------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Daedalus Rising To: All Subject: General Date: Mon Sep 26 13:26:11 CDT 1994 Message number: 1 Reply to message number: -37 This is a base for general discussions; there is no "topic". Messages can be posted anonymously under any name so long as it's not abused. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: menus Date: Fri Aug 23 16:43:26 CDT 1996 Message number: 2 Reply to message number: 1 DR> FYI: I tried it before, there are quite a few probems that crop up - scree DR> size problems (pausing in the middle of a menu), and they're a pain in the DR> ass to alter in case you want to change the menus around. There small, it should work OK. Corallary: If anybody has any problem please let me know.. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BRIAREOS HECATONCHIRES To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: The Abyss Date: Fri Aug 23 18:17:57 CDT 1996 Message number: 3 Reply to message number: -5 BH> You don't know the half of it. He beat his wife. BT> BT> Where did you find this out? It doesn't sound like something the average BT> citizen would know about... Kinda intriguing like.. I got it from a girl/feminist/friend at high school, who got it from some feminist resource-thing on the Net. Dunno where, though. There's part of me that thinks, "Yeah, he beat her; at that time, who didn't? Take it in context". The other part of me thinks, "Fuck that. The whole point of feminism was that they give all the old ideas about ''The Place of Women'' the finger." I don't know what to think, really. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BRIAREOS HECATONCHIRES To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: The Abyss Date: Fri Aug 23 18:20:05 CDT 1996 Message number: 4 Reply to message number: 0 DR> for it. Some women just get so uppity, you have to put them down and show DR> them who's boss - a quick trip to the emergency room, and I bet she'd never DR> speak out of turn again! Yep, dammit! You know, I heard a joke the other day that could be adapted to this... "Men did, indeed, love their wives before feminism came along. I bet Hitler loved his dog, too." Then of course, you can't go around blaming white males for everything, either. Balance, balance... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: BRIAREOS HECATONCHIRES Subject: Re: White Males Date: Sat Aug 24 12:20:09 CDT 1996 Message number: 5 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Briareos Hecatonchires : BH> "Men did, indeed, love their wives before feminism came along. I BH> bet Hitler loved his dog, too." Back in the old days, even the most opressed man in the world could lord over his wife and children. No wonder white males are so damned angry. BH> Then of course, you can't go around blaming white males for BH> everything, either. Balance, balance... Wait a sec, aren't you a white male too? Get the posse together, Teebo. We're goin' a lynchin'. ... Fuck! ... damn, there goes another $250,000. Thanks, Senator Exon! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: All Subject: hangups Date: Mon Aug 26 10:18:56 CDT 1996 Message number: 6 Reply to message number: unavailable Some people have trouble with the board hanging up on them at odd times - I'm trying to figure out if these are isolated incidents or if there's a problem w/ my setup. If you have or do in the future encounter hangups AFTER YOUR LOGGED IN then please leave me a note. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LEMON To: Daedalus Rising Subject: natas yebo Date: Sun Sep 01 19:14:44 CDT 1996 Message number: 7 Reply to message number: 0 DR> It'd probably end up being for her own good in the long run, too. It's a DR> proven fact, after all, that hardship and adversity builds character. DR> After being slapped around a bit - a few broken bones, a few dozen DR> bruises - she'd be a better person for it. If that's sarcasm : it's not funny If that's serious : shut the fuck up. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Lemon Subject: Re: natas yebo Date: Mon Sep 02 03:56:08 CDT 1996 Message number: 8 Reply to message number: 7 L> If that's sarcasm : it's not funny L> L> If that's serious : shut the fuck up. Hmm Bad day? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Starfox Subject: Re: natas yebo Date: Mon Sep 02 11:19:25 CDT 1996 Message number: 9 Reply to message number: 8 L> If that's sarcasm : it's not funny L> L> If that's serious : shut the fuck up. S> S> Hmm Bad day? No, bad attitude. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: LEMON Subject: Re: natas yebo Date: Mon Sep 02 14:03:18 CDT 1996 Message number: 10 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Lemon : DR> It'd probably end up being for her own good in the long run, too. It's a DR> proven fact, after all, that hardship and adversity builds character. DR> After being slapped around a bit - a few broken bones, a few dozen DR> bruises - she'd be a better person for it. Le> If that's sarcasm : it's not funny Great, if anyone found humor in that I'd be worried. ... Be suspicious of all native-born Esperanto speakers. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Lemon Subject: spousal abuse Date: Fri Sep 06 18:41:35 CDT 1996 Message number: 11 Reply to message number: 7 DR> It'd probably end up being for her own good in the long run, too. It's a DR> proven fact, after all, that hardship and adversity builds character. DR> After being slapped around a bit - a few broken bones, a few dozen DR> bruises - she'd be a better person for it. L> L> If that's sarcasm : it's not funny L> L> If that's serious : shut the fuck up. Thought I would not have worded it quite that way I did not happen to think that very apropriate of you either. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Starfire Subject: Re: spousal abuse Date: Sat Sep 07 12:39:07 CDT 1996 Message number: 12 Reply to message number: 11 DR> After being slapped around a bit - a few broken bones, a few dozen DR> bruises - she'd be a better person for it. L> L> If that's sarcasm : it's not funny L> L> If that's serious : shut the fuck up. S> S> Thought I would not have worded it quite that way I did not happen to think S> that very apropriate of you either. My thoughts too. Two wrongs don't make a right, or cchange many minds. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LEMON To: Froggy Subject: woof Date: Sun Sep 08 08:47:40 CDT 1996 Message number: 13 Reply to message number: 12 There's a difference between being abrasive and being a bastard. Not that I'm calling D. Rising a bastard, just that that rubbed me the wrong way after personal experiances. -lem ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Lemon Subject: Re: woof Date: Sun Sep 08 09:59:26 CDT 1996 Message number: 14 Reply to message number: 13 L> There's a difference between being abrasive and being a bastard. Not tha L> I'm calling D. Rising a bastard, just that that rubbed me the wrong way afte L> personal experiances. L> Much of what you have said and your attidues have also rubbed me the wrong way, including this comment to DR. My guess is that many others also have had distressing and destructive experiences, but have also learned that to lash out with profanity and bad manners does nothing to impress other people. The FACT is that DR is a good guy, is not a sexist, and would probably be the first there to help you if you needed help. Maybe it would help if you hold your venom for a while and think about it before you just lash out without thinking. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Lemon Subject: Re: woof Date: Sun Sep 08 10:38:50 CDT 1996 Message number: 15 Reply to message number: 13 L> There's a difference between being abrasive and being a bastard. Not tha L> I'm calling D. Rising a bastard, just that that rubbed me the wrong way afte L> personal experiances. I have a suggestion, LAY OFF US! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Lemon Subject: Re: offensive Date: Sun Sep 08 14:48:53 CDT 1996 Message number: 16 Reply to message number: 13 L> There's a difference between being abrasive and being a bastard. Not tha L> I'm calling D. Rising a bastard, just that that rubbed me the wrong way afte L> personal experiances. Unfortunately, you're not the only one to have gone through the wringer - but if it offended you, I apologize. That wasn't my intent. If it got you to think a bit, so much the better. All I was doing was repeating all the poor excuses and justifications I've heard spouted about over the years, none of which should stand forth as valid in anyone's mind - so the fact that you reject this crap is a good thing, is it not? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TRASH To: Lemon Subject: .... Date: Mon Sep 09 10:02:29 CDT 1996 Message number: 17 Reply to message number: unavailable Personal experinces? Did your girlfriend beat you, sonny? D.R. is politically correct, without actually being politically correct... He's a good guy... Trash ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Trash Subject: Re: .... Date: Mon Sep 09 10:23:59 CDT 1996 Message number: 18 Reply to message number: 17 T> Personal experinces? Did your girlfriend beat you, sonny? T> This is more of the same stupidity. Lemon is a woman. Think before you spout off. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Froggy Subject: Re: .... Date: Mon Sep 09 11:29:30 CDT 1996 Message number: 19 Reply to message number: 18 F> This is more of the same stupidity. Lemon is a woman. Think befor F> you spout off. It really doesn't matter if Lemonhead is male or female, which makes this kind of an inane argument, but just for the point I think Lemon's mom would hartily disagree with you.. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: .... Date: Mon Sep 09 11:59:15 CDT 1996 Message number: 20 Reply to message number: 19 F> This is more of the same stupidity. Lemon is a woman. Think befor F> you spout off. BT> BT> It really doesn't matter if Lemonhead is male or female, which makes this k BT> of an inane argument, but just for the point I think Lemon's mom would hart BT> disagree with you.. BT> So, Lemon is a male? Kind of makes my point, doesn't it? It doesn't make sense to make assumptions about people and hurt or offend them. Another thing that we covered in some detail was that men are often victims of rape and violence too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Trash Subject: Re: offensive Date: Mon Sep 09 12:51:23 CDT 1996 Message number: 21 Reply to message number: 17 T> D.R. is politically correct, without actually being politically correct... T> He's a good guy... Don't tell everyone, that'll ruin my image. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: .... Date: Mon Sep 09 13:44:22 CDT 1996 Message number: 22 Reply to message number: 19 BT> It really doesn't matter if Lemonhead is male or female, which makes this k BT> of an inane argument, but just for the point I think Lemon's mom would hart BT> disagree with you.. (This reminds me of a song "Are you a boy or a girl" hehe) Lemonhead? hmm can you change StarFox to anything? (Dont say StarSux) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Froggy Subject: Re: .... Date: Mon Sep 09 13:45:25 CDT 1996 Message number: 23 Reply to message number: 20 F> So, Lemon is a male? Kind of makes my point, doesn't it? It doesn F> make sense to make assumptions about people and hurt or offend them. Anothe F> thing that we covered in some detail was that men are often victims of rape F> and violence too. HA i thought he was a woman too. -- Really set off at that. Ya know, the latest F.U.C.K. (Fucked up collage kids or something) was about Intelegent posts. I dont see any of that anymore here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Starfox Subject: Re: .... Date: Mon Sep 09 15:19:10 CDT 1996 Message number: 24 Reply to message number: 23 S> latest F.U.C.K. (Fucked up collage kids or something) was about Intelegent S> posts. I dont see any of that anymore here. So post them, stop pointing the finger.. