois Olson, seems like a class- DR> jerk). DR> Don't fool yourself. The chair has little auch power on his own. I have managed to finagle an alternate seat to the State Central Committee, which will be meeting in January. It will be interesting to sniff around and see what is in the wind there. DR> But anyways, if there are going to be 3 or more "big name" cantidates DR> splitting the anti-endorsed DFLer vote, there's no chance of one of them DR> winning the primary. I just hope we don't end up with another John Marty, DR> weneed someone who won't go through a new campaign manager each time he DR> changes his shorts. DR> The only one who had a ghost of a chance to do that is Freeman, because he has a lot of Labor support. However, that was because a lot of labor was pissed at Irv. Now with Irv's demise , labor is more settled down and less likely to revolt. I talked with Marty about a month ago and we talked about his management problems. There was much more there than met the eye. DR> What Senate seat is that? Wellstone just got re-elected, and Grams still h DR> 4 more years before he has to run for re-election. Grams, of course. It will take 4 years to get enough money to defeat him. Or pass election reform, whichever comes first. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Froggy Subject: Re: Election '98 Date: Sat Nov 23 16:20:34 CST 1996 Message number: 41 Reply to message number: 40 F> Don't fool yourself. The chair has little auch power on his own. F> have managed to finagle an alternate seat to the State Central Committee, F> which will be meeting in January. It will be interesting to sniff around an F> see what is in the wind there. The 500,000-member Central committee, eh? It would surprise me if that many people could agree on anything, much less settle on a Party chairperson. Anyways, let us know what happens there. I hear that Martin Sabo has dropped his hat into the ring, it should prove to be interesting. F> The only one who had a ghost of a chance to do that is Freeman, F> because he has a lot of Labor support. Why in the world would labor support Freeman? He's just a pro-choice Norm Coleman, isn't he? F> settled down and less likely to revolt. I talked with Marty about a month a F> and we talked about his management problems. There was much more there than F> met the eye. There always is, but waging such a bad campaign doesn't speak well for his ability to run the state. He seems like an intelligent, decent guy ... but unfortunately, that doesn't always translate into the ability to govern well. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Election '98 Date: Sun Nov 24 07:48:26 CST 1996 Message number: 42 Reply to message number: 41 DR> The 500,000-member Central committee, eh? It would surprise me if that man DR> people could agree on anything, much less settle on a Party chairperson. DR> Which Central Committee did you have in mind? The one I am talking about has an attendance of about 500. They agree like DFLers normally do -- rarely on the floor, but resoundingly when the committees roll up their sleeves and pound out an issue. DR> Anyways, let us know what happens there. I hear that Martin Sabo has DR> dropped his hat into the ring, it should prove to be interesting. DR> Candidates are so numerous that they are like roaches, running everywhere. But to hear the media tell it, you would think there are only the 3 sons candidates. I guess they just think that is more sexy than announcing that there are at least 10 announced and unannounced candidates, and most of them are *not* sons of historical figures. As far as I know, Skip Humphrey hasn't announced yet. DR> Why in the world would labor support Freeman? He's just a pro-choice Norm DR> Coleman, isn't he? DR> Darned if I know. I have asked a few laborites that and they can't seem to explain it either. I think he *does* have more substance than Coleman, who a lot of people think should join the other party. F> settled down and less likely to revolt. I talked with Marty about a month a F> and we talked about his management problems. There was much more there than DR> ability to run the state. He seems like an intelligent, decent guy ... but DR> unfortunately, that doesn't always translate into the ability to govern wel I think you are right. I also think that it is tragic that a person can't govern because he is intelligent and decent. But that does seem to be the pattern. It happened to Jimmy Carter, Mondale, and a number of others. Then, ilk like Helms gets reelected. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Froggy Subject: Re: Election '98 Date: Mon Nov 25 16:24:02 CST 1996 Message number: 43 Reply to message number: 42 F> Which Central Committee did you have in mind? The one I am talking F> about has an attendance of about 500. They agree like DFLers normally do -- 500, 500,000 ... same difference :-) When i think of a `central committee', I guess I think of a dozen old men shomping on Cuban cigars in the back of a grungly little bar, leering at pretty women, drinking heavily, making off-color jokes, and when they find time deciding who the cantidate is going to be. F> them are *not* sons of historical figures. As far as I know, Skip Humphrey F> hasn't announced yet. He's forming a campaign committee, but he's definately going to run for governor. I think he's one of the least objectionable cantidates out there, but if he won't respect the nomination then he can go *(#$&*(&$ himself. F> I think you are right. I also think that it is tragic that a perso F> can't govern because he is intelligent and decent. But that does seem to be F> the pattern. It happened to Jimmy Carter, Mondale, and a number of others. But they do make great legislators ... just not good executives. Every legislature needs a couple of Martys and Wellstones to keep them honest (and a token Dornan for comic relief). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Election '98 Date: Sat Dec 23 16:32:17 CST 1995 Message number: 44 Reply to message number: 43 DR> When i think of a `central committee', I guess I think of a dozen old men DR> shomping on Cuban cigars in the back of a grungly little bar, leering at DR> pretty women, drinking heavily, making off-color jokes, and when they find Obviously, you have never been to a State Central Committee meeting. Want to go with me in January? I've got wheels now, and could use another driver. DR> but if he won't respect the nomination then he can go *(#$&*(&$ himself. DR> Yup. A pox on all their houses. F> I think you are right. I also think that it is tragic that a perso F> can't govern because he is intelligent and decent. But that does seem to be F> the pattern. It happened to Jimmy Carter, Mondale, and a number of others. DR> DR> But they do make great legislators ... just not good executives. Every DR> legislature needs a couple of Martys and Wellstones to keep them honest (an DR> token Dornan for comic relief). I think we can do without the Dormans. Good, honest politicians are often also very funny. Remember Tip O'Neill? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THROCKMORTON To: DAEDALUS RISING Subject: Election '98 Date: Tue Dec 03 11:42:24 CST 1996 Message number: 45 Reply to message number: unavailable DR> So, now that this campaign is over the next big race coming up is the one >governor. Anyone have a favorite pick, someone they find least objectionab >or most electable? Roy Terwilliger, but he won't get the nomination. From what I know of him, he seems to think the ideas over, and tries to avoid knee-jerk reactions on the issues. --- þ OLX 1.53 þ DON'T USE ERROR CORRECTION! You'll have no e-mail left! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Throckmorton Subject: Re: Election '98 Date: Tue Dec 03 15:42:45 CST 1996 Message number: 46 Reply to message number: 45 DR> So, now that this campaign is over the next big race coming up is the one T> >governor. Anyone have a favorite pick, someone they find least objection T> >or most electable? T> T> Roy Terwilliger, but he won't get the nomination. From what I know of T> him, he seems to think the ideas over, and tries to avoid knee-jerk T> reactions on the issues. I've heard the name, but don't know much about him. Would you mind elaborating a bit on the guy's background and ideas? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Throckmorton Subject: Re: Election '98 Date: Tue Dec 03 16:44:40 CST 1996 Message number: 47 Reply to message number: 45 T> Roy Terwilliger, but he won't get the nomination. From what I know of T> him, he seems to think the ideas over, and tries to avoid knee-jerk T> reactions on the issues. Actually, I like Terwilliger, too. He is a decent moderate Republican. of which there aren't too many left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Election '98 Date: Tue Dec 03 16:50:31 CST 1996 Message number: 48 Reply to message number: 46 DR> I've heard the name, but don't know much about him. Would you mind DR> elaborating a bit on the guy's background and ideas? One thing I know about him is that he opposed a bill that was sponsored by 2 DFLers and signed by Arne. I also opposed that bill, ans since then,there have been some changes in the way the new law is applied. Terwilliger does not vote on the straight IR caucus lins. As Throck said, he thinks things through and makes a thoughtful decision. Both parties need more like him. I also agree with Throck that he could not be nominated. In the state the IR Party is in now, the right-wingers will probably think he is too moderate. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Proportional Representation Date: Wed Dec 04 01:16:33 CST 1996 Message number: 49 Reply to message number: unavailable From shove001@maroon.tc.umn.edu Wed Dec 4 06:24:52 1996 Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 01:26:35 -0600 (CST) From: David Shove To: MN-Politics Subject: PR & the Mpls City Council P R A N D T H E M I N N E A P O L I S C I T Y C O U N C I L If PR (proportional representation, or preference voting) were used for the 13-member Minneapolis City Council race, 7.7% (1/13th) of the vote would elect a member. On the Minneapolis City Council now it's 11 of 13 seats for the DFL. A respected DFL numbers person says Mpls is 2 to 1 DFL to GOP - about 64% to 32%, with maybe 4% remaining for other parties [as things have been with the choices presented]. With fair representation (viz PR), the GOP would have 4 seats, the DFL 8 or 9, with maybe one for a third party. Odds are, once real choice opened up, third parties might take 2-4 seats; Libertarian/Reform 1 or 2 from the GOP, Green and New 1 each from the DFL, leaving the DFL with about 7. Quite a drop from 11. Can you begin to guess what the DFL's position might be on fairer representation? Or that of the mega-corporations toward a system with Green and New party council members? Now, the GOP _should_ by the numbers be for fairer representation - it means more seats for them. It would, however, mean displeasing their main source of money, the corporations. So they'd have a hard time deciding. Ditto for the DFL; having got more money from corporations than labor this last year, they pay very close attention biz (eg NSP, Northwest Airlines) preferences. Less money, and fewer seats. Even more reason for them to dislike fairer representation. The GOP, the DFL hack mainstream, and the corporations - the main beneficiaries of the present unfair unrepresentative system - versus all the rest of us (minus of course those of us beguiled by largely unrealistic dreams of "making it big"). Fairer representation won't come from the major corporations, major media, or major parties. But it's so _obviously_ the _right_ thing to do that the system will have to yield if we in significant numbers unrelentingly demand it. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Throckmorton Subject: Re: Election '98 Date: Wed Dec 04 16:10:55 CST 1996 Message number: 50 Reply to message number: 45 T> Roy Terwilliger, but he won't get the nomination. From what I know of T> him, he seems to think the ideas over, and tries to avoid knee-jerk T> reactions on the issues. I'm interested in him. He's my father's uncle, though they're not too far apart in age. So he's my great-uncle or something like that. From what I've heard he's a pretty good man, of course that was from family members. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THROCKMORTON To: DAEDALUS RISING Subject: Re: Election '98 Date: Thu Dec 05 11:27:21 CST 1996 Message number: 51 Reply to message number: unavailable >T> Roy Terwilliger, but he won't get the nomination. From what I know of >T> him, he seems to think the ideas over, and tries to avoid knee-jerk >T> reactions on the issues. DR> I've heard the name, but don't know much about him. Would you mind >elaborating a bit on the guy's background and ideas? I don't know to much either. He ran for the U.S. Senate this last election, but with Boschwitz, McKasy, and the fruity hair dresser he didn't get much attention. From what I do know he is the type of person that would ask, "Why isn't this program working, and what has to be done to fix it? Can we fix it, and if so is it worth it?" --- þ OLX 1.53 þ Dogs come when you call. Cats have answering machines. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: The new stadium Date: Wed Jan 01 19:20:28 CST 1997 Message number: 52 Reply to message number: unavailable Seems like the Twins want a new stadium, and want us all to pay for it. If that happens, the Vikings will want the Dome fixed up and turned over to them, Minneapolis will want convention center money, and St Paul will want hockey money. So, anyone care to take a guess as to how this whole stadium business with the Twins will pan out? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BADLANDS To: ,, Subject: , Date: Thu Jan 02 22:33:22 CST 1997 Message number: 53 Reply to message number: unavailable i'm hoping that the Twins leave town. otherwise, I don't care to think what will happen. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BADLANDS To: . Subject: . Date: Thu Jan 02 22:35:18 CST 1997 Message number: 54 Reply to message number: unavailable so, I'm wondering.... what sort of effect does* sports have on the area? is it positive or negative? (money-hungry franchises and meatheaded jocks aside) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Badlands Subject: Re: , Date: Fri Jan 03 09:14:47 CST 1997 Message number: 55 Reply to message number: 53 B> i'm hoping that the Twins leave town. Yeah, they're losing money so badly. Poor Carl Pohlad. Can't have anything to do with the unresolved player/management strike, could it? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Badlands Subject: Re: . Date: Fri Jan 03 09:20:14 CST 1997 Message number: 56 Reply to message number: 54 B> so, I'm wondering.... what sort of effect does* sports have on the area? i B> it positive or negative? (money-hungry franchises and meatheaded jocks aside I think it's a toss-up, both good and bad. If there are affable dolts like Kirby Pucket around, it presents a halfway decent role model for kids. It gives the town a sense of unity once in a while, keeping the drunk jocks occupied ... but then again, we have drunk testosterone-laden athletes raging around the town, sportscasters who waste 5 minutes of each "news"cast on the sports, and kids who think there's nothing better in life than to be a professional athlete (when few ever succeed). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: , Date: Fri Jan 03 12:33:43 CST 1997 Message number: 57 Reply to message number: 55 B> i'm hoping that the Twins leave town. DR> DR> Yeah, they're losing money so badly. Poor Carl Pohlad. Can't have anything DR> do with the unresolved player/management strike, could it? It is irritating me a lot to hear them claiming that the reason the public is not attending Twins games is that they need a new stadium. What they NEEDED was to not trade off Viola and most of their good players and not cancel the entire baseball season while they argued about who got to be the biggest millionaire. I am spending what time and money I have to go to Saints games. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Sat Jan 04 07:22:48 CST 1997 Message number: 58 Reply to message number: 52 DR> So, anyone care to take a guess as to how this whole stadium business with DR> the Twins will pan out? I'd just as soon the Twins leave as we pay to have them build a multi-million dollar stadium so they can reap more profit benefiting only the owners. I have to say that I think the entire idea of giving the Twins money to build a stadium is ridiculous. I haven't seen anything that would suggest that the Twin Cities would receive any benefits monetarily or otherwise to cancel out the enormous monetary cost of building a stadium. And if we aren't receiving any real benefits then I have to ask why we would ever spend a hundred million dollars for nothing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Sat Jan 04 08:18:40 CST 1997 Message number: 59 Reply to message number: 58 S> I'd just as soon the Twins leave as we pay to have them build a multi-millio S> dollar stadium so they can reap more profit benefiting only the owners. I S> have to say that I think the entire idea of giving the Twins money to build S> stadium is ridiculous. I haven't seen anything that would suggest that S> the Twin Cities would receive any benefits monetarily or otherwise to cancel So would I. In fact, more multi-million dollar sports arenas are costing the city, for more police for crows control, roads, sewers, and more police and courts because of increased crime. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Specter Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Sat Jan 04 18:34:36 CST 1997 Message number: 60 Reply to message number: 58 S> out the enormous monetary cost of building a stadium. And if we aren't S> receiving any real benefits then I have to ask why we would ever spend a S> hundred million dollars for nothing. Because the Twins won the world series in 1987 and 1991, and deserve a new stadium. Because baseball and sports bring the communitiy together! At least, that's what former baseball star Kirby Puckett would like us to believe. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Sun Jan 05 08:28:06 CST 1997 Message number: 61 Reply to message number: 60 DR> Because the Twins won the world series in 1987 and 1991, and deserve a new DR> stadium. Because baseball and sports bring the communitiy together! DR> DR> At least, that's what former baseball star Kirby Puckett would like us to DR> believe. I'm somewhat surprised to see a couple of posts down on Kirby. I don't think Kirby is the greatest man who ever lived, but anybody who focuses on him as the locus of evil in this stadium battle is missing the point. One of Kirby's most positive points, other than his talent, is his loyalty. That's one of the big reasons that he's so popular in MN; his loyalty to the club overwhelmed the expected sense of greed inherant in a professional athlete. I actually see Kirby's situation as tragic. He's built up a tremendous positive image in the state, especially as a role model for kids, and now because of his loyalty to the organization who made him a star, he'll spend all of the coin of his good name in this quixotic quest to gain a new stadium. Part of the reason that the Twins want a new stadium is not greed, but equity. The Metrodome was built for the Vikings, and it shows all over (or do you really think the Twins wanted to put a Hefty bag in right field?). It was expected that the underground design of the stadium would preclude the need for air conditioning. Perhaps it would in winter, during the depths of the Vikings season, but the first week of games in the Dome during the '82 inaugural Twins season demonstrated that AC was definately needed for baseball. Heck, look at the concession rules; the Vikings get a cut of all concessions sold in the Dome, even if the event isn't a Vikes game. The Twins, looking at the financial arrangement in the Dome, are convinced (and rightly so) that they are getting screwed for the Vikings' benefit. The irony is that now the Vikings can barely sell out the stadium for a couple of games each season (and the Packer game is sold out largely because 20-25,000 seats each year are bought out by cheeseheads). On the other hand, I am a baseball fan and I'd much rather see the Vikings leave town than the Twins. I like the Saints, but I'm astounded that most people can't see that the Saints are the beneficiaries of the system that discriminates against the Twins: Minneapolis is a large market, but it is significantly smaller than the markets in Chicago, New York, Baltimore, Atlanta, and Los Angeles where the current powerhouses are. On the other hand, St. Paul (with many Minneapolitans also fans of the Saints) is far larger a market than Sioux Falls, Duluth/Superior, or Madison. If the Twins are symbols of a giant, impersonal corporation, then the Saints are symbols of the wealthy local family who terrorizes its rivals to remain on top. Why didn't Jack Morris go to Duluth? Why didn't Darryl Strawberry go to Madison? Because St. Paul is the New York of the Northern League. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Sun Jan 05 10:07:39 CST 1997 Message number: 62 Reply to message number: 60 DR> Because the Twins won the world series in 1987 and 1991, and deserve a new DR> stadium. Because baseball and sports bring the communitiy together! DR> DR> At least, that's what former baseball star Kirby Puckett would like us to DR> believe. Most of the Twins who won those series are gone. They have been sold off to the highest bidder. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Sun Jan 05 12:14:47 CST 1997 Message number: 63 Reply to message number: 61 DT> I'm somewhat surprised to see a couple of posts down on Kirby. I don't thi DT> Kirby is the greatest man who ever lived, but anybody who focuses on him as DT> the locus of evil in this stadium battle is missing the point. One of Kirb DT> most positive points, other than his talent, is his loyalty. That's one of DT> the big reasons that he's so popular in MN; his loyalty to the club DT> overwhelmed the expected sense of greed inherant in a professional athlete. DT> actually see Kirby's situation as tragic. The problem with Kirby is twofold, methinks. First of all, the guy is still making many millions of dollars despite being unable to play - and then takes a job as a VP at the Twins, for an additional $500,000 a year. If he is such a loyal man, why not work for his milion+ per year (at least until his contract runs out) ... does he really need the extra cash? More important, though, is a general sense of frustration from people who don't want a stadium and are afraid that it's being shoved down their throats. Besides the (retiring) governor, Puckett is the only figure they can lash out against. It doesn't help that he's trying to use his popularity to sell the state on a new publicly funded stadium, for which many fans might be feeling a sense of betrayal. Hawking burgers is one thing, but fucking the state's taxpayers is another. DT> Part of the reason that the Twins want a new stadium is not greed, but DT> equity. Yep, the done wasn't designed to make baseball fans happy. It was made to keep the Vikings happy, and to ensure that the baseball ticket revenue would be sure and strong. With no rained-out games, there'd be no need for refunds. It may not be an ideal stadium for the players or fans, but trust me - the accountants love it. The short of it is, if the Twins want a new stadium let 'em have it. But until they've tapped their own pockets and looked for private investment, they should not be looking to the state for a handout. This isn't the 70s, we don't have money to keep essential services like roads and schools fully funded anymore ... so stadiums, being on the nonessential list, are going to be a hell of a hard sell. DT> leave town than the Twins. I like the Saints, but I'm astounded that most DT> people can't see that the Saints are the beneficiaries of the system that DT> discriminates against the Twins: Minneapolis is a large market, but it is That may all be true, but it is in the owners' best interest to keep the teams compeittive by any means necessary, even severe revenue sharing. If they can't run their own businesses, then why should we care ...? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Badlands Subject: Re: . Date: Sun Jan 05 19:39:27 CST 1997 Message number: 64 Reply to message number: 54 B> so, I'm wondering.... what sort of effect does* sports have on the area? i B> it positive or negative? (money-hungry franchises and meatheaded jocks aside * put it this way...you're looking at a state where they just hired a new university president-- for *one half* the money they're paying the new football coach. if anyone ever needed a direct statement of priorities, this is it. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Mon Jan 06 15:55:39 CST 1997 Message number: 65 Reply to message number: 63 DR> The problem with Kirby is twofold, methinks. First of all, the guy is stil DR> making many millions of dollars despite being unable to play - and then tak DR> a job as a VP at the Twins, for an additional $500,000 a year. If he is suc DR> loyal man, why not work for his milion+ per year (at least until his DR> contract runs out) ... does he really need the extra cash? I'm a bit surprised, Daedalus. I figured you as much as anybody would know that, in a capitalist society, you don't receive according to your needs, but rather according to your perceived value to the holders of capital. That's why we just went through a hellish fight to raise the minimum wage and wind up settling for an amount that still leaves those wage-earners below the poverty line. Yes, Kirby signed a contract worth millions of dollars to play baseball; at the time he was being offered even more to play for another team. Kirby didn't do anything to welch on the contract; his glaucoma is a legitimate "act of God" (so to speak). Plus, no other team would now trade to get his contract, knowing that he won't play another game of baseball. So the Twin's are stuck, and I for one am glad to know that the rich guys at least play by their own rules. Now, the Twins ownership wants Kirby to work for them. This has nothing to do with Kirby's playing contract; there are different duties being described here. So, another contract is in order. The question is, how much is it worth to the Twins ownership to get Kirby in the front office? Answer: $500 million. And they wouldn't even pay that much if they didn't think Kirby could bring a far greater return (say, a publicly funded stadium?). DR> More important, though, is a general sense of frustration from people who DR> don't want a stadium and are afraid that it's being shoved down their DR> throats. Besides the (retiring) governor, Puckett is the only figure they c DR> lash out against. A good point. Even better is the realization that the Twins made Kirby the front man on this issue exactly because so many people would feel terrible about "lashing out" against Puckett. It really is a "stealth" campaign. The thing that bothers me most about this issue is that nobody behind the stadium push seems willing to admit that there's a new, privately funded stadium going up in San Francisco--Pac Bell Park. I get the impression that going to Pac Bell Park will be unpleasantly like going to a drive-in movie where they project the movie onto an advertising billboard, but the point is still valid--no public money is going to pay for the stadium, and nobody here seems to have heard of it. DR> Hawking burgers is one thing, but fucking the DR> state's taxpayers is another. C'mon Daedalus, the stadium wasn't Kirby's idea. I admit that usually the excuse that "I was just following orders" is a cop-out, but I think it applies here. DR> The short of it is, if the Twins want a new stadium let 'em have it. But DR> until they've tapped their own pockets and looked for private investment, t Agreed. DR> This isn't the 70s, we don't DR> have money to keep essential services like roads and schools fully funded DR> anymore ... so stadiums, being on the nonessential list, are going to be a DR> hell of a hard sell. I disagree. We could keep schools and roads fully funded; on the whole, they take up very little of the federal budget. The savings from the welfare reform bill amounts to less than 1/10 of one percent of the federal budget, or enough money to pay about a week's worth of the interest on the current federal debt. Pay off the debt by shrinking the military and consolidating hundreds of different procurement systems into a few easily administered, easily audited systems, and very soon we'll have all the money we need for social services (assuming the baby boomers don't bankrupt us all first). DT> leave town than the Twins. I like the Saints, but I'm astounded that most DT> people can't see that the Saints are the beneficiaries of the system that DT> discriminates against the Twins: Minneapolis is a large market, but it is DR> DR> That may all be true, but it is in the owners' best interest to keep the DR> teams compeittive by any means necessary, even severe revenue sharing. If DR> they can't run their own businesses, then why should we care ...? My point was that many people I know who like the Saints claim to do so based on the belief that the Saints don't participate in "corporate" baseball; that their hands are cleaner than those of the Twins. My argument is that the Saints are guiltier than the Twins: the Twins are largely victims of the corporate structure of major league baseball supported by Steinbrenner and Turner, but the Saints are the Steinbrenner and Turner of the Northern League. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Mon Jan 06 17:03:23 CST 1997 Message number: 66 Reply to message number: 65 DR> The problem with Kirby is twofold, methinks. First of all, the guy is stil DR> making many millions of dollars despite being unable to play - and then tak DR> a job as a VP at the Twins, for an additional $500,000 a year. If he is suc DT> I'm a bit surprised, Daedalus. I figured you as much as anybody would know DT> that, in a capitalist society, you don't receive according to your needs, b DT> rather according to your perceived value to the holders of capital. It doesn't have anything to do with money, or the capitalist value of a person's labor. It has to do with the phrase, "Live by the sword, die by the sword". If Kirby wants to be perceived as a honest, honorable, lotal man, then he has a certain image to maintain. To maintain that image, he must live by a higher standard. Part of that standard is maintaining not just the letter of a contract, but the spirit of a contract. In short, he signed up to work for the Twins for millions a year. Just because he can no longer play doesn't mean he can no longer wok for them - he can do so, in a different capacity. Why does he need another half million a year to do so? DT> The thing that bothers me most about this issue is that nobody behind the DT> stadium push seems willing to admit that there's a new, privately funded DT> stadium going up in San Francisco--Pac Bell Park. I get the impression tha DT> going to Pac Bell Park will be unpleasantly like going to a drive-in movie Something which the Reader and City Pages have been great about pointing out, time and time again .... DR> Hawking burgers is one thing, but fucking the DR> state's taxpayers is another. DT> DT> C'mon Daedalus, the stadium wasn't Kirby's idea. I admit that usually the DT> excuse that "I was just following orders" is a cop-out, but I think it appl DT> here. He's not following orders, though. Legally and intellectually, he's a free agent. DR> This isn't the 70s, we don't DR> have money to keep essential services like roads and schools fully funded DR> anymore ... so stadiums, being on the nonessential list, are going to be a DR> hell of a hard sell. DT> DT> I disagree. We could keep schools and roads fully funded; on the whole, th DT> take up very little of the federal budget. Two points; this is the state budget, where money is a lot thinner. Secondly, what you say is true in principle but impossible to hope for with a Republican President and Congress. As things stand now, money for public investment is very scarce. THis limited money should not be going towards stadiums. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Tue Jan 07 12:48:42 CST 1997 Message number: 67 Reply to message number: 66 DR> Part of that standard is maintaining not just the letter DR> of a contract, but the spirit of a contract. In short, he signed up to work DR> for the Twins for millions a year. Just because he can no longer play doesn DR> mean he can no longer wok for them - he can do so, in a different capacity. DR> Why does he need another half million a year to do so? This may surprise you (it did me when I found out about it), but the Twins aren't paying a dime of Kirby's playing contract: their insurance company is. Major league teams routinely take out insurance policies on their long-term star-level guranteed contracts so that they will not be liable for the money in the event that the player is injured and cannot complete the term of the contract. As another example, part of Micheal Williams's Timberwolves contract is being paid by the T-Wolves insurance company; if he were to finally retire instead of contuning rehab (he's been on rehab for two and a half years now), the insurance company would pick up the rest of the salary. However, if Kirby were to return to work with the Twins under his playing contract, it would void the insurance policy and the Twins would have to pay the whole salary again. Thus, the need for a new contract. As for the $500,000, hey, take what The Man will give you. DR> DT> The thing that bothers me most about this issue is that nobody behind the DT> stadium push seems willing to admit that there's a new, privately funded DT> stadium going up in San Francisco--Pac Bell Park. I get the impression tha DT> going to Pac Bell Park will be unpleasantly like going to a drive-in movie DR> DR> Something which the Reader and City Pages have been great about pointing o DR> time and time again .... That's where I found the idea, and I agree. DT> I disagree. We could keep schools and roads fully funded; on the whole, th DT> take up very little of the federal budget. DR> Two points; this is the state budget, where money is a lot thinner. Second DR> what you say is true in principle but impossible to hope for with a DR> Republican President and Congress. As things stand now, money for public DR> investment is very scarce. THis limited money should not be going towards DR> stadiums. Two counterpoints: 1) Isn't there currently a $10 million surplus in the state budget? (And isn't the governor and the legislature acting just like a college kid in assuming they should spend the money on a stereo rather than making an extra payment on the car?) 2) We don't have a Republican President, we have a Democrat whose first act of his first term was to try to gain equal treatment for homosexuals in the military. Plus it's possible as I write this that Newt Gingrich is no longer the Speaker of the House. No more Newt and no more campaigns for Bill would go a long way toward making my pipe dreams a reality. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Tue Jan 07 15:46:41 CST 1997 Message number: 68 Reply to message number: 59 F> So would I. In fact, more multi-million dollar sports arenas are F> costing the city, for more police for crows control, roads, sewers, and more F> police and courts because of increased crime. Oh, how very true. I had forgotten to even consider those. Wow, there seems to be a great imbalance in costs to have a new stadium versus revenues from a new stadium ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Tue Jan 07 15:49:17 CST 1997 Message number: 69 Reply to message number: 60 DR> Because the Twins won the world series in 1987 and 1991, and deserve a new DR> stadium. Because baseball and sports bring the communitiy together! DR> DR> At least, that's what former baseball star Kirby Puckett would like us to DR> believe. Of course, he would. he's an executive now. I'm sure it's in his contract, "you Kirby Puckett, agree to do whatever the hell the owners ask of you from now until eternity (or until we fire you which ever comes first)." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Wed Jan 08 04:13:54 CST 1997 Message number: 70 Reply to message number: 68 F> So would I. In fact, more multi-million dollar sports arenas are F> costing the city, for more police for crows control, roads, sewers, and more F> police and courts because of increased crime. S> S> Oh, how very true. I had forgotten to even consider those. S> S> Wow, there seems to be a great imbalance in costs to have a new stadium vers S> revenues from a new stadium Balance of revenues???? Lessee, a family that makes 12,000 per year has to pay an average of $40 to take their 2 kids to one Twin's game. They get cheap seats and a coke. The players make approximately $5,000,000/year, and team owners make millions. I don't know Pohlad's income. Now, if Pohlad and company get their way, the $12,000 year family can also pay extra tax money to build a stadium. They will certainl;y pay more for the extra police, roads, etc. It is interesting that the stadium proponents have not been talking too much about all the jobs this new stadium will create. Maybe they have noticed that the public knows that 2 or 3 more $5/ hr jobs don't add that much to the community? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Wed Jan 08 13:05:49 CST 1997 Message number: 71 Reply to message number: 70 F> and team owners make millions. I don't know Pohlad's income. Now, if Pohla F> and company get their way, the $12,000 year family can also pay extra tax Last time I heard his total assets, mind you assests not income, was somewhere around $900,000,000. A lot. Pohlad is one of the richest owners in baseball. F> roads, etc. It is interesting that the stadium proponents have not been F> talking too much about all the jobs this new stadium will create. Maybe the F> have noticed that the public knows that 2 or 3 more $5/ hr jobs don't add th F> much to the community? Or that each stadium job costs $120,000 just to create, which was in a report to Congress in 1984. I'm not sure if that includes jobs that transfer over from an old stadium or not, my guess would be that it does, so $120,000 for each job, of which 95% already existed at the old stadium. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Wed Jan 08 19:51:46 CST 1997 Message number: 72 Reply to message number: 67 DT> This may surprise you (it did me when I found out about it), but the Twins DT> aren't paying a dime of Kirby's playing contract: their insurance company I didn't know that, but I'm not surprised. Still, the spirit of the contract remains the same in my eyes. One cannot claim to be loyal, claim to be a great humanitarian, and then haggle for another half million from "The Man" while getting paid off by the insurance company. DT> 1) Isn't there currently a $10 million surplus in the state budget? (And I don't know what the exact number is, but it isn't very much. The number you keep hearing bandied about is a *projected* budget surplus, only a fraction of which is in the state coffers at this time. As for spending that surplus, Federal cutbacks will take a big chunk of it ... as will repaying the schools the money the legislature took from them last session. There won't be many toys bought with that extra cash ... DT> 2) We don't have a Republican President, we have a Democrat Norm claimed to be a Democrat for many years too, but now his true colors are finally showing. I prefer to think of Bill as a closet Republican, it's easier to sleep at night that way. DT> of his first term was to try to gain equal treatment for homosexuals in the DT> military. Plus it's possible as I write this that Newt Gingrich is no long Which he backed off of, and hasn't done a damned thing for homosexiuals since. The only thing he stands firm on are Republican issues, it seems. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Fri Jan 10 09:02:48 CST 1997 Message number: 73 Reply to message number: 71 F> and team owners make millions. I don't know Pohlad's income. Now, if Pohla F> and company get their way, the $12,000 year family can also pay extra tax S> S> Last time I heard his total assets, mind you assests not income, was somewhe S> around $900,000,000. A lot. Pohlad is one of the richest owners in basebal S> Than let him build his own damned stadium. As far as I am concerned, if he can find a city where the people are stupid enough to pay for one for him, let them. They deserve each other. I would rather see us build some new schools and better roads. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Froggy Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Fri Jan 10 14:59:40 CST 1997 Message number: 74 Reply to message number: 73 S> Last time I heard his total assets, mind you assests not income, was somewhe S> around $900,000,000. A lot. Pohlad is one of the richest owners in basebal S> F> Than let him build his own damned stadium. As far as I am concerne F> if he can find a city where the people are stupid enough to pay for one for F> him, let them. They deserve each other. I would rather see us build some n F> schools and better roads. Speaking of the stadium, I hear that your buddy Senator Novak is embroiled in this whole stadium mess. Any idea what's going on there? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Fri Jan 10 17:04:00 CST 1997 Message number: 75 Reply to message number: 73 F> Than let him build his own damned stadium. As far as I am concerne F> if he can find a city where the people are stupid enough to pay for one for F> him, let them. They deserve each other. I would rather see us build some n F> schools and better roads. I quite agree. Pohlad's rich, and we could use new school stuff... and better roads. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Sat Jan 11 04:34:25 CST 1997 Message number: 76 Reply to message number: 72 DR> As for spending that surplus, Federal cutbacks will take a big chunk of it DR> ... as will repaying the schools the money the legislature took from them DR> last session. There won't be many toys bought with that extra cash ... I dunno. The way it looks right now, the executive appears to be trying to "uphold the spirit of the law" by forbidding states from using their own money to compensate for the federal cutbacks. Some might think of that as draconian and ultra-Republican: I think it's a ploy. Some state (perhaps even Minnesota, but more likely Massachusetts) is likely to challenge the new law in court, resulting in a restraining order and a ruling of unconstitutionality. Since the President couldn't veto the bill without seeming radical, he is instead going to enter into a partnership with the states and the court system against the Congress to subvert the bill, all while seeming to be it's biggest booster. Don't laugh; the Pres is really that savvy (or at least his wife is; this might be her idea...) DR> Norm claimed to be a Democrat for many years too, but now his true colors DR> are finally showing. Norm didn't switch because he's a Republican, he switched because he's a mercenary. Rather than trash what will supposedly be "creampuff" Democratic opposition in the primary, he wants to try and trash it in the general election. To do that, he'll have to rely on continuing Republican resentment of Carlson for the way he got the nomination all those years ago (remember John Grunseth?) As for the federal stuff, though I've been guilty of it myself, if we want to continue the discussion of the President and such we should probably move it to the general politics board. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Specter Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Sat Jan 11 04:44:20 CST 1997 Message number: 77 Reply to message number: 75 F> Than let him build his own damned stadium. As far as I am concerne F> if he can find a city where the people are stupid enough to pay for one for F> him, let them. They deserve each other. I would rather see us build some n F> schools and better roads. S> I quite agree. Pohlad's rich, and we could use new school stuff... and S> better roads. I agree also, but here's the deal: Pohlad is now offering to put up $85 million of his own cash, and he's willing to offer 49% of the team to the state (estimated at a value of $50 million) if the public can pony up the remaining $200 million for the stadium. As I see it, though, there are many flaws with this offer: 1) Most independent analysts believe the $50 million is a "paper-value" only, and if the state tries to cash in that value, they'll be lucky to get $30 million. 2) The value of the team isn't going to directly reduce the cost of the stadium, so there's actually $250 million, not $200 million left to pay. 3) Projects like this always have overruns, and it seems certain that the state, not Pohlad, would be liable for those added costs. 4) There's no guarantee that baseball owners will approve the sale of even part of a team to the public. To do so would invite government review of the finances of major league baseball, and despite how friendly our government is supposed to be to the rich man, major league owners are terrified of government review. In addition, in yet another denial of reality by the Strib, yesterday's article outlining Pohlad's potential contribution contained a sidebar outlining the private and public contributions of stadiums recently built or under construction. Pacific Bell Park, the wholly-privately financed stadium being built in San Francisco, was not mentioned, giving the impression that all stadiums must have over 50% public finance. I frequently have daydreams where I picket the Minnesota Wins booth in the Crystal Court of the IDS on my lunch break. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Sat Jan 11 05:00:42 CST 1997 Message number: 78 Reply to message number: 74 DR> Speaking of the stadium, I hear that your buddy Senator Novak is embroiled DR> this whole stadium mess. Any idea what's going on there? Novak is DEFINITELY not my buddy! It seems as though everything I have a strong objection to, he agrees to sponsor a bill to support. Usually having to do with giving someone who already has a lot of money a lot more money. Novak says he is willing to sponsor a bill to accept Pohlad's 49% - 51% deal. As far as DFLers, they seem to be lining up pretty much the same as the NSP battle. John Marty has already spoken out in objection to it. The interesting thing is that they may be underestimating the outstate republican legislators. My representative is a republican who almost foams at the mouth at the suggestion that we shuold buy a new stadium. I don't think the Pohlad types can depend too much on him. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Sat Jan 11 05:18:18 CST 1997 Message number: 79 Reply to message number: 76 DT> seeming radical, he is instead going to enter into a partnership with the DT> states and the court system against the Congress to subvert the bill, all DT> while seeming to be it's biggest booster. Don't laugh; the Pres is really DT> that savvy (or at least his wife is; this might be her idea...) DT> I have suspected that this was the plan all along. He is now telling CEOs that they have to figure out how to hire welfare recipients for the reform program to work. They are complaining big time. Of course, he is right -- that is what a lot of us who were opposed to the "reform" bill said in the first place. We thought that if industry would open opportunities to poor people voluntarily, a lot of people would voluntarily find jobs and there would be less of a problem. I am wondering what his next step will be. I have heard that he may suggest tax incentives for companies that hire welfare types. Funny thing about that. Minnesota used to do exactly that through the JTPA program and it worked. Among other things, it helped support the salary of a new hire for a year and gave the company a tax write-off, but the 1980s republicans didn't like the program and it has not been funded. DR> Norm claimed to be a Democrat for many years too, but now his true colors DR> are finally showing. DT> DT> Norm didn't switch because he's a Republican, he switched because he's a DT> mercenary. Rather than trash what will supposedly be "creampuff" Democrati DT> opposition in the primary, he wants to try and trash it in the general He switched because he was rejected by the DFL party. We saw his color a long time ago, and he has not been elected into party offices, asked to give speeches, etc. He may have felt unwelcome there. He was. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Sat Jan 11 05:20:20 CST 1997 Message number: 80 Reply to message number: 77 DT> I frequently have daydreams where I picket the Minnesota Wins booth in the DT> Crystal Court of the IDS on my lunch break. Give me some advance warning and I'll meet you there and help you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Sat Jan 11 12:08:33 CST 1997 Message number: 81 Reply to message number: 76 DT> As for the federal stuff, though I've been guilty of it myself, if we want DT> continue the discussion of the President and such we should probably move i DT> to the general politics board. This is Dissent. We live for topic drift. DT> I dunno. The way it looks right now, the executive appears to be trying to DT> "uphold the spirit of the law" by forbidding states from using their own mo DT> to compensate for the federal cutbacks. In what way are the Feds trying to stop the states from compensating for the Federal cutbacks? I'm not up on all the specifics of the welfare reform laws ... DT> Norm didn't switch because he's a Republican, he switched because he's a DT> mercenary. Rather than trash what will supposedly be "creampuff" Democrati DT> opposition in the primary, he wants to try and trash it in the general DT> election. To do that, he'll have to rely on continuing Republican resentme DT> of Carlson for the way he got the nomination all those years ago (remember DT> John Grunseth?) You know, even in 1993 Norm won with about 55% of the vote. Saint Paul, by most accounts, is 70-80% Democrat. If even one in ten of Norm's supporters leaves him, he's toast ... and I don't see how he can pull it off. I just don't see Saint Paul voting for a Republican mayor, even against a progressive leftie like Sandy Pappas. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Sat Jan 11 12:15:28 CST 1997 Message number: 82 Reply to message number: 77 DT> I frequently have daydreams where I picket the Minnesota Wins booth in the DT> Crystal Court of the IDS on my lunch break. You're just one of those nattering naysayers, you never have anything nice or positive to say do you? Carl Pohlad puts his pants on one leg at a time just like you do, vericose veins and all. He's just trying to do what's best form the state, can't you see that? [shudder] Sorry about that, must have been something I ate. DT> In addition, in yet another denial of reality by the Strib, yesterday's DT> article outlining Pohlad's potential contribution contained a sidebar DT> outlining the private and public contributions of stadiums recently built o DT> under construction. Pacific Bell Park, the wholly-privately financed stadi DT> being built in San Francisco, was not mentioned, giving the impression that DT> all stadiums must have over 50% public finance. Really? I saw the Strib list 4 stadiums up front, in graph form, and one of them was the Pac Bell park in San Francisco. They listed it as 95% privately financed, which seems like a reasonable estimate given site prep and other related expenses ... in other words, even a wholly privately funded ballpark has public expenses. But in general, the coverage and spihn on this issue is just a fucking riot. It's worth reading the paper each day just to see how they're trying to screw us over This Week. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Froggy Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Sat Jan 11 12:20:45 CST 1997 Message number: 83 Reply to message number: 78 F> Novak is DEFINITELY not my buddy! Aww, admit it. You're as big a fan of Novak as I am of Luther, the U.S. Representative with a heart of mush. F> legislators. My representative is a republican who almost foams at the mout F> at the suggestion that we shuold buy a new stadium. I don't think the Pohlad F> types can depend too much on him. What I fear is that these foaming Republicans will be brought in line and agree to vote for a metyro-wide sales tax or something, perhaps in exchange for slot-machine gambling in the local bars or something. And that's what's so terrible about this stadium business, not just the stadium itself but all the otyher shit that will be thrown in the bill on order to sell it ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Sun Jan 12 17:50:47 CST 1997 Message number: 84 Reply to message number: 81 DT> I dunno. The way it looks right now, the executive appears to be trying to DT> "uphold the spirit of the law" by forbidding states from using their own mo DT> to compensate for the federal cutbacks. DR> In what way are the Feds trying to stop the states from compensating for t DR> Federal cutbacks? I'm not up on all the specifics of the welfare reform law You caught me at a bad time, Daedalus, I don't have my plethora of useless knowledge readily at my disposal. All I can say for certain is that there was a press conference (either Janet Reno or someone else in Justice) who said point-blank that the Administration would prosecute any state who tried to compensate for the federal cuts in welfare as a violation of the "block grant" law. In a way it's pretty humorous; the federal government suing it's states over legislation that it passes over those state's objections. First California and Arizona, and now this... DR> You know, even in 1993 Norm won with about 55% of the vote. Saint Paul, by DR> most accounts, is 70-80% Democrat. If even one in ten of Norm's supporters DR> leaves him, he's toast ... and I don't see how he can pull it off. Metropolitan Mpls and St. Paul are overwhelmingly Democratic--in 1984, the only two Minnesota counties that Walter Mondale carried were Hennepin and Ramsay, but he won by so huge a margin that they were enough to carry the state. I agree with you that Coleman can't pull if off, and so do a lot of other political pundits. I only hope the Strib doesn't offer him his old job back after he loses... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Sun Jan 12 17:56:54 CST 1997 Message number: 85 Reply to message number: 82 DR> You're just one of those nattering naysayers, you never have anything nice DR> positive to say do you? DR> DR> Carl Pohlad puts his pants on one leg at a time just like you do, vericose DR> veins and all. He's just trying to do what's best form the state, can't you DR> see that? DR> DR> [shudder] DR> DR> Sorry about that, must have been something I ate. You scared me there for a moment, Daedalus. Stay away from the Hormel products for a few days, OK? DR> Really? I saw the Strib list 4 stadiums up front, in graph form, and one o DR> them was the Pac Bell park in San Francisco. If it was there, I missed it. I saw five pie charts, none of which was for Pac Bell Park. Maybe they added it in a later edition (or subtracted it from an earlier edition), or maybe I'm just blind. DR> seems like a reasonable estimate given site prep and other DR> related expenses ... in other words, even a wholly privately funded ballpar DR> has public expenses. Even a wholly private construction project can qualify for some state and federal cash for assistance: the Americans with Disabilities Act is just one example of a law that allows for compensation if a corporation complies with its dictates. To my mind, though, if any public cash goes to this park, it better go for a Twins Hall of Fame or something else that the public can appreciate, not just some fancy Diamond-Vision screen that you can't read the letters on half the time because somebody is trying to use some exotic font. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Mon Jan 13 04:07:00 CST 1997 Message number: 86 Reply to message number: 84 DR> In what way are the Feds trying to stop the states from compensating for t DR> Federal cutbacks? I'm not up on all the specifics of the welfare reform law DT> DT> knowledge readily at my disposal. All I can say for certain is that there DT> a press conference (either Janet Reno or someone else in Justice) who said DT> point-blank that the Administration would prosecute any state who tried to DT> compensate for the federal cuts in welfare as a violation of the "block gra DT> law. DT> It may be a "turf" war. For example, the food stamps program is administered under the federal Department of Agriculture. It is probably illegal to try to add money to it to restore cuts. However, it may be OK to build separate state programs that "supplememt" the federal program, but are not included as part of the federal program. Of course, applicants would have to fill out both sets of forms, provide duplicate documentation. Welfare would have twice as mucn checking and administering as before. So much for saving taxpayer's money. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Mon Jan 13 12:40:42 CST 1997 Message number: 87 Reply to message number: 84 DT> I agree with you that Coleman can't pull if off, and so do a lot of other DT> political pundits. I only hope the Strib doesn't offer him his old job bac DT> after he loses... There's rumors he might try for Vento's seat in the 4th congressional, district, but I don't know ... I think the guy has higher ambitions than that. I just don't see the Republicans embracing him for governor in 1998, it's just too soon - and running against Grams in 2000 would pit him against an established Republican cantidate. All the way around, I just can't figure out what Coleman is planning here. None of it makes sense. So, does that mean the next mayor is going to be Sandy Pappas or is there any other competittion out there (besides the recently blacklisted Dave Thune). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Mon Jan 13 12:42:38 CST 1997 Message number: 88 Reply to message number: 85 DR> Sorry about that, must have been something I ate. DT> DT> You scared me there for a moment, Daedalus. Stay away from the Hormel DT> products for a few days, OK? DT> It wasn't Hormel, Hormel is evil. Must have been an overdose of Mountain Dew. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARING DIANE J. To: Froggy Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Wed Jan 15 09:53:21 CST 1997 Message number: 89 Reply to message number: 78 I despise Novak. I am not surprised he wants to oppress Minnesotans again by supporting the Twins Stadium. If I had my way, he'd be out of the Legislature and made to work honestly for a living. Too bad he's not my elected representative; I have no voting power over that destructive idiot. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARING DIANE J. To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Wed Jan 15 09:57:20 CST 1997 Message number: 90 Reply to message number: 83 My rep from White Bear Lake spoke with me by phone today and said he is against the public funding of the stadium but fears it will be attached to a bill to fund education. He's a schoolteacher who supports education. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Daring Diane J. Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Wed Jan 15 18:04:31 CST 1997 Message number: 91 Reply to message number: 90 DD> My rep from White Bear Lake spoke with me by phone today and said he is DD> against the public funding of the stadium but fears it will be attached to DD> bill to fund education. He's a schoolteacher who supports education. Here locally, I'm kind of worried that my Rep and Senator might be talked into voting for the stadium ... both are probably ready to retire after their current terms (which may or may not be common knowledge). The one, Milbert, is big on youth sports and might cave in if they promised to promote that cause ... the other, Metzen, might also be talked into voting for a stadium bill for reasons I'd rather not speculate on in public. Both are chairs of the Government Operations and Veterans Affairs committees ... does anyone know what committees the stadium bill would likely have to go through? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daring Diane J. Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Thu Jan 16 07:26:02 CST 1997 Message number: 92 Reply to message number: 90 DD> My rep from White Bear Lake spoke with me by phone today and said he is DD> against the public funding of the stadium but fears it will be attached to DD> bill to fund education. He's a schoolteacher who supports education. I wonder why he thinks so. Has he heard rumors? On this morning's news, they were saying that they intended to attach another cigarette tax to pay for a stadium. As much as I dislike cigarettes, I think this is a scam. Seems like a take to get people thinking that the stadium isn't such a bad idea after all, as long as THOSE things pay for it. Then when the shortfall appears, all of a sudden the taxpayers have to swallow it or live with a half-completed white elephant. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARING DIANE J. To: Froggy Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Wed Jan 22 08:57:24 CST 1997 Message number: 93 Reply to message number: 92 From the way my rep sounded, I think he had heard something about linking the stadium to an education bill. I wonder what it would take to get a law here in Minn. which forbids such linking? A murder? A mass suicide of "decent" folk? God speaking from the whirlwind above the Target Center and the Metrodome denouncing naughty politicians before those structures were razed by tornados? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daring Diane J. Subject: Re: The new stadium Date: Thu Jan 23 00:29:21 CST 1997 Message number: 94 Reply to message number: 93 DD> stadium to an education bill. I wonder what it would take to get a law her DD> in Minn. which forbids such linking? A murder? A mass suicide of "decent" Line item veto and an intelligent governor. :} ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: All Subject: Committee affairs Date: Thu Jan 30 06:03:46 CST 1997 Message number: 95 Reply to message number: unavailable The Education Committee is taking up the issue of sick school buildings, because several have been closed, and a lot of kids and teachers have been getting sick in them. They have announced a public meeting on Feb 13 and asked people who have had experience with this to come and testify. I hope to try to get there. I have had problems in schools, but I also want to make the point that once a kid has been injured like this in a school, he doesn't always recover. Some stay asthmatic for life. Others become very sensitive to other things like perfume, cigarette smoke, etc., and also cannot tolerate environments other than schools. If anyone is interested in this, I hope to see you there. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Froggy Subject: Re: Committee affairs Date: Thu Jan 30 09:11:55 CST 1997 Message number: 96 Reply to message number: 95 F> The Education Committee is taking up the issue of sick school F> buildings, because several have been closed, and a lot of kids and teachers F> have been getting sick in them. They have announced a public meeting on Feb F> 13 and asked people who have had experience with this to come and testify. I I don't think I can attend this, however can you fill us in on this after you go? I've just read a little about "Sick Buildings" at the EPA's web site, it's pretty good.. What districts do they mention? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: Committee affairs Date: Thu Jan 30 13:00:49 CST 1997 Message number: 97 Reply to message number: 96 F> The Education Committee is taking up the issue of sick school TI> I don't think I can attend this, however can you fill us in on this aft TI> you go? I've just read a little about "Sick Buildings" at the EPA's web sit TI> it's pretty good.. What districts do they mention? Today they were focusing on the special report on this done by Channel 5 news in November. They studied this issue for 6 months before they televised the special. Among the bad schools they mentioned, and a few that I know are: Anoka-Hennepin Commutity College, an Elementary school in Coon Rapids, an Elementary School in Blaine, Andover Elementary School, an Elementary school in South Minneapolis, North Branch Junior High(the poured the new plastic gym floor while school was in session. Several teachers and students got sick. Shool was dismissed at noon). I am sure that there will be others broght up at that February 13 meeting. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Committee affairs Date: Thu Jan 30 14:25:17 CST 1997 Message number: 98 Reply to message number: 97 F> be others broght up at that February 13 meeting. Where and at what time? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Committee affairs Date: Fri Jan 31 00:48:06 CST 1997 Message number: 99 Reply to message number: 98 F> be others broght up at that February 13 meeting. S> S> Where and at what time? I don't know for sure. Since it is a legislative committee, it will be somewhere in the capitol complex. Committee meetings are usually, but not always, before 3:00. You can call the House Index to check. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Committee affairs Date: Mon Feb 03 14:16:37 CST 1997 Message number: 100 Reply to message number: 99 F> I don't know for sure. Since it is a legislative committee, it wil F> be somewhere in the capitol complex. Committee meetings are usually, but no F> always, before 3:00. You can call the House Index to check. k, thanks, I'll check on that. If it's before 3:00, I won't be able to make it, school of course. School- and that's what that meeting is about, perhaps a secret plot to keep students from learning about the safety or lack there of of their schools... I think so. Anyway, thanks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Committee affairs Date: Mon Feb 03 15:57:51 CST 1997 Message number: 101 Reply to message number: 100 S> it, school of course. School- and that's what that meeting is about, perhap S> a secret plot to keep students from learning about the safety or lack there S> of their schools... I think so. S> No, I doubt it. It is just that the legislators have to work during the day too. Although, many of them also work until late at night and even stay in St. Paul all night. Maybe you can get permission from the school to attend. Especially if you can replace science or civics classes with it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Committee affairs Date: Tue Feb 04 15:39:29 CST 1997 Message number: 102 Reply to message number: 101 F> No, I doubt it. It is just that the legislators have to work durin F> the day too. Although, many of them also work until late at night and even F> stay in St. Paul all night. Maybe you can get permission from the school to F> attend. Especially if you can replace science or civics classes with it. Sorry, I know, just feeling a bit sarcastic (I haven't had my daily improv high in a while) I'd have to see, but I do know that at 3:00 I'd have physics which I might be able to miss, or actually more likely, play auditions which I cannot miss. I'll see if I can get out in any case, it'll probably be difficult. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARING DIANE J. To: All Subject: Anti-nuke rally Date: Fri Feb 07 16:57:29 CST 1997 Message number: 103 Reply to message number: unavailable Folks in sourthern Minnesota have organized a rally about the Prairie Island issue of nuclear waste casks. It will be on Tuesday, Feb. 25, at noon in the Capitol rotunda. It is an event to dramatize opposition to nuclear waste being stored in the middle of the Mississippi, not to mention just a few blocks next to the Prairie Island Indian community. NSP wants to load more casks and to stop the search for an alternate storage site. Minnesotans are asked to contact their state legislators to support the Tribe's right to not be forced to live in a nuclear waste neighborhood and to deny NSP the permission to load more casks. Participants at the rally are needed, especially volunteer actors to perform in a skit about sweeping nuclear waste under the rug. If you have ideas to share or want more information, let me know here, or, call Marie at Clean Water Action (in Minneapolis) at 623-3666. If you wish to distribute flyers about the event, let me know. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARING DIANE J. To: All Subject: Advocacy for Welfare Funding Date: Fri Feb 07 17:25:29 CST 1997 Message number: 104 Reply to message number: unavailable On Monday night, Feb. 17, there will be a rally to support humane welfare funding at the Capitol. It is scheduled from 6:30 to 7:30 and is sponsored by the Joint Religious Legislative Coalition. Their number is 870-3670. Our Quaker group has joined the Coalition and we are getting our membership to call and/or write their legislators expressing concern to allocate adequate funds to our needy neighbors. The federal government has cut back on food stamps and has destroyed the AFDC program. It's up to our senators and representatives on the state level to figure out how to spend the federal block grant and any other state money so poor Minnesotans aren't starved and ground into shocking deprivation. They need to know that voters think this is a priority. Why, from a selfish security standpoint alone, I can argue that we need to have a good safety net for poor people. Otherwise, they'll be desperate-- they will turn to crime and threaten my sweet suburban safety in a far bigger way than anything that exists now. I used this in a letter to my legislator. In another letter, I said that emergency room use by poor people would go up if we didn't have good welfare funding. When that happens, county taxes go up to pay for the increased use of emergency rooms by people who cannot pay. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daring Diane J. Subject: Re: Anti-nuke rally Date: Sat Feb 08 01:19:28 CST 1997 Message number: 105 Reply to message number: 103 DD> casks and to stop the search for an alternate storage site. Minnesotans ar DD> asked to contact their state legislators to support the Tribe's right to no DD> be forced to live in a nuclear waste neighborhood and to deny NSP the Speaking of tribes. The Mil Lacs band just WON their hunting and fishing rights claim. Is the tribe looking into whether their treaties can protect them from this? . . . as long as the rivers run . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DARING DIANE J. To: Froggy Subject: Tribes Date: Sun Feb 09 12:37:31 CST 1997 Message number: 106 Reply to message number: 104 The white male supremist tribe, led by Bud Grant, will journey to the Supreme Court to fight the Indians about their right to fish. Racism is quite a bad fire in the belly. The Prairie Island tribe--I don't know if they have a treaty on paper or not. I suspect not, otherwise their lawyer would have used it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Taxasota Date: Sun Feb 09 16:44:11 CST 1997 Message number: 107 Reply to message number: unavailable From hare@freenet.msp.mn.us Sat Feb 8 17:44:43 1997 Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 15:31:36 -0600 (CST) From: Erik Hare To: minnesota politics list Subject: Taxes and Gross State Product Here's something to get y'all going (not that you need it): There is some really good data available from the census bureau on real state and local expenditures for 1993. It's at: http://www.census.gov/ftp/pub/govs/www/esti93.html Since it's getting a bit old, it's been revised to the point that it's pretty hard stuff. It's neat data because for each state it breaks out spending by state and local governemnts, but also lists them combined. This is important, because in Minnesota we use a lot of other taxes to write down property taxes. I then looked up Gross State products for the same year from another census page (I lost he exact URL, but it's easily available from altavista). I get the following conclusions about Minnesota: The total of taxes, state and local is a mere 9.6% of GSP. This is all property, sales, income, and gas tax. There is a further input of 2.9% of GSP from the Feds, and 7.2% of GSP in the form of utility fees, hospital bills, school luch recipts, and insurance payments for a total state and local government of 21.8% of GSP. This is based on a GSP of 117B$, or about $25,618 per person. How does this compare with other states? Well, Wisconsin has a GSP of only 114B$ in the same year, with combined state and local taxes of 11.2%. They got 3.1% of GSP from the Feds, and the total government was 23.4% of GSP. Yow! The average is 9.4% from taxes, 3.1% from the Feds, and a total of 20.1%. Minnesota is just a wee bit above average in taxes, and about 8.4% above average total government. At the other end of the Mississippi, Louisiana takes a mere 9.0% in taxes, gets 5.7% from the feds, and has a total government quite a bit higher at 24.1% of GSP. What does this mean, all in all? (at least, in 1993) State GSP/person tax rate taxes/person what's left MN $25,618 9.6% $2,459 $23,158 WI $21,923 11.2% $2,455 $19,468 LA $18,694 9.0% $1,682 $17,011 Average $24,270 9.4% $2,281 $21,989 What this means is that, if you look at it in terms of the size of government relative to the economy, we're pretty darned average. The state that Arne Carlson wants us to emulate so badly is really sucking wind on that score. And if you take a 'low tax' state and look at that, you'll generally see a lower GSP and the part left after state and local taxes is still smaller. I'd say that we're getting our money's worth. Given that so much of our government goes into education, it probably shows up in this data as a good investment in GSP growth. The numbers show; we're wealthier, even after taxes, than the examples I've found. Why is this? Well, when you're spending 43.6% of that same tax revenue on education, you must consider that an investment in the future of the state. Does it pay off? I think the numbers show that it is. What I need to do is to get the data from all the states. I'll work on that m'self later. If you want to refute me, you can look through all 50 states yourself and find somthing -- I gave the URL. It just seems a bit time consuming for me right now. Flames should be directed to: hare@freenet.msp.mn.us (Erik Hare) And have a nice day! ------------------------- To unsubscribe from mn-politics send a message to majordomo@mr.net The content of the message should read: unsubscribe mn-politics ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daring Diane J. Subject: Re: Tribes Date: Sun Feb 09 23:54:56 CST 1997 Message number: 108 Reply to message number: 106 DD> The white male supremist tribe, led by Bud Grant, will journey to the Supre DD> Court to fight the Indians about their right to fish. Racism is quite a ba DD> fire in the belly. DD> Yes, but this is amusing because it is more telling than racism. It is childish selfishness is its purest form. BG and company want ALL the fish for themselves and do not want anyone else to have any at all. Even though they have been shown the records of fingerlings that the natives stock these lakes with in the first place. If BG wins an appeal and the natives just walk away from their hatchery and husbandry program and discontinue their current voluntary stocking, there will be a LOT fewer fish for BG and the boys. DD> The Prairie Island tribe--I don't know if they have a treaty on paper or no DD> I suspect not, otherwise their lawyer would have used it. Seems like environmental racism should play a role. But they wouldn't have known about it to write it into the original treaty. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Taxasota Date: Mon Feb 10 00:04:01 CST 1997 Message number: 109 Reply to message number: 107 DR> What this means is that, if you look at it in terms of the size of DR> government relative to the economy, we're pretty darned average. The DR> state that Arne Carlson wants us to emulate so badly is really sucking DR> wind on that score. And if you take a 'low tax' state and look at that, DR> you'll generally see a lower GSP and the part left after state and local DR> taxes is still smaller. DR> DR> I'd say that we're getting our money's worth. Given that so much of our DR> government goes into education, it probably shows up in this data as a I have always thought this, butnow you have produced the numbers to prove it. I have lived in a lot of other states, and finally ended up here, partly because Minnesota buys things I consider important. For example, when I lived in Miami, there were very few playgrounds for children. They were unable to get a municipal bond passed to expand the sewage treatment plant upgraded and were releasing raw sewage into Biscayne Bay. Other states also spent less money on education and environment than Minnesota. Yet it doesn't seem to me that the tax burden is worse here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Froggy Subject: Re: Tribes Date: Mon Feb 10 09:48:12 CST 1997 Message number: 110 Reply to message number: 108 DD> The white male supremist tribe, led by Bud Grant, will journey to the Supre DD> Court to fight the Indians about their right to fish. Racism is quite a ba DD> fire in the belly. DD> F> Yes, but this is amusing because it is more telling than racism. I F> is childish selfishness is its purest form. I don't know about that, I don't think that all of those anti-treay people are really all that racist or greedy. I think that many, if not most, are just wanting the regulations which they chafe under applied to everyone ... and it probably bugs the hell out of them that anyone would get "special privileges" of any sort, much less the right to shine deer and spear walleye. These kind of images are inflamatory folr them, and stoke the old stereotypers and appeal to the worst in people. In some ways, I can sympathize. I wouldn't want to see the Freemen live under their own laws, and neither do I want to see the native americans do the same. No matter the past, I feel this is one country under the law - and all people should be treated the same, no matter where they happen to be. But I also understand that the native americans *are* different, and try to accomodate that ... but that doesn't mean that I'm not sympathetic to the other side. Not all of them are racist, some are just strong proponents of the principles which make america worth living in, such as equality under the law. There may be some other, less savory, stuff mixed in there but not all of their message is so wrongheaded. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Froggy Subject: Re: Taxasota Date: Mon Feb 10 09:55:14 CST 1997 Message number: 111 Reply to message number: 109 DR> What this means is that, if you look at it in terms of the size of DR> government relative to the economy, we're pretty darned average. The F> I have always thought this, butnow you have produced the numbers to F> prove it. I have lived in a lot of other states, and finally ended up here, Essentially, Erik Hare was saying that while we may have higher income taxes per person in MInnesota, our total tax burden is very average when compared against the size of the state economy ... and our people are still more prosperous after taxes, as our incomes are higher to begin with. We have a reputation for being a high-tax state mainly because our taxes are more obvious (income taxes, etc), and because compared to a state like Wisconsin our government *is* bigger on a per-person basis ... but then again, our economy is bigger and better too. This wasn't as much directed to you, just everyone in general .... sort of condensing what he said, and clearing some of it up after bouncing a few messages back and forth with him. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Tribes Date: Mon Feb 10 13:03:36 CST 1997 Message number: 112 Reply to message number: 110 DR> are really all that racist or greedy. I think that many, if not most, are j DR> wanting the regulations which they chafe under applied to everyone ... and DR> may be some other, less savory, stuff mixed in there but not all of their DR> message is so wrongheaded. Yes, it is wrongheaded, and no, the regulations should NOT be applied equally. Many native bands, including the Mil Lacs band NEVER conceded the right to control all hunting and fishing to white men. To have done so would have been suicide and they knew it. It was originally THEIR country, THEIR deer, and THEIR fish. They did us a favor and allowed our ancestors to also use them. Now, all of a sudden, white people are acting like the game belongs to them and only they have a right to decide how to use it. In addition, the majority of what the Mil Lacs band has asked and been given is on the reservation itself, and therefore, no business of the state of Minnesota, or even the federal government, at all. Do you also think that the US game officials should order Mexico and Canada how to manage their wildlife? official ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Froggy Subject: Re: Tribes Date: Mon Feb 10 16:41:45 CST 1997 Message number: 113 Reply to message number: 112 F> Yes, it is wrongheaded, and no, the regulations should NOT be appli F> equally. Many native bands, including the Mil Lacs band NEVER conceded the F> right to control all hunting and fishing to white men. True, but neither did I sign a contract with the government. Yet, I am still bound by its laws, must pay its taxes, benefit from its accomplishments and suffer from its mistakes. After a point, it becomes an unwritten contract, a daily affirmation and daily agreement ... I use the government's roads, live under the protection of its civil authorities and military, and vote to ensure that my interests are served. Similarly, many native americans have passively and actively become involved in our system. After a point, no matter whether they actually gave up their land and rights, they do as the rest of us do - become part of our system. Yes, their land was taken. Yes, many were killed. But it's all relative ... tens of thousands of Africans were abducted and sold into slavery, their land taken from them by transplanting them 5,000 miles away ... the Spanish usurpers down South of us, some of whom comingled with the native populations, had their land taken from them by the U.S. government through various wars ... when the revolutionary army got rid of the Brittish, we tok the land of the Brittish loyalists and gave it to revolutionary soldiers ... there is no black and white here, and I don't think that the treatment the native americans received was substantially different from that which other persecuted minorities had to deal with. For many reasons, I am increasingly skeptical of the dual nature of the native american lands and state governments. Though a few are getting wealthy off of the casinos, most native americans stil live in extreme poverty ... it's seperate but equal again in some ways, and again the non-caucasian population is getting the short end of the stick. I don't believe in Farakkhan (sp?) and his sepratist drives, and in some ways I see a paralell here between that and the segregated tribal lands. That's not to say that I want to see tribal lands abolished and passed onto the state, only that I don't see these reservations as a wholly positive thing. Despite their understandable desire for self-government, there are a hell of a lot of negatives here too, and I've only touched on a few of them. So yes, I do understand why some people feel resentful about the tribal members having "special priveleges". In a lot of ways, I think that we need to stand together, live under the same laws and rules, and work together to ensure that everyone has an opportunity to thrive. When we seperate ourselves ... be it through class distinctions, laws or race, we're just that much weaker for it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Calendar Date: Fri Mar 21 15:40:15 CST 1997 Message number: 114 Reply to message number: unavailable Here's the latest progressive calendar, with Noam Chomsky dates at the end ... I'll be at the "Legacy of War" one at Hamline, for sure. From shove001@maroon.tc.umn.edu Fri Mar 21 07:29:03 1997 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 04:41:10 -0600 (CST) From: David Shove To: MN-Politics Subject: Progressive Calendar/mnp version Calendar thru March, & Chomsky in MN update... P R O G R E S S I V E C A L E N D A R March S_ M_ T_ W_ Th F_ S_ 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 21 St Martins Table: Friday night live - Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer reads & signs from "School of the Assassins." 7:30pm. 2001 Riverside Av Mpls. 21 Immigrant & Refugee Battered Women's Forum: Exclusion, deportation & political asylum. Paula Dutoy (Centro Legal atty). [time? place?] FFI 780-2332. 21-22 Citizens for a Better Environment et al: Restoring our urban waters conference. Workshops. Ann Riley (Coalition to Restore Urban Waters), Tom Schueler (Center for Watershed Protection), local experts & groups. Lunch & refreshments. Friday 8:30am-5pm Urban watershed restoration technical session; 5-7:30pm Reception. Science Museum of MN 10th & Wabasha StP. Saturday 8:30am-4:30pm Urban watershed restoration primer. Bush Student Center, Hamline U 1536 Hewitt Av StP. $20 for citizens, $50 for professionals. FFI 824-8637. 22 RCTA: US & Latin American militaries in the global economy - the strategy behind US training of LatAm soldiers. Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer (_School of the Assassins_). 10:30am. 317 17 Av SE Mpls. FFI 627-9445. 22 REV105/TC Reader protest meeting. 1-4pm. UofM westbank. [This is all your editor has heard...] 22 DFL ward conventions. Wards 3, 6, 9. 23 Minnesota Atheists/Humanists: Fourth Sunday breakfast. 9-11am. Old Country Buffet 6540 University Av NE (& Mississippi St) Fridley. FFI Marie Castle 588-7031. 23 Pax Christi: Oscar Romero & the right to food - service & soup supper followed by video "Romero." 4:30pm. Newman Center 1701 University Av St Mpls. FFI 698-1493. 24 Minnesota Atheists/Humanists: Happy hour - free food. 5-7pm. Scully's Bar, Comfort Inn 1321 E 78 St, I-494 on S frontage road between 12 Av & Cedar Bloomington. FFI Marie Castle 588-7031. 25 Statewide rally for Welfare Rights. 12noon. Capitol Bldg StP. FFI 822-8020 info/transportation. 25 Internet 2000 - Consumer protection & you. 6:15-8:30pm. Arlington Senior High School 1495 Rice St StP. FFI 224-4503. 25 PCM et al: Proportional Representation study circle. Tony Solgard facilitator. Meeting 2 of 4. 7-9pm. Arise bookstore 2441 Lyndale Av St Mpls. FFI shove001@maroon.tc.umn.edu or 636-5672. 26 People of Faith Peacemakers: Needed - a revitalized UN. Joseph Schwartzberg (MN World Federalists Assn pres). 8am[?]. St Martins Table 2001 Riverside Av Mpls. FFI 698-2812. 27 TC Unitarian Universalist Metro Stability Task Force: Study group on cities & suburbs - creating common ground. Meeting 2 of 4. 7:30pm. First Universalist Church 3400 Dupont Av S Mpls. FFI 381-0310. 29 RCTA: The other side of Mexico - NAFTA & food production, Mexico/US economic crisis, $5.60 avg daily wage. Karen Lehman. 10:30am. 317 17 Av SE Mpls. FFI 627-9445. ----- special feature, updated P R O G R E S S I V E C A L E N D A R C H O M S K Y I N M I N N E S O T A (as of 3.20) April S_ M_ T_ W_ Th F_ S_ 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 13 RCTA: NOAM CHOMSKY. Reception. 1:30pm. [place?] FFI 627-9445. 13 Hamline U: NOAM CHOMSKY on "The Legacy of War." 7pm. Simley Theatre, Hamline U StP. FFI 641-2316. 14 College of St Catherine: NOAM CHOMSKY. "The responsibility of intellectuals in a democratic society." 2pm. Jeanne D'Arc Auditorium. Randolph between Snelling & Fairview, StP. 14 College of St Catherine: "Manufacturing Consent: NOAM CHOMSKY and the Media" film. 7pm. Jeanne D'Arc Auditorium. Randolph between Snelling & Fairview, StP. 14 Hamline U: NOAM CHOMSKY on his linguistics research. 8pm. Sundin Music Hall, Hamline U StP. 15 UofM: NOAM CHOMSKY. 12:20pm. Great Hall of Coffman Union eastbank Mpls. [This *is* the earlier listed UofM event RESEHEDULED] 15 -St Peter MN- Gustavus: NOAM CHOMSKY. Speech & reception. Christ Chapel. 7:30pm. FFI 440-5250. --- Calendar courtesy of the Progressive Community of Minnesota. --- -Several items from WAMM Newsletter, RCTA, MAPA Currents.- --- E-mail your progressive event to shove001@maroon.tc.umn.edu --- ----------------------------------end--------------------------------- -- - David Shove shove001@maroon.tc.umn.edu (612) 636-5672 Progressive Community of Minnesota ------------------------- To unsubscribe from mn-politics send a message to majordomo@mr.net The content of the message should read: unsubscribe mn-politics ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: ALL Subject: GOP Plans for education Date: Wed May 14 21:02:22 CDT 1997 Message number: 115 Reply to message number: unavailable In 1996 Governor Carlson(?) was hoping, IMO, was hoping that Bob Dole would become president and that he would be appointed the last Sec of Education. To boost his resume he pushed for a voucher plan. After Dole lost he eventually dropped the voucher plan and has opted for a education tax deduction for parents. I would prefer this plan over the voucher scheme because vouchers could end up violating the separation of church & State & deny the taxpayers any say over how their cash is spent on education. I wonder where the money will come from for these tax deduction/credits. Will education be cut? Will taxes be raised on those without children? What about poor person on welfare? Will they have access to credits or will they get vouchers? Something stinks about this plan. ... Instead of being "born again," why not just grow up? ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Sandman Subject: Re: GOP Plans for education Date: Fri May 16 11:48:27 CDT 1997 Message number: 116 Reply to message number: 115 S> Will education be cut? Will taxes be raised on those without children? Yes, and as I wrote in an article for my school newspaper, that'll shoot everything all to hell. Well, not quite in those words... After they cut education, those poor many who still can't afford to go to some privat school will end up in a poorly funded school because most of the money went away to some school that was well to do before the tax credit plan. Those left in poorly funded schools will only see their schools get worse. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Sandman Subject: Re: GOP Plans for education Date: Sun May 18 18:08:29 CDT 1997 Message number: 117 Reply to message number: 115 S> I would prefer this plan over the voucher scheme because vouchers could S> end up violating the separation of church & State & deny the taxpayers S> any say over how their cash is spent on education. I think that both are full of shit. The motivation behind these tax credits is to open the floodgates to more private/public education mixing. Any wonder why Carlson is going balls to the wall over this one? He knows that it's not the money involved, it's the principle of the thing. Once the precedent is set, it can be more fully funded. S> Something stinks about this plan. Everything stinks about this plan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: SPECTER Subject: Re: GOP Plans for educati Date: Sun May 18 20:11:44 CDT 1997 Message number: 118 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Specter to Sandman <=- S> Will education be cut? Will taxes be raised on those without children? Sp> Yes, and as I wrote in an article for my school newspaper, that'll Sp> shoot everything all to hell. Well, not quite in those words... After Sp> they cut education, those poor many who still can't afford to go to Sp> some privat school will end up in a poorly funded school because most Sp> of the money went away to some school that was well to do before the Sp> tax credit plan. Those left in poorly funded schools will only see Sp> their schools get worse. Or even worse those students from poor families will be placed in religious oriented schools to be converted to a religion which republicans feel would be beneficial to them (republicans, not poor students. ... Christ died for our sins, so let's not disappoint Him. ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Sandman Subject: Re: GOP Plans for educati Date: Thu May 22 18:56:02 CDT 1997 Message number: 119 Reply to message number: 118 S> Or even worse those students from poor families will be placed in S> religious oriented schools to be converted to a religion which S> republicans feel would be beneficial to them (republicans, not poor S> students. True though I prefer to leave the religious aspect out, as not all private schools are religious, and Carlson has this grand idea of somehow having new start-up schools being created by capitalists dedicated to making money and creating great schools at the same time. BTW: to everyone and anyone: I wrote an article on this for my school paper, yes opinion article that is, saying pretty much what I said in my previous post. Anyway I got a response today from a girl who graduated from a private school, somehow she got a hold of my article and wrote a letter to the editor about it, about how stupid I was, and how great the competition will make our schools and how money doesn't matter in making schools good, it's teachers and students. To which I reply, (though not to her, I can't respond to letters to the editor) that if money wasn't important in making good schools, then there would be no need to compete for it because the best schools could still be the ones with the least money. Two, if competition is so great, and teachers make the schools good, then public schools should win here too, as public schools are willing to pay teachers some 30% more, so they would naturally hire the best teachers, score on more for public education. And to my final point, I'll type both my article and her response (very badly written, she lacks basic grammar, score two for public schools) here if anyone wants to see the opposition, and myself. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Specter Subject: Re: GOP Plans for educati Date: Fri May 23 10:41:48 CDT 1997 Message number: 120 Reply to message number: 119 S> point, I'll type both my article and her response (very badly written, she S> lacks basic grammar, score two for public schools) here if anyone wants to s S> the opposition, and myself. Sure, let's take a look at it ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: GOP Plans for educati Date: Tue May 27 10:47:46 CDT 1997 Message number: 121 Reply to message number: 120 DR> Sure, let's take a look at it ... k, I'll try to find it. So far I've managed to lose my copy of her letter, and I have to wait until our school newspaper gets back from the printers. That'll be Thursday. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: SPECTER Subject: Re: GOP Plans for educati Date: Tue May 27 19:37:52 CDT 1997 Message number: 122 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Specter to Sandman <=- S> Or even worse those students from poor families will be placed in S> religious oriented schools to be converted to a religion which S> republicans feel would be beneficial to them (republicans, not poor S> students. Sp> True though I prefer to leave the religious aspect out, as not all Sp> private schools are religious, and Carlson has this grand idea of Sp> somehow having new start-up schools being created by capitalists Sp> dedicated to making money and creating great schools at the same time. Several years ago on PBS there was a program on education and its future. The program looked at public education, private education, and the non-existant capitalist education system. The main point that I came away with from the program was that the only education system that lacked a clear narrow agenda was the public school system. Private religious schools had the agenda of converting children to "whatever" specific religious dogma was desired. The capitalist school system had the agenda of instilling capitalist dogma on the children. Note: The man interviewed for this was not an educator but a wealthy cpaitalist and his "ideas" for education was not based on turning everybody into fellow capitalists, but revolved around making the individual person accept their place as a cog in the gears of capitalism and liking it. The publics schools in this report lacked any clear agenda other than the education of the children. There were no political or religious agenda that were shown in this report. I believe that we are served far better with public schools that lack political or religious or even economic agendas. Carlsons plan and the republicans overall agenda seem to favor replacing public "agenda-less" schools with schools that will favor agendas that would promote the conservative cause. Not good IMHO. BTW: I cannot recall the exact name of the PBS program but I recall that it was hosted by Louis Rukeyser & may have been related to his Wall $treet Week PBS program. ... Deja Mooo.... knowing you've heard this bull before... ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BADLANDS To: All Subject: .. Date: Mon Jun 02 22:07:49 CDT 1997 Message number: 123 Reply to message number: unavailable What does everyone think about the proposal to use money from Native American reservations to help fund the stadium? I myself think that it's so unfair as to wonder why people don't admit they're as racist as they are. hmm... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Sandman Subject: Re: GOP Plans for educati Date: Tue Jun 10 08:14:00 CDT 1997 Message number: 124 Reply to message number: 122 S> Several years ago on PBS there was a program on education and its S> future. The program looked at public education, private education, S> and the non-existant capitalist education system. S> S> The main point that I came away with from the program was that the S> only education system that lacked a clear narrow agenda was the S> public school system. That's a good point, very true that most religious schools are as interested in turning children to their religion as educating them. Let me say in their defense (devil's advocate...(an interesting pun)) that I think they concentrate in that aspect more on specific moral causes than specific religious causes, though the two intertwine so much that it's more or less the same. Actually I find the whole moralizing of these schools to be their worst feature, but anyways. And I agree about the capitalist schools, except I felt the same influence towards the "you're going to be a cog, and you're going to like it," in my public school, especially this last year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Badlands Subject: Re: .. Date: Tue Jun 10 08:15:53 CDT 1997 Message number: 125 Reply to message number: 123 B> What does everyone think about the proposal to use money from Native America B> reservations to help fund the stadium? Dumb. One I think it's the Native Americans money to begin with, and two I think they're just passing the buck to someone whom they think they can pin the cost on without getting as much popular complaint. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Badlands Subject: Re: .. Date: Thu Jun 12 11:15:10 CDT 1997 Message number: 126 Reply to message number: 123 B> What does everyone think about the proposal to use money from Native America B> reservations to help fund the stadium? I think it's a great idea! Think of the precedent we're setting: making a wealthy minority group pay for a public facility. Next stop, miltinational stockholders foot the bill for a series of at-risk youth centers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Specter Subject: Re: .. Date: Fri Jun 13 05:38:09 CDT 1997 Message number: 127 Reply to message number: 125 B> What does everyone think about the proposal to use money from Native America B> reservations to help fund the stadium? S> S> Dumb. One I think it's the Native Americans money to begin with, and two I S> think they're just passing the buck to someone whom they think they can pin S> the cost on without getting as much popular complaint. * are they saying they want to use money from the *reservations*, or from the profits from the gambling casinos? if it's from the casinos, great. i think it's fine that the native americans are turning millionaires over this, but seeing that the people that spend their money there are basic saps from all over the states, i think they should put some of the dough into state projects. i also think they should pay state *taxes*. the 'sovereign nation' thing can be a scam. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Cosima Subject: Re: .. Date: Sat Jun 14 14:56:36 CDT 1997 Message number: 128 Reply to message number: 127 C> projects. i also think they should pay state *taxes*. the 'sovereign nation' C> thing can be a scam. In some ways it is a scam. But then again, it was their land long before we ever gor here. And more importantly, their claim to that land is legally binding. We can no more force them to pay state taxes than we can force rsidents of Iowa to pay for our state's roads and highways. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Cosima Subject: Re: .. Date: Mon Jun 16 12:26:12 CDT 1997 Message number: 129 Reply to message number: 127 S> Dumb. One I think it's the Native Americans money to begin with, and two I S> think they're just passing the buck to someone whom they think they can pin S> the cost on without getting as much popular complaint. C> * C> are they saying they want to use money from the *reservations*, or from the C> profits from the gambling casinos? if it's from the casinos, great. i think C> it's fine that the native americans are turning millionaires over this, but C> seeing that the people that spend their money there are basic saps from all C> over the states, i think they should put some of the dough into state C> projects. i also think they should pay state *taxes*. the 'sovereign nation' C> thing can be a scam. I agree about the use of it as a scam occasionally, but I'm upset because I think they just found a wealthy group, the Native Americans involved in casinos, whom they have decided to pin the cost on. I think a lot of this is them passing it on to the Native Americans because they don't hold as much political power as other wealthy groups. I mean, if they imposed taxes on AT&T because they make a lot of money, and are in this area, there'd be hell real quick. On the other hand I do think there needs to be a way to move casino revenues back into the general economy, lest it disappear to a different nation. But even then, the Native Americans deal almost exclusively with the United States econonmy, which negates part of the disappearance of the money.