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LITTLE NIRO To: Froggy Subject: Re: .... Date: Mon Sep 09 16:29:35 CDT 1996 Message number: 25 Reply to message number: 18 I hate to brake mr bubble but lemons a guy. At least i'm pretty damn positive he is. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: .... Date: Mon Sep 09 18:32:56 CDT 1996 Message number: 26 Reply to message number: 24 BT> So post them, stop pointing the finger.. I disconected my realationship with the person who I was getting them from. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Starfox Subject: Re: .... Date: Mon Sep 09 22:09:36 CDT 1996 Message number: 27 Reply to message number: 22 S> you change StarFox to anything? S> (Dont say StarSux) Well, a female one would be StarVixen. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Little Niro Subject: Re: .... Date: Mon Sep 09 22:11:14 CDT 1996 Message number: 28 Reply to message number: 25 LN> I hate to brake mr bubble but lemons a guy. At least i'm pretty damn posit LN> he is. Can you positively learn how to quote? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Starfox Subject: Re: .... Date: Tue Sep 10 18:44:15 CDT 1996 Message number: 29 Reply to message number: 23 S> latest F.U.C.K. (Fucked up collage kids or something) was about Intelegent S> posts. I dont see any of that anymore here. The only way they're going to get posted is if someone starts a convo and gets it going. Can't think of something? Check the newspaper, watch the news ... got a question? a comment? an insight? post it, and start a convo. That's the way to have intelligent convernsations ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TRASH To: All Subject: Lemon Date: Mon Sep 16 05:56:42 CDT 1996 Message number: 30 Reply to message number: unavailable Lemon IS a guy, I *KNOW* him... Trash ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LITTLE NIRO To: Trash Subject: Re: Lemon Date: Mon Sep 16 14:17:05 CDT 1996 Message number: 31 Reply to message number: 30 T> Lemon IS a guy, I *KNOW* him... *KNOW* him huh? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TRASH To: Little Niro Subject: Re: Lemon Date: Mon Sep 16 19:16:17 CDT 1996 Message number: 32 Reply to message number: 31 Oh please. He doesnt have a job, how the hell could he PAY me? Trash ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: All Subject: Play Date: Wed Nov 06 17:04:02 CST 1996 Message number: 33 Reply to message number: unavailable If anyone wants to see some good theater, Cooper High School in New Hope is putting on a production of Rhinoceros. Being in the play I can state that it looks to be pretty darn good. Dates are this Thursday, Friday, and Saturday at 7:30 pm. I felt I needed to do my part in advertising. See all. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: ALL Subject: Humor! Date: Wed Nov 13 11:32:06 CST 1996 Message number: 34 Reply to message number: unavailable From: Ross Sauer Read: Yes Replied: No * Crossposted from: The Insane Asylum, LakeshoreNet Two of the political bumper stickers now being sold on the Pentagon concourse: VOTE DEMOCRAT -- IT'S EASIER THAN WORKING !!! VOTE REPUBLICAN -- IT'S EASIER THAN THINKING !!! ========== How To Tell Republicans From Democrats: Democrats buy most of the books that have been banned somewhere. Republicans form censorship committees and read them as a group. Democrats give their worn out clothes to those less fortunate. Republicans wear theirs. Democrats name their children after currently popular sports figures, politicians, and entertainers. Republican children are named after their parents or grandparents, according to where the money is. Republicans tend to keep their shades drawn, although there is seldom any reason why they should. Democrats ought to, but don't. Republican boys date Democratic girls. They plan to marry Republican girls, but feel that they're entitled to a little fun first. Democrats make plans and then do something else. Republicans follow the plans their grandfathers made. Republicans sleep in twin beds--some even in separate rooms. That is why there are more Democrats. ... Socks the Cat in the White House for four more years! All right!! ! Origin: Ivy's WALL BBS <> Sheboygan, WI 414-457-9255 (1:154/170) ... þÜþßþÜþßþÜþßþÜþßþÜþßþ OH NO, a worm in my Hard-drive! ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BADLANDS To: Specter Subject: Re: The Abyss Date: Fri Nov 29 20:05:54 CST 1996 Message number: 35 Reply to message number: -2 S> Yeah and kinda worrying to me. Ack Einstein is my hero. I can't have a her S> who beats his wife. kinda like how I liked Type O Negative until I found out they're a bunch of white supremacists.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Badlands Subject: Re: The Abyss Date: Sat Nov 30 06:16:06 CST 1996 Message number: 36 Reply to message number: 35 S> Yeah and kinda worrying to me. Ack Einstein is my hero. I can't have a her S> who beats his wife. B> B> kinda like how I liked Type O Negative until I found out they're a bunch of B> white supremacists.... kinda. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BADLANDS To: Specter Subject: Re: The Abyss Date: Sat Nov 30 19:29:32 CST 1996 Message number: 37 Reply to message number: 36 B> kinda like how I liked Type O Negative until I found out they're a bunch of B> white supremacists.... S> S> kinda. but not really. So i guess the whole thing is: learn from the past, and do everything within your power to prevent said bad things from happening again? What is the limits of one's own power? How much motivation? How much laziness/inhibition/apathy is taken into account? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Badlands Subject: Re: The Abyss Date: Sun Dec 01 17:01:12 CST 1996 Message number: 38 Reply to message number: 37 B> kinda like how I liked Type O Negative until I found out they're a bunch of B> white supremacists.... S> S> kinda. B> B> but not really. So i guess the whole thing is: learn from the past, and do B> everything within your power to prevent said bad things from happening again Sounds good. B> What is the limits of one's own power? How much motivation? How much B> laziness/inhibition/apathy is taken into account? Ooh. The limit of one's power could be as much as one is capable of achieving through one's own actions or the actions of others working for them. A person's limit changes often based upon how willing people are to listen to them and work to achieve the goals that person defines and how much that person themselves are willing to work to affect an outcome. Obviously a lazy or apathetic person excercises less power, though they may have a great potential. To answer that question well, I think it might need to be more specific. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Slowdown Date: Sun Dec 08 17:50:01 CST 1996 Message number: 39 Reply to message number: unavailable I have finals coming up in a week here, and I assume Teebo has the same thing going on ... the board's been really slow, but we don't really have time to get it going again. If y'all have a bit of time, could you try starting up a few topics and getting the board's messages going again? Thanks, it's appreciated. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Zweiter Hoyf Subject: Re: Goodbye Dissent Date: Sat Dec 14 11:14:07 CST 1996 Message number: 40 Reply to message number: -186 What? I heard nothing about the board going down... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Goodbye Dissent Date: Mon Dec 16 12:03:12 CST 1996 Message number: 41 Reply to message number: 40 FE> What? I heard nothing about the board going down... The messages are date stamped. Make use of it. :) *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THROCKMORTON To: ALL Subject: Ritalin Date: Tue Dec 17 09:35:37 CST 1996 Message number: 42 Reply to message number: unavailable Not sure which conference this one belongs in, but this seems like a good one. Did anybody else catch the article in the Sunday St Paul paper about the military rejecting applicants who took Ritalin during adolescence? As near as I can figure out from reading the article the basis is from a Defense Department directive that tells the military to reject those with a "chronic history" of an academic skills defect, which includes ADD. Opinions? Comments? I'm still sort of digesting the article, and not sure what I think of it. --- þ OLX 1.53 þ Stop the violins ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Goodbye Dissent Date: Tue Dec 17 15:10:53 CST 1996 Message number: 43 Reply to message number: 41 FE> What? I heard nothing about the board going down... BT> BT> The messages are date stamped. Make use of it. :) Sorry... Im learning ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BADLANDS To: Throckmorton Subject: Re: Ritalin Date: Sun Dec 22 20:45:49 CST 1996 Message number: 44 Reply to message number: 42 T> As near as I can figure out from reading the article the basis is from a T> Defense Department directive that tells the military to reject those T> with a "chronic history" of an academic skills defect, which includes T> ADD. T> T> Opinions? Comments? Well.... I guess it's ok. Spare those souls from the war machine, eh... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Badlands Subject: Re: Ritalin Date: Mon Dec 23 17:04:35 CST 1996 Message number: 45 Reply to message number: 44 T> As near as I can figure out from reading the article the basis is from a T> Defense Department directive that tells the military to reject those T> with a "chronic history" of an academic skills defect, which includes T> ADD. B> Well.... I guess it's ok. Spare those souls from the war machine, eh... As a great bard once wrote, ay, there's the rub. As citizens, we've bought into the recruiting messages of our own armed forces. Now, we're not sure if they're supposed to be a "war machine" or an engine of opportunity. If we're a war machine, then there's no question that so-called academic "defectives", homosexuals, women, etc., don't belong in military service--after all, we're training men to kill on command, and some to kill in very brutal, direct ways. On the other hand, if the military is an engine of opportunity for disadvantaged citizens, then everybody should be allowed in and allowed to excel to the best of that person's ability. Unfortunately for the battle-lovers in our nation, this approach gives us an army of technicians who would often rather protest a war than fight in it. I like to think of problems as solvable, but I don't see any middle ground on this issue. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: THROCKMORTON Subject: Re: Ritalin Date: Mon Dec 23 18:38:49 CST 1996 Message number: 46 Reply to message number: unavailable Th> Did anybody else catch the article in the Sunday St Paul paper about Th> the military rejecting applicants who took Ritalin during adolescence? Nope, finals week plays hell with one's schedule :-) Th> As near as I can figure out from reading the article the basis is from Th> a Defense Department directive that tells the military to reject those Th> with a "chronic history" of an academic skills defect, which includes Th> ADD. So in other words, they're taking ritalin use as a sign that someone is mentally slow - and that they're unfit for duty based on that? Seems incredibly stupid, since there seem to be a lot of parents out there who get sick of their hyperactive kids and beg their doctor into drugging them into complacency ... Ritalin use is just not a very reliable indicator for anything, at best I could see it as a red flag of some sort. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BADLANDS To: .. Subject: .. Date: Mon Dec 23 21:32:32 CST 1996 Message number: 47 Reply to message number: unavailable I believe Oakland approved..umm... African-American dialact, I forget the name of it, as an official "language". Is this giving African-Americans a special advantage or is it holding them back, or is it a necessary reflection of reality? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Badlands Subject: Re: .. Date: Tue Dec 24 00:16:57 CST 1996 Message number: 48 Reply to message number: 47 B> I believe Oakland approved..umm... African-American dialact, I forget the B> name of it, as an official "language". Is this giving African-Americans a B> special advantage or is it holding them back, or is it a necessary reflectio B> of reality? Isn't it interesting that the same group came up with this that passed Prop 209? As I hear its purpose, the point is to declare black dialect a second language, thus getting more money to teach them standard English in schools. I think this is crooked and racist. American English is composed of many dialects, and Irish-American was never designated a second language. The problem is that all systems in these young children's lives, schools, parents, community, are failing them. Young children should be taught standard English in the first place, not taught an incorrect dialect and then have extra education to unlearn it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Froggy Subject: Re: .. Date: Tue Dec 24 16:23:18 CST 1996 Message number: 49 Reply to message number: 48 B> I believe Oakland approved..umm... African-American dialact, I forget the B> name of it, as an official "language". Is this giving African-Americans a B> special advantage or is it holding them back, or is it a necessary reflectio B> of reality? The dialect is called Ebonics (an amalgamation of "ebony" and "phonics"). I agree with the Rev. Jesse Jackson, who immediately attacked the decision on a Sunday morning talk show (I think it was "Meet the Press"). His argument, in paraphrase, was that standard English is the language of power, so if we want to empower our children, we have to teach them that language. He also asserted that the children are perfectly capable of learning that language if challenged to do so. I agree with him. F> Isn't it interesting that the same group came up with this that F> passed Prop 209? Actually, it wasn't the same group. Prop 209 was passed by a majority of voters throughout California; this decision was made by the Oakland School Board, a decidedly more limited population. F> As I hear its purpose, the point is to declare black dialect as F> a second language, thus getting more money to teach them standard English in F> schools. Or, more cynically, more money for other purposes, such as random drug searches. This is exactly the motivation--greed masquerading as misguided liberalism. F> I think this is crooked and racist. My sentiments exactly. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: .. Date: Tue Dec 24 17:49:52 CST 1996 Message number: 50 Reply to message number: 49 DT> agree with the Rev. Jesse Jackson, who immediately attacked the decision on DT> Sunday morning talk show (I think it was "Meet the Press"). His argument, DT> paraphrase, was that standard English is the language of power, so if we wa DT> to empower our children, we have to teach them that language. He also I agree, but not to listen too hard to what Jesse says himself. I keep thinking that it should end with "Burma Shave." DT> Actually, it wasn't the same group. Prop 209 was passed by a majority of DT> voters throughout California; this decision was made by the Oakland School DT> Board, a decidedly more limited population. Not exactly the same group, but I was generally indicting Californians. I wonder how many of the school board members voted for Prop 209. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THROCKMORTON To: BADLANDS Subject: .. Date: Thu Dec 26 12:08:06 CST 1996 Message number: 51 Reply to message number: unavailable B>I believe Oakland approved..umm... African-American dialact, I forget the >name of it, as an official "language". Is this giving African-Americans a >special advantage or is it holding them back, or is it a necessary reflectio >of reality? Ebonics. For once I find myself agreeing with Jesse Jackson when he says that the Oakland School District is wrong in doing this. It is both racist and demeaning, saying that black children are not capable of learning English the way it is spoken by the majority of the people in this country. --- þ OLX 1.53 þ Roadkill on the information superhighway ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE To: Anyone Who Cares Subject: ebonics Date: Sat Jan 18 05:53:45 CST 1997 Message number: 52 Reply to message number: unavailable I've heard people discuss both sides of this subject and I guess I understand the point each side has... I don't agree with it being "taught" in school. And I think that if they want to be understood, then they ought to learn American. (I don't refer to the language we speak as English, because it isn't!!! It's American!!!) It's ok, if they want to have that kind of jumbled up American euphanisms as their language outside of school.. we all had slang in our day... but really!!! To actually teach it in school as a second language? Give me a break...! On the other hand... wouldn't it be nice to be able to understand what the heck they're saying????? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: ebonics Date: Sun Jan 19 16:03:01 CST 1997 Message number: 53 Reply to message number: 52 TD> I've heard people discuss both sides of this subject and I guess I understa TD> the point each side has... I can understand the points, too, and I'm as liberal as anybody, but the "Ebonics as ESL" people are just plain misguided. Mark Russell, the musical political satirist who occasionally appears on PBS or CNN, had the following observation, "If James Earl Jones had spoken Ebonics, he would have said, 'This be CNN.'" Also, TD, I find that I'm going to have to call you TD. Why? Because I have a _visceral_ reaction against the Tazmanian Devil. "Taz" is way too popular, and for all the wrong reasons. Nothing against you, TD, but I just can't stand "Taz". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: ebonics Date: Sun Jan 19 16:57:40 CST 1997 Message number: 54 Reply to message number: 52 TD> I've heard people discuss both sides of this subject and I guess I understa TD> the point each side has... I don't agree with it being "taught" in school. TD> And I think that if they want to be understood, then they ought to learn TD> American. (I don't refer to the language we speak as English, because it TD> isn't!!! It's American!!!) It's ok, if they want to have that kind of jumb TD> up American euphanisms as their language outside of school.. we all had sla TD> in our day... but really!!! To actually teach it in school as a second TD> language? Give me a break...! On the other hand... wouldn't it be nice to TD> able to understand what the heck they're saying????? * it sure is a topic that's whipped up alot of controversy, hasn't it. i think it's a failing school system trying whatever it can to not give up altogether. and i think it sucks. everyone *should* keep their heritage- their customs and languages and pride- intact- pass it on and nurture it in the family. but not cut themselves off from being able to survive in the world- whether it's social, business or academic- by not being able to communicate in the language that's being used. IMO it's another way to keep african americans in the ghetto. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Taz Date: Mon Jan 20 06:43:40 CST 1997 Message number: 55 Reply to message number: 53 DT> Also, TD, I find that I'm going to have to call you TD. Why? Because I ha DT> a _visceral_ reaction against the Tazmanian Devil. "Taz" is way too popula DT> and for all the wrong reasons. Nothing against you, TD, but I just can't DT> stand "Taz". And isn't it funny, but I call Top City BBS all the time, and that's what everyone calls me there... TAZ... even tho there are probably 10 different Taz's of all sorts on the board... I seem to be THE Taz... hehe! Well, whatever you want to use is fine with me... :) I'll at least know who you're talking to! :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE To: Cosima Subject: Re: ebonics Date: Mon Jan 20 06:45:51 CST 1997 Message number: 56 Reply to message number: 54 C> cut themselves off from being able to survive in the world- whether it's C> social, business or academic- by not being able to communicate in the langua C> that's being used. IMO it's another way to keep african americans in the C> ghetto. And geesh... should that surprise you? Really!!! They have been trying to keep the poor people poor and the rich people rich since time began! Americans seem to think that there is no "caste" system here! HAH!!!!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: All Subject: MMX Date: Tue Jan 21 15:14:37 CST 1997 Message number: 57 Reply to message number: unavailable Okay... I really do not know that much about CPU's and I am not quite as good as all of you on backing up my evidence but here goes: From what I gather the iPentium MMX series of CPU's are about the largest joke/scam in the history of thw world!!! Okay from what I gather all the MMX chip does is adds some stuff in the CPU for better video right?????? Well... Where in the hell is that supposed to take a timeslice from? The CPU right???? I dunno but I think thats right... Here is what I think (right or not, you can change my mind) I think the iPentium MMX chip was made FOR the manufacturers! Think... As I do now and then... What the MMX chip REALLY does is gives you better video without the beefy video card... sooooooo could a PC manufacturer get away with putting a $50.00 cheaper video card in there and still get the performace they were getting with the $50.00+ video card????? Think about that one... It till has me thinking... Because they REALLY cant give us a reason why the iPentium MMX's dont rate near what the iPro CPU's do... Send me some mail back on this one!!! AS I said I know not everything! I'm just trying to figure this one out! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: All Subject: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Tue Jan 21 15:20:12 CST 1997 Message number: 58 Reply to message number: unavailable Okay... Another kewl thought for yas... I HAVE EVIDENCE FOR THIS ONE!!!! Oh my God froggy is going to shit a brick! j/k froggy... Anyways... As you may know the Intel PentumPro CPU is a 32-bit native CPU... Right? And as you may know MS-Windows 95 is a 16-bit operating system with 32-bit extensions! Now... When a CPU has to emulate 16-bit mode it slows the thing down... way down... to a friggin crawl... now In October 1996 Windows Sources magazine (And every other friggin magazine you can find) Gateway 2000 has there lil cute foldout ad thingy right? Well if you look at the systems they have Windows 95 is the ONLY operating system avalible in the PPro-200 system... Now... Why in the hell would they go and do something like that? A 32-bit CPU and a 16-bit processer?!?!?!!??! That slows the thing way the hell down... Now I know this mag is old but look around at any of the PC computing or any friggin mag you can find... I dont know if any other co's have this but I was just wondering... kewl huh? Comments rule... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: All Subject: AOL/Compuserve? Date: Tue Jan 21 15:22:43 CST 1997 Message number: 59 Reply to message number: unavailable There are rumors of an AOL/Compuserve merge... A few thoughts about this... 1=> If you have any $$$ invested in Prodigy your screwed... 2=> AOL really got to thinkin' (how the hell did I just change the color?!?!) NOW... Cmpuserve has the lines... but not the members... AOL has the users but not the lines... They must not have talked to their network people first... 3=> That color thing was really trippy... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Fatal Error Subject: ya Date: Tue Jan 21 17:08:53 CST 1997 Message number: 60 Reply to message number: 57 FE> Send me some mail back on this one!!! AS I said I know not everything! I'm FE> just trying to figure this one out! Exactly, if not damn close ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Tue Jan 21 17:11:04 CST 1997 Message number: 61 Reply to message number: 58 FE> Okay... Another kewl thought for yas... I HAVE EVIDENCE FOR THIS ONE!!!! Oh FE> God froggy is going to shit a brick! j/k froggy... Anyways... As you may kn FE> the Intel PentumPro CPU is a 32-bit native CPU... Right? And as you may kno FE> MS-Windows 95 is a 16-bit operating system with 32-bit extensions! Now... W FE> a CPU has to emulate 16-bit mode it slows the thing down... way down... to This is rediculas. Gates should have put forth the time and effort(like he did it in the first place) to make it a good OS.. but the "Fuck the customers, gimme more money" attitude comes into play. FE> friggin crawl... now In October 1996 Windows Sources magazine (And every o FE> friggin magazine you can find) Gateway 2000 has there lil cute foldout ad FE> thingy right? Well if you look at the systems they have Windows 95 is the O FE> operating system avalible in the PPro-200 system... Now... Why in the hell FE> would they go and do something like that? A 32-bit CPU and a 16-bit FE> processer?!?!?!!??! That slows the thing way the hell down... Now I know t FE> mag is old but look around at any of the PC computing or any friggin mag yo FE> can find... I dont know if any other co's have this but I was just FE> wondering... kewl huh? I say - Unix or IRIX :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: AOL/Compuserve? Date: Tue Jan 21 17:12:07 CST 1997 Message number: 62 Reply to message number: 59 2=> AOL really got to thinkin' (how the hell did I just change the color?!?!) you changed the color when you used the QUOTE character. on this BBS it is apperently a ">" if that explains it >asd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE Subject: Re: ebonics Date: Wed Jan 22 03:42:01 CST 1997 Message number: 63 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Tazmanian Devilette : TD> And geesh... should that surprise you? Really!!! They have been TD> trying to keep the poor people poor and the rich people rich since TD> time began! Americans seem to think that there is no "caste" system TD> here! HAH!!!!!!! There are no castes or classes here in America, we're a perfectly egalitarian society. Men and women gain their wealth strictly through ability, merit and dedication. Poor people, on the other hand, are poor simply because they want to be. Where have you learned such terrible lies, praytell? ... Eat the rich. The poor are tough and stringy. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: FATAL ERROR Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Wed Jan 22 03:58:33 CST 1997 Message number: 64 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Fatal Error : FE> the ONLY operating system avalible in the PPro-200 system... Now... Why FE> in the hell would they go and do something like that? A 32-bit CPU and FE> a 16-bit processer?!?!?!!??! Simple, because Windows 95 is the default operating system they put in all new computers and computer packages. They generally have all the drivers and software peripherals setup for it, and there just isn't a market to expand it to other operating systems. I had the same thing happen when I got my P-100 laptop, Windows 95 was pre-installed and almost impossible to get rid of because everything is setup for Win 95. ... Privatize the profits. Socialize the costs. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Starfox Subject: Re: ya Date: Wed Jan 22 12:58:13 CST 1997 Message number: 65 Reply to message number: 60 S> Exactly, if not damn close holy balls... I was actully right on one... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Starfox Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Wed Jan 22 13:00:10 CST 1997 Message number: 66 Reply to message number: 61 S> This is rediculas. Gates should have put forth the time and effort(like he S> did it in the first place) to make it a good OS.. but the "Fuck the S> customers, gimme more money" attitude comes into play. No kiddin... They are receiving Windows 96 for friggin cheap... they would actully have to put forth some extra $$$ to get a good OS!!! S> I say - Unix or IRIX :) nah.... Maybe on the professional systems... but if you want to talk about in home PC's I think that like NT would be the best... The same friggin interface (the customers would hardly notice) and it would fly! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Wed Jan 22 13:01:43 CST 1997 Message number: 67 Reply to message number: 64 DR> Simple, because Windows 95 is the default operating system they put DR> in all new computers and computer packages. They generally have all the DR> drivers and software peripherals setup for it, and there just isn't a marke DR> to expand it to other operating systems. Do you think a huge company like that does not have the resources to find extensions?? (Hell, They make the ones they use now!) I think it would be a really good idea to look into NT! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Wed Jan 22 15:58:59 CST 1997 Message number: 68 Reply to message number: 66 FE> nah.... Maybe on the professional systems... but if you want to talk about FE> home PC's I think that like NT would be the best... The same friggin interf FE> (the customers would hardly notice) and it would fly! I think on a personal computer that just PC/MS Dos would be fine with DV :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: FATAL ERROR Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Thu Jan 23 10:18:46 CST 1997 Message number: 69 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Fatal Error : DR> Simple, because Windows 95 is the default operating system they put DR> in all new computers and computer packages. They generally have all the DR> drivers and software peripherals setup for it, and there just isn't a mar DR> to expand it to other operating systems. FE> Do you think a huge company like that does not have the resources to FE> find extensions?? (Hell, They make the ones they use now!) I think it FE> would be a really good idea to look into NT! Sure they have the money and respources, but this is business - not monopoly. The name of the game is to cut as many superfulous costs as possible, which includes simplifying the product line. Offering the same laptop with Os/2, Win95, NT, Unix, etc is not cost-effective because there would be very little return on their investment ... the little extra business they did would likely not make up for the added costs of offering such a diverse product line. ... It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Starfox Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Thu Jan 23 11:30:03 CST 1997 Message number: 70 Reply to message number: 68 DV just is not good enough for the home PC's... I do like it for bbs's though ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Thu Jan 23 11:31:47 CST 1997 Message number: 71 Reply to message number: 69 DR> Sure they have the money and respources, but this is business - not DR> monopoly. The name of the game is to cut as many superfulous costs as DR> possible, which includes simplifying the product line. Offering the same DR> laptop with Os/2, Win95, NT, Unix, etc is not cost-effective because DR> there would be very little return on their investment ... the little DR> extra business they did would likely not make up for the added costs DR> of offering such a diverse product line. You do have a good point... but... Dont you think they could really pull some customers if they did this and then released a benchmark????? How much faster there systems were than the compitions! Hey if anyone has the NUP 2 7 seas its you... Would you write it to me in EMAIL please?!?! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: FATAL ERROR Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Thu Jan 23 13:41:07 CST 1997 Message number: 72 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Fatal Error : DR> there would be very little return on their investment ... the little DR> extra business they did would likely not make up for the added costs DR> of offering such a diverse product line. FE> You do have a good point... but... Dont you think they could really FE> pull some customers if they did this and then released a FE> benchmark????? How much faster there systems were than the compitions! Something along the lines of, "You get a faster computer, but have to learn how to use OS/2 and learn how to use new software in your home or office" ...? Win 95 is ubiquitous, and people like it. Scary, but true. ... The best defense against logic is stupidity. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Thu Jan 23 14:21:01 CST 1997 Message number: 73 Reply to message number: 70 FE> DV just is not good enough for the home PC's... I do like it for bbs's thou Oh, you havnt seen the new quoterdek or whatever DV?? hmm.. check out best buy or SC ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: ebonics Date: Fri Jan 24 03:05:36 CST 1997 Message number: 74 Reply to message number: 63 C'mon, I could ask you the same question... Who's been telling you thse lies? Haven't you heard the old adage "It takes money to make money?" You go out there and try to get a job that pays you decent money, with no college ed and with no money to buy decent clothes for a job interview!!! See how far you make it... I want to see someone go into one of these places, looking like they are poor, with thread-bare clothes and not very much confidence (which lack of education and poor living conditions will instill) and see if you can get a job that pays you more than minimum wage. And minimum wage is hardly enough for one person to survive on, let alone be able to buy nice things with. The minimum wage standards don't even keep up with the raises in cost of living! Tell me that they aren't trying to keep the poor people poor!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: AOL/Compuserve? Date: Fri Jan 24 06:33:17 CST 1997 Message number: 75 Reply to message number: 59 FE> There are rumors of an AOL/Compuserve merge... A few thoughts about this... FE> 1=> If you have any $$$ invested in Prodigy your screwed... FE> 2=> AOL really got to thinkin' (how the hell did I just change the color?!?!) FE> NOW... Cmpuserve has the lines... but not the members... AOL has the users FE> not the lines... They must not have talked to their network people first... * i'll check it out. my family has an AO-hell membership, and there was some bullshit 'letter from the president' to 'make your experience a better one.' is compu-slave still outrageously expensive, or have they done the unlimited thing like aol? it's weird getting back on aol again- the same losers who were there 3 years ago when i was addicted are still there- doin the same old same old. sigh. (heheh of course *I* do the same old DIFFERENT old) -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: ebonics Date: Fri Jan 24 06:35:27 CST 1997 Message number: 76 Reply to message number: 63 DR> There are no castes or classes here in America, we're a perfectly DR> egalitarian society. Men and women gain their wealth strictly through DR> ability, merit and dedication. Poor people, on the other hand, are poor DR> simply because they want to be. DR> DR> Where have you learned such terrible lies, praytell? * LOL! and i always maintained that it was impossible to express sarcasm on the 'net.... -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: ebonics Date: Fri Jan 24 15:04:40 CST 1997 Message number: 77 Reply to message number: 74 TD> make it... I want to see someone go into one of these places, looking like TD> they are poor, with thread-bare clothes and not very much confidence (which TD> lack of education and poor living conditions will instill) and see if you c TD> get a job that pays you more than minimum wage. And minimum wage is hardly Don't forget about the reactions you get from employers when you tell them you have a North Minneapolis address, have no phone or car. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Cosima Subject: Re: AOL/Compuserve? Date: Fri Jan 24 16:17:00 CST 1997 Message number: 78 Reply to message number: 75 C> i'll check it out. my family has an AO-hell membership, and there was some Your a liar... There is no such thing as a AOHELL membership... AOHELL is a addon program for AOL... Sorry d00d... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: AOL/Compuserve? Date: Sat Jan 25 01:15:31 CST 1997 Message number: 79 Reply to message number: 78 C> i'll check it out. my family has an AO-hell membership, and there was some FE> FE> Your a liar... There is no such thing as a AOHELL membership... AOHELL is a FE> addon program for AOL... Sorry d00d... Watch the rude and indecent addressing othe users. It only shows what an uncivilized fool you are. I have seen people on other BBSs refer to AOL as AO-hell, having nothing to do with an add-on program. Maybe you are the one who is uninformed? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Sat Jan 25 03:28:08 CST 1997 Message number: 80 Reply to message number: 66 FE> No kiddin... They are receiving Windows 96 for friggin cheap... they would FE> actully have to put forth some extra $$$ to get a good OS!!! Linux and FreeBSD are still free. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: AOL/Compuserve? Date: Sat Jan 25 05:18:36 CST 1997 Message number: 81 Reply to message number: 78 C> i'll check it out. my family has an AO-hell membership, and there was some FE> FE> Your a liar... There is no such thing as a AOHELL membership... AOHELL is a FE> addon program for AOL... Sorry d00d... I think they ment aol, and didnt know about the stupid AHOLEE program.. like they were kinda slamin aol, or soemthing ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Sat Jan 25 05:19:16 CST 1997 Message number: 82 Reply to message number: 80 BT> Linux and FreeBSD are still free. Linx - Linux? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE Subject: Re: ebonics Date: Sat Jan 25 06:46:56 CST 1997 Message number: 83 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Tazmanian Devilette : TD> C'mon, I could ask you the same question... Who's been telling you TD> thse lies? Haven't you heard the old adage "It takes money to make TD> money?" Yes, it's a line that the local Communists are always spouting off about. I mean really, face the facts - you don't need anything but a strong back and a strong work ethic to make money, and lots of it. I'm sure we all know of at least a half a dozen inner-city kids and crack babies who have worked their way to the top just by working hard and putting their nose to the grindstone. TD> a job interview!!! See how far you make it... I want to see someone go TD> into one of these places, looking like they are poor, with thread-bare TD> clothes and not very much confidence (which lack of education and poor TD> living conditions will instill) and see if you can get a job that pays TD> you more than minimum wage. They're hiring people at $7 an hour at the local Taco Bell, which at full time would catch someone $14,000 a year. Plenty of money to raise a family on ... and cheap, nutritious, cheesy nachos to boot. TD> Tell me that they aren't trying to keep the poor people poor!!! Why would anyone want to keep poor people poor? Poor people can't buy TVs and VCRs, if there were too many poor people we'd end up in a depression or something. ... If voting really effected change, it would be illegal. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: COSIMA Subject: Re: ebonics Date: Sat Jan 25 06:46:57 CST 1997 Message number: 84 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Cosima : DR> There are no castes or classes here in America, we're a perfectly DR> egalitarian society. Men and women gain their wealth strictly through DR> ability, merit and dedication. Poor people, on the other hand, are poor DR> simply because they want to be. Co> LOL! and i always maintained that it was impossible to express sarcasm Co> on the 'net.... Who's being sarcastic? Sheesh. I'm just stating my views, as the newest member of the Young Republican party on the Hamline campus is wont to do. Let me guess ... you're one of those femi-nazi commiunist liberals, aren't you? ... The best defense against logic is stupidity. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: ebonics Date: Sat Jan 25 09:04:30 CST 1997 Message number: 85 Reply to message number: 84 DR> Co> LOL! and i always maintained that it was impossible to express sarcasm DR> Co> on the 'net.... DR> DR> Who's being sarcastic? Sheesh. I'm just stating my views, as the newest DR> member of the Young Republican party on the Hamline campus is wont to do. DR> AAARRRGGGGHHHHHH! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: AOL/Compuserve? Date: Sat Jan 25 15:41:53 CST 1997 Message number: 86 Reply to message number: 79 F> Watch the rude and indecent addressing othe users. It only shows F> what an uncivilized fool you are. I have seen people on other BBSs refer to F> AOL as AO-hell, having nothing to do with an add-on program. Maybe you are F> the one who is uninformed? That's always possible... You know not what you say... You have no idea if I am a fool or not... I never directed that message your way... As dar as I know that person might be a liar... I have done no more then you have just done... I assumed that a user was a liar and you assumed that another user was a fool. Greets ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Sat Jan 25 15:42:43 CST 1997 Message number: 87 Reply to message number: 80 BT> Linux and FreeBSD are still free. I know such a small amount about those OS's that im afraid to even reply to this message... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Starfox Subject: Re: AOL/Compuserve? Date: Sat Jan 25 15:43:28 CST 1997 Message number: 88 Reply to message number: 81 S> I think they ment aol, and didnt know about the stupid AHOLEE program.. like S> they were kinda slamin aol, or soemthing I understand that now... As froggy has cleared it up... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: ebonics Date: Sat Jan 25 19:37:10 CST 1997 Message number: 89 Reply to message number: 85 DR> Who's being sarcastic? Sheesh. I'm just stating my views, as the newest DR> member of the Young Republican party on the Hamline campus is wont to do. DR> F> AAARRRGGGGHHHHHH! Agreed. Let me repeat that once for emphasis. AAARRRGGGGHHHHHH! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Sun Jan 26 01:49:18 CST 1997 Message number: 90 Reply to message number: 87 FE> I know such a small amount about those OS's that im afraid to even reply to FE> this message... If you can spare 100 megs of HD space, get linux, no if's and's or but's.. It's one of the better things that'll happen to you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: AOL/Compuserve? Date: Sun Jan 26 05:37:38 CST 1997 Message number: 91 Reply to message number: 86 F> Watch the rude and indecent addressing othe users. It only shows F> what an uncivilized fool you are. I have seen people on other BBSs refer to FE> That's always possible... You know not what you say... You have no idea if FE> am a fool or not... I never directed that message your way... As dar as I k FE> that person might be a liar... I have done no more then you have just done. FE> I assumed that a user was a liar and you assumed that another user was a fo FE> No, you demonstrated that you were a fool, by assuming that the other person was lying and by saying so without checking it out. I made no assumptions. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Sun Jan 26 06:40:13 CST 1997 Message number: 92 Reply to message number: 90 TI> If you can spare 100 megs of HD space, get linux, no if's and's or but' TI> It's one of the better things that'll happen to you. Tell me more about it... Is it anything like UNIX? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: AOL/Compuserve? Date: Sun Jan 26 06:41:19 CST 1997 Message number: 93 Reply to message number: 91 F> No, you demonstrated that you were a fool, by assuming that the oth F> person was lying and by saying so without checking it out. I made no F> assumptions. no... You did the same... You made an assumption... You did no checking... You read 1 message and decided that I was a fool... You are just as bad about jumping to conclusions as I... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: ebonics Date: Sun Jan 26 16:51:26 CST 1997 Message number: 94 Reply to message number: 56 TD> And geesh... should that surprise you? Really!!! They have been trying to TD> keep the poor people poor and the rich people rich since time began! TD> Americans seem to think that there is no "caste" system here! HAH!!!!!!! Finally, a woman after my own heart! Now if only we could convince everybody else... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: ebonics Date: Sun Jan 26 17:01:32 CST 1997 Message number: 95 Reply to message number: 83 DR> TD> C'mon, I could ask you the same question... Who's been telling you DR> TD> thse lies? Haven't you heard the old adage "It takes money to make DR> TD> money?" DR> DR> Yes, it's a line that the local Communists are always spouting off about. DR> I mean really, face the facts - you don't need anything but a strong DR> back and a strong work ethic to make money, and lots of it. I'm sure we DR> all know of at least a half a dozen inner-city kids and crack babies who DR> have worked their way to the top just by working hard and putting their DR> nose to the grindstone. I have heard of some of these people, but they all seem to be professional athletes, actors, or stand-up comics. I guess that's where you find all the truly dedicated, honest people. DR> TD> a job interview!!! See how far you make it... I want to see someone g DR> TD> into one of these places, looking like they are poor, with thread-bar DR> TD> clothes and not very much confidence (which lack of education and poo DR> TD> living conditions will instill) and see if you can get a job that pay DR> TD> you more than minimum wage. DR> DR> They're hiring people at $7 an hour at the local Taco Bell, which at full DR> time would catch someone $14,000 a year. Plenty of money to raise a family DR> on ... and cheap, nutritious, cheesy nachos to boot. And with the new revelations about the Consumer Price Index, we learn that $14,000 really is a lot of money! Had the CPI not overestimated inflation all those years, we would recognize that someone isn't really poor unless they make less than $9,200 per year. DR> TD> Tell me that they aren't trying to keep the poor people poor!!! DR> DR> Why would anyone want to keep poor people poor? Poor people can't buy TVs DR> and VCRs, if there were too many poor people we'd end up in a depression DR> or something. Man, Daedalus, when you're on, you just get into a zone, don't you? You blow me away. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: AOL/Compuserve? Date: Sun Jan 26 17:04:57 CST 1997 Message number: 96 Reply to message number: 93 F> No, you demonstrated that you were a fool, by assuming that the oth F> person was lying and by saying so without checking it out. I made no F> assumptions. FE> no... You did the same... You made an assumption... You did no checking... FE> read 1 message and decided that I was a fool... You are just as bad about FE> jumping to conclusions as I... Who is the greater fool, the fool or the fool who follows him? I think he's got you, though, Fatal. It wasn't so much the content of your post that marked you as overeager and truculent, it was the tone. If you want to be sarcatically humorous, read over Daedalus Rising's posts on this board in the past week--he's set the bar pretty darned high... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Starfox Subject: Re: AOL/Compuserve? Date: Mon Jan 27 03:16:05 CST 1997 Message number: 97 Reply to message number: 81 C> i'll check it out. my family has an AO-hell membership, and there was some FE> FE> Your a liar... There is no such thing as a AOHELL membership... AOHELL is a FE> addon program for AOL... Sorry d00d... S> S> I think they ment aol, and didnt know about the stupid AHOLEE program.. like S> they were kinda slamin aol, or soemthing * yup, i was joking...remember 'humor'? or is that something people don't get, these days...i was definitely 'kinda' slamming AOL. it'll be interesting to see what happens with all these lawsuits that are being started against AOL these days, people bitching about the prices they've paid, people bitching about not being able to get connected. that one, i don't get, though- if a person doesn't like AOL, why not go to the millions of other internet servers around? it's not like electricity or phone service- you don't like it, get someone else... -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: ebonics Date: Mon Jan 27 03:17:39 CST 1997 Message number: 98 Reply to message number: 84 DR> Let me guess ... you're one of those femi-nazi commiunist liberals, aren't DR> you? * sigh...where *is* the old viper when we need a good dose of redneck humor. yup. feminazi pinko commie, that's Moi. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Cosima Subject: Re: ebonics Date: Mon Jan 27 04:56:43 CST 1997 Message number: 99 Reply to message number: 98 C> sigh...where *is* the old viper when we need a good dose of redneck humor. C> yup. feminazi pinko commie, that's Moi. Check the postings of Lucius Sulla. Not quite as juicy, but very entertaining. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Mon Jan 27 08:44:01 CST 1997 Message number: 100 Reply to message number: 92 TI> If you can spare 100 megs of HD space, get linux, no if's and's or but' TI> It's one of the better things that'll happen to you. FE> FE> Tell me more about it... Is it anything like UNIX? "Is it anything like unix" ? Linux is unix.. There is no one true unix, despite what people say :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: AOL/Compuserve? Date: Mon Jan 27 15:04:07 CST 1997 Message number: 101 Reply to message number: 96 DT> Who is the greater fool, the fool or the fool who follows him? DT> DT> I think he's got you, though, Fatal. It wasn't so much the content of your DT> post that marked you as overeager and truculent, it was the tone. If you w DT> to be sarcatically humorous, read over Daedalus Rising's posts on this boar DT> in the past week--he's set the bar pretty darned high... holy balls... I didnt even understand a few of those words... All you adult people are really getting me with these words... hehe... j/k... I should have checked out what I said first... but I did not... Oh well... Life shall go on for all of us... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Mon Jan 27 15:04:57 CST 1997 Message number: 102 Reply to message number: 100 TI> "Is it anything like unix" ? Linux is unix.. There is no one true unix, TI> despite what people say :) That is because UNIX was created by Anarchists... If you ask me anyways... Hey I have not seen you round for a while... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Mon Jan 27 15:25:44 CST 1997 Message number: 103 Reply to message number: 102 TI> "Is it anything like unix" ? Linux is unix.. There is no one true unix, TI> despite what people say :) FE> FE> That is because UNIX was created by Anarchists... If you ask me anyways... FE> I have not seen you round for a while... Whaaaaat??? Unix was the first large operating system and was built by a collaboration of universities and CORPORATIONS. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: ALL Subject: email Date: Mon Jan 27 18:22:24 CST 1997 Message number: 104 Reply to message number: unavailable I had two emails which I lost in the past day or two, basically due to the combination of NyQuil, a head cold and an offline mail packet ... for the same reason, I can't even remember what they were or who they were from, so if you're one of the piqued emailers that's my best version of an excuse :-) ... Money can't buy happiness, but allows a choice of misery. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: FROGGY Subject: Re: Young Republican Date: Mon Jan 27 18:22:25 CST 1997 Message number: 105 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Froggy : DR> Who's being sarcastic? Sheesh. I'm just stating my views, as the newest DR> member of the Young Republican party on the Hamline campus is wont to do. DR> Fr> AAARRRGGGGHHHHHH! What, is there something wrong with going to Hamline? Sheesh, you people are just so judgemental. ... If Christ loved & forgave people, why can't Christians? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: DAVE THE LUCKY Subject: Re: The Rising Tide Date: Mon Jan 27 18:22:26 CST 1997 Message number: 106 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Dave The Lucky : DR> all know of at least a half a dozen inner-city kids and crack babies who DR> have worked their way to the top just by working hard and putting their DR> nose to the grindstone. DTL> I have heard of some of these people, but they all seem to be DTL> professional athletes, actors, or stand-up comics. I guess that's DTL> where you find all the truly dedicated, honest people. No, the answer is really a lot simpler than that. Athletes, comics and actors all have very easy jobs with lots of time off. The lazy, overfed poor people in this country snap up those jobs in a heartbeat, because they're all good at one thing - avoiding work. DTL> And with the new revelations about the Consumer Price Index, we learn DTL> that $14,000 really is a lot of money! Had the CPI not overestimated DTL> inflation all those years, we would recognize that someone isn't really DTL> poor unless they make less than $9,200 per year. And that's only half the story. Since the poverty index is based on living standards for a family of four, we can safely chop that $9200 down to $2300 ... and *anyone* can make $2300 a year, so therefore we really have no poor people in this country. Anyone who makes less than this doesn't want to work, and is therefore not poor - just unrepentantly lazy! DR> Why would anyone want to keep poor people poor? Poor people can't buy TV DR> and VCRs, if there were too many poor people we'd end up in a depression DR> or something. DTL> Man, Daedalus, when you're on, you just get into a zone, don't you? DTL> You blow me away. Can I count on your vote this November then? ... Texas is the Reason ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE To: Daedalus Rising Subject: po' folk Date: Tue Jan 28 04:03:47 CST 1997 Message number: 107 Reply to message number: 83 Poor people will still buy things... even if they have to get them used, they will have the things that their kids see if they can get them.. one way or another... some poor people can hardly afford to eat in this country. America is the richest country in the world, but we have homeless and straving people littering our streets. (I suppose "littering" is a poor choice of words, but you get the gist) In Mpls alone... look at all the homes that are boarded up and condemed, most of which have only to pay the water bill to get them back in use again... and yet, we have homeless people dying in the streets becaue of the cold.. Our government seems to have enough money to send food, arms and whatever else over-seas, but yet, can't seem to take care of our own people. They take these homes and make them hud homes and sell them evenutally to people that have the money or can get a loan from the bank, but they have to have a job first, right? Many homeless people are stuck between a rock and a hard place... you have to have an address and a phone number for an employer before they will hire you... and where does that leave them...? And on top of this... there would be no comparison to make from rich and poor if we all had the same amount of everything. C'mon... Look at Bill Cosby's son, who was murdered recently and all the money that has been offered thru different agencies to find his killer, not only the police and government have offerred money, but let's just take that as an example... if that were MY son, that was shot and killed that kind of money would never be put up by any federal/state agency to find the killer.... But just because Bill Cosby is a rich and powerful man (and in my opinion those two words are equations in this country) they offer this kind of reward to find his son's killer. I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with you on this one... there is a caste system here, but we just don't classify it as such... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE To: Dave The Lucky Subject: castes Date: Tue Jan 28 04:04:49 CST 1997 Message number: 108 Reply to message number: 94 I'm trying dear... read the previous post to this one, re: this :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: po' folk Date: Tue Jan 28 06:33:54 CST 1997 Message number: 109 Reply to message number: 107 TD> but I just can't agree with you on this one... there is a caste system here TD> but we just don't classify it as such... Most of us who have been on here longer and know DR better know that he knows all of this and agrees with you. His comment was sarcastic. As a matter of fact, if you check in long enough, he will probably amaze you as he downloads and contributes new information to support your words. Glad for your contributions, too. TD> is the richest country in the world, but we have homeless and straving peop TD> littering our streets. (I suppose "littering" is a poor choice of words, bu TD> you get the gist) In Mpls alone... look at all the homes that are boarded Maybe not. One of the latest things that is happening is that downtown businesses are locking and installing security in their bathrooms to keep the homeless out. At least they used to have these for bodily functions and to brush their teeth so they could go to a job interview. Now there is less of that available too. TD> people. They take these homes and make them hud homes and sell them TD> evenutally to people that have the money or can get a loan from the bank, b TD> they have to have a job first, right? Many homeless people are stuck betwe Some of that boarded-up housing is also closed because of code violations because the housing is old and newer building codes have been put in place that prevent low-income people from buying it. An example is that I won a HUD bid to byu a nice small farm house once. It was in decent shape, except that the previous tenant had moved out leaving the water to the toilet on. The plastic feed line froze and burst. Bankers and lenders would not lend me the money to buy the property because they claimed that it had "no modern bathroom." I asked HUD to allow me to enter the house and repair the feed line, which would have taken 5 minutes. They wouldn't allow it. So, I lost the property, and a person who could pay cash in full bought it, because they did not need the bankers. This is the kind of crap that needs to be fixed before there can be real fairness. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: castes Date: Tue Jan 28 06:35:17 CST 1997 Message number: 110 Reply to message number: 108 TD> I'm trying dear... read the previous post to this one, re: this :) As soon as you figure out that our hearts are with you and that they are talking sarcastically, you will understand. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Tue Jan 28 10:05:05 CST 1997 Message number: 111 Reply to message number: 102 FE> That is because UNIX was created by Anarchists... If you ask me anyways... FE> I have not seen you round for a while... Unix created by anarchists eh? I wouldn't go that far. It was created either in Bell Labs or Berkeley (forget which, doesn't matter both were necessary for the success of unix).. But I mean look at the main CsSci colleges then, Berkeley was quite liberal, and MIT had Noam Chomsky :) You could also consider unix a standard, DOS isn't just IBM, it ran on Apple ]['s, with a similar command syntax (yet quite different..) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: COSIMA Subject: Re: AOL/Compuserve? Date: Wed Jan 29 00:51:52 CST 1997 Message number: 112 Reply to message number: unavailable C>C> i'll check it out. my family has an AO-hell membership, and there was som C>FE> C>FE> Your a liar... There is no such thing as a AOHELL membership... AOHELL i C>FE> addon program for AOL... Sorry d00d... C>S> C>S> I think they ment aol, and didnt know about the stupid AHOLEE program.. l C>S> they were kinda slamin aol, or soemthing C>* C>yup, i was joking...remember 'humor'? or is that something people don't get, C>these days...i was definitely 'kinda' slamming AOL. it'll be interesting to I went through this same discussion somewhere else.. "Pull the leg" oh well, anyway, did you see the compuserve commercial on the super bowl with the busy line, and there new number is 1-888-not-busy? hehehe I love it --- þ QMPro 1.53 þ When the sun rises from the West watch out... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: THE INVISIBLE MAN Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Wed Jan 29 00:51:53 CST 1997 Message number: 113 Reply to message number: unavailable TIM>TI> If you can spare 100 megs of HD space, get linux, no if's and's or TIM>TI> It's one of the better things that'll happen to you. TIM>FE> TIM>FE> Tell me more about it... Is it anything like UNIX? TIM> "Is it anything like unix" ? Linux is unix.. There is no one true unix TIM>despite what people say :) tell that to unisis.. --- þ QMPro 1.53 þ Dammit, Jim, I'm a doctor, not a doc...oh. Yeah. Sorry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: po' folk Date: Wed Jan 29 03:48:07 CST 1997 Message number: 114 Reply to message number: 107 TD> offerred money, but let's just take that as an example... if that were MY s TD> that was shot and killed that kind of money would never be put up by any TD> federal/state agency to find the killer.... But just because Bill Cosby is TD> rich and powerful man (and in my opinion those two words are equations in t TD> country) they offer this kind of reward to find his son's killer. I'm sorr TD> but I just can't agree with you on this one... there is a caste system here TD> but we just don't classify it as such... * TD, i will now say it ver-r-r-r-r-y slowly....listen up, dear (i say it kindly) DR was *kidding*. kidding. joking. sarcastic. cynical. not serious. get it? *humor*. it's OK. hang around for while, you'll catch on. -c-c-c-c-c-c-c- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Starfox Subject: Re: AOL/Compuserve? Date: Wed Jan 29 03:51:13 CST 1997 Message number: 115 Reply to message number: 112 S> I went through this same discussion somewhere else.. "Pull the leg" oh S> well, anyway, did you see the compuserve commercial on the super bowl S> with the busy line, and there new number is 1-888-not-busy? hehehe I S> love it * i asked someone with a Cserve email address about their prices. they're still charging $20/ 10 hrs, and then $.90/hr after that-- so the reason their phone lines are free is because it would still be possible to run up a couple hundred dollars a month if you were online a couple hours a day. there's no excuse for paying hourly charges when all the major internet servers are charging one price for unlimited access, these days. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE Subject: Re: po' folk Date: Wed Jan 29 12:37:09 CST 1997 Message number: 116 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Tazmanian Devilette : TD> Poor people will still buy things... even if they have to get them TD> used, they will have the things that their kids see if they can get TD> them.. one way or another... some poor people can hardly afford to eat TD> in this country. And some poor people even get desperate enough to steal, it really is a shame. That's why we need to teach morals in the schools, so that kids grow up knowing the difference between right and wrong. Better to die starving, as an honest corpse, than to live your life as a thieving puke scumbucket! TD> America is the richest country in the world, but we TD> have homeless and straving people littering our streets. (I suppose TD> "littering" is a poor choice of words, but you get the gist) No, actuallty it creates a vivid mental picture ... and gives me an *excellent* idea. The way to solve the homeless problem is to just rewrite the city ordinances to define moneyless, purposeless street urchins as litter. Then, we can just send the streetsweepers out after them. Hooray for progress! TD> of the cold.. Our government seems to have enough money to send food, TD> arms and whatever else over-seas, but yet, can't seem to take care of TD> our own people. And what's more important, defending our interests in Saudi Arabia and Westy Germnany, or feeding people too lazy to feed themselves? You see, it all depends on how you define the question. If you ask people if they think the homeless should be fed, they'll say yes. But if you ask them to give up their third helping of roast beef for some shiftless, dirty street bum, they'll say no. The problem with you liberals is, you assume all these people *deserve* to be fed and cared for, and don't ever stop to think that a good deal of them just want to be there in the gutter. TD> killer.... But just because Bill Cosby is a rich and powerful man (and TD> in my opinion those two words are equations in this country) they offer TD> this kind of reward to find his son's killer. In all seriousness, I think it has less to do with class than ratings. TV foks don't give a shit how rich Cosvy is, they want ratings. Famous people's kids get ratings. The cops, similarly, don't really care who Cosby is. They just know that they'll be judged on *this case*, not the 100 other murders that they run into each day, because this case will be broadcast over the media. They slip up, it's all over the TV. Thus, they bust their ass not to make any mistakes. ... "The dawn of the 3rd age of mankind is... jee, look at the time!" -JMS ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: THE INVISIBLE MAN Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Wed Jan 29 12:37:12 CST 1997 Message number: 117 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting The Invisible Man : TIM> main CsSci colleges then, Berkeley was quite liberal, and MIT had Noam TIM> Chomsky :) You could also consider unix a standard, DOS isn't just TIM> IBM, it ran on Apple ]['s, with a similar command syntax (yet quite TIM> different..) Speaking of Noam Chomsky, he'll be speaking at Hamline in a month or two, in regards to the Goya "Disasters of War" presentation I and some others will be working on. I can grab the date and time, if anyone's interested. ... Clinton supporters know how the American Indians felt. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE To: All Subject: previous posts Date: Wed Jan 29 08:35:20 CST 1997 Message number: 118 Reply to message number: unavailable Sorry... I get a little over-zealous re: this point. It makes me very angry that so many people really believe that there isn't that kind of thing "goind on in America" Hmmm... I will add another point, tho... I'm currently seeking employment and I called a temp agency recently because of an ad they had in the paper, only to be told that they didn't hire people who have to ride the bus to work... now whaddya think of that? Isn't that some sort of descrimination? The guy I talked to said that really they "were just trying to be courteous" because the people who have cars can get to the job sights easier than people who ride buses, so they get first dibs on the jobs... and trying not to waste our time. I asked him if this is written policy, and he said no... I wonder what I could do about that??? Anyone? Anyone? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Wed Jan 29 09:20:34 CST 1997 Message number: 119 Reply to message number: 118 TD> Sorry... I get a little over-zealous re: this point. It makes me very angr TD> that so many people really believe that there isn't that kind of thing "goi With a couple of exceptions, you are among friends here. I am furious right now, because on the Geraldo show today, the subject is "People who commit suicide and take others with them." Geralso is treating every person who does this as a sicko who somehow wants to take out their sickness on others. I know, and I think that you know, that there has been an increase in the numbers of women who are committing suicide and taking their kids with them out of desperation. They are receiving little help in this world, and the mother knows that without her, there is also little future available for the children. TD> on in America" Hmmm... I will add another point, tho... I'm currently TD> seeking employment and I called a temp agency recently because of an ad the TD> had in the paper, only to be told that they didn't hire people who have to TD> ride the bus to work... now whaddya think of that? Isn't that some sort of I worked as a temp for 5 years. I also encountered this, but on the other end. They often called me to work in the 'burbs in industrial parke for 2nd and 3rd shifts, where there WERE no buses. Sometimes it seemed that they were doing this deliberately, because I know that they had a lot of jobs available ob\n bus lines. TD> trying not to waste our time. I asked him if this is written policy, and h TD> said no... I wonder what I could do about that??? Anyone? Anyone? The first thing I would do is sign up with other temp agencies. There are many of them, and some of them are actually nice. You might also call the State Department of Human Rights and ask about the discrimination question. On the surface, I agree with you that it looks discriminatory, but I have found out that the law often does not include things like economic status as elements of discrimination. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Wed Jan 29 12:37:11 CST 1997 Message number: 120 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Tazmanian Devilette : TD> Sorry... I get a little over-zealous re: this point. It makes me TD> very angry that so many people really believe that there isn't that TD> kind of thing "goind on in America" Don't worry about it, no big deal. On the other hand, though, I don't believe that it's fair to classify America as a caste society, or indeed try to explain how "minorities" and lower to middle class people are treated in our country in any formal terms. Racism, sexism and economic discrimination are often subtle, and therefore very easy to ignore. So, when you try to call America a "caste" society, many people will understandably recoil ... ... Jesus saves, Allah protects, Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: po' folk Date: Wed Jan 29 14:22:17 CST 1997 Message number: 121 Reply to message number: 107 TD> In Mpls alone... look at all the homes that are boarded TD> and condemed, most of which have only to pay the water bill to get them bac TD> in use again... and yet, we have homeless people dying in the streets becau TD> of the cold.. I agree with you, TD, there is a "caste" system (though it isn't quite as rigid as the old Hindu system of ages past and present). Some of my friends chide me for being so "class-conscious"; I can explain anything in terms of somebody's socio-economic status. I just call 'em as I see 'em. The reason I quoted you is that I remembered some years ago hearing about a small group of people in Mpls. who would help homeless people break into abandoned homes, set up pirate utility feeds, and let them live in relative luxury for a time. Does anybody else remember this, and if so, whatever happened to them? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Froggy Subject: Re: castes Date: Wed Jan 29 14:26:37 CST 1997 Message number: 122 Reply to message number: 110 TD> I'm trying dear... read the previous post to this one, re: this :) F> As soon as you figure out that our hearts are with you and that the F> are talking sarcastically, you will understand. :) Hey, c'mon, Froggy. She knows our hearts are with her (or at least she knows mine is with her...sigh...). As for Daedalus, he's perfectly aware that thirty people patting each other on the back does not make for an especially interesting read. Get into the spirit of it, man! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: po' folk Date: Wed Jan 29 14:36:38 CST 1997 Message number: 123 Reply to message number: 116 DR> You see, it all depends on how you define the question. If you ask people DR> if they think the homeless should be fed, they'll say yes. But if you DR> ask them to give up their third helping of roast beef for some shiftless, DR> dirty street bum, they'll say no. The problem with you liberals is, you DR> assume all these people *deserve* to be fed and cared for, and don't ever DR> stop to think that a good deal of them just want to be there in the DR> gutter. My theatre guru once said that I have exactly the proper mental makeup to become a street person by my 50th birthday; I'm mostly impractical, I have very few marketable skills, and I enjoy playing around with words and pondering the immortal questions of existence. I really think he intended to compliment me, and warn me about the direction the country was going with respect to people like me. When I was young, it seemed that life was so wonderful, A miracle, oh it was beautiful, magical, And all the birds in the trees, well they'd be singing so happily, Joyfully, playfully watching me. But then they sent me away, to teach me how to be sensible, Logical, responsible, practical, And then they showed me a world where I could be so respectable, Clinical, intellectual, cynical. There are times when all the world's asleep The questions run too deep For such a simple man Won't you please, please tell me what we've learned? I know it sounds absurd, But please tell me who I am. --Supertramp, "The Logical Song" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Wed Jan 29 14:46:25 CST 1997 Message number: 124 Reply to message number: 118 TD> I'm currently TD> seeking employment and I called a temp agency recently because of an ad the TD> had in the paper, only to be told that they didn't hire people who have to TD> ride the bus to work... now whaddya think of that? Isn't that some sort of TD> descrimination? WHAT!? What kind of spoon-fed, puree-d, s**t are these people dishing out? TD, go to another agency, perhaps a respectable one. These people would just take advantage of you anyway. I say this because I temped for two summers and didn't own a car for a single day of it, and I never had trouble getting assignments. Heck, there's a tiny little unemployment rate out there right now, and businesses are desperate for people. Now that I think about it, the only time in my life that I did have a car, I worked at a liquor store that was two blocks from my mom's house, where I was living at the time, so I haven't ever really needed a car to work. An intelligent employer will realize when a talented worker needs some slack on scheduling for occasions like this. TD> The guy I talked to said that really they "were just tryin TD> to be courteous" because the people who have cars can get to the job sights TD> easier than people who ride buses, so they get first dibs on the jobs... an TD> trying not to waste our time. Just because they kill you with kindness doesn't mean it isn't murder. TD> I asked him if this is written policy, and he TD> said no... Of course it isn't a written policy, because it's ILLEGAL! The HR person where I work once told me that she isn't allowed to ask how someone is planning to get to work, because in some of the states our company does business in, it is a violation of discrimination laws to do so. (To be honest, I don't know if MN is one of those states.) If you tried to sue, they'd just deny it and laugh you out of court. The best thing you can do is get a job with other people and go back and rub their noses in it later--"you could have had the Employee of the Year, 1997, but you were afraid of my bus pass!" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Thu Jan 30 09:07:42 CST 1997 Message number: 125 Reply to message number: 117 DR> Speaking of Noam Chomsky, he'll be speaking at Hamline in a month or two, DR> in regards to the Goya "Disasters of War" presentation I and some others DR> will be working on. I can grab the date and time, if anyone's interested. I would like to see him, a friend of mine gets to go all the way to Madison to see him (unless it's linguistics related :) )... grr. What was this presentation about? I'd love to see it, where exactly *is* hamline? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: THE INVISIBLE MAN Subject: Re: iPentiumPro-200 Date: Thu Jan 30 13:30:37 CST 1997 Message number: 126 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting The Invisible Man : DR> Speaking of Noam Chomsky, he'll be speaking at Hamline in a month or two DR> in regards to the Goya "Disasters of War" presentation I and some others DR> will be working on. I can grab the date and time, if anyone's interested. TIM> What was this presentation about? He'll be speaking on war, in regards to Goya's presentation of the Peninsular War in his "Disasters of War" series of engravings. We'll be setting up a web page with more details, should be done by the end of February ... TIM> I'd love to see it, where exactly *is* hamline? Directly south of the State Fair grounds, within walking distance in decent weather. ... It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: email Date: Thu Jan 30 14:02:28 CST 1997 Message number: 127 Reply to message number: 104 DR> I had two emails which I lost in the past day or two, basically due to DR> the combination of NyQuil, a head cold and an offline mail packet ... DR> for the same reason, I can't even remember what they were or who they DR> were from, so if you're one of the piqued emailers that's my best version DR> of an excuse :-) One was probably from me, as you haven't answered it in email format, but no big deal, you answered my question somewhere else. Assuming one of them was me, thanks for this. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: All Subject: NEW GROUP!!! Date: Thu Jan 30 14:41:22 CST 1997 Message number: 128 Reply to message number: unavailable Wanna join a kewl new group? Hacking/Cracking/virii <-- Only for learning Ethereal Thoughts is for you if you know your shit... tuff application I will admit... But its all worth it... Some stuff we have produced.. "The Invisible Key" "Frontdoor as a backdoor" other kewl stuff... remember we are new at this.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THROCKMORTON To: FROGGY Subject: Re: po' folk Date: Sat Feb 01 12:39:59 CST 1997 Message number: 129 Reply to message number: unavailable F> Some of that boarded-up housing is also closed because of code >violations because the housing is old and newer building codes have been put >in place that prevent low-income people from buying it. An example is that >won a HUD bid to byu a nice small farm house once. It was in decent shape, >except that the previous tenant had moved out leaving the water to the toile >on. The plastic feed line froze and burst. Bankers and lenders would not le >me the money to buy the property because they claimed that it had "no modern >bathroom." I asked HUD to allow me to enter the house and repair the feed >line, which would have taken 5 minutes. They wouldn't allow it. So, I lost >the property, and a person who could pay cash in full bought it, because the >did not need the bankers. This is the kind of crap that needs to be fixed >before there can be real fairness. By any chance were you trying to get financing through one of the larger banks? When I bought my house the larger banks down here told me I would have to get a construction loan to fix up the house and then get a mortgage to pay off the construction loan. A smaller, local bank took a look at the house and went "Yeah, it's worth what you want to pay. When do you want to sign the mortgage." --- þ OLX 1.53 þ Roadkill on the information superhighway ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THROCKMORTON To: ALL Subject: What denomination is you Date: Sat Feb 01 12:40:00 CST 1997 Message number: 130 Reply to message number: unavailable Loosely paraphrased from something I read recently. What denomination is your computer? If you use a Mac it is Catholic. Very catechismal with everything all laid out for you. Just follow the steps in sequence and everything will be all right. If you use DOS it is protestant, more specifically the dour Scottish Calvinistic protestantism. Knowing that no matter how hard one tries success is not guaranteed. You are constantly skating one the thin edge of disaster with the OS waiting for you to make a mistake so it can crash. If you use Window it is Anglican. Nice big fancy cathedral, but you always have the possibility of falling back into DOS. --- þ OLX 1.53 þ I used to have a life, now I have a modem ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Throckmorton Subject: Re: What denomination is you Date: Sat Feb 01 13:51:41 CST 1997 Message number: 131 Reply to message number: 130 T> What denomination is your computer? T> FUNNY!!! With some shades of truthfulness. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: po' folk Date: Tue Feb 04 03:02:45 CST 1997 Message number: 132 Reply to message number: 116 DR> In all seriousness, I think it has less to do with class than ratings. DR> TV foks don't give a shit how rich Cosvy is, they want ratings. Famous DR> people's kids get ratings. The cops, similarly, don't really care DR> who Cosby is. They just know that they'll be judged on *this case*, not DR> the 100 other murders that they run into each day, because this case DR> will be broadcast over the media. They slip up, it's all over the TV. DR> Thus, they bust their ass not to make any mistakes. While it may be true that they are under alot of pressure to solve this case and not have any screw-ups, that still doesn't explain the amounts of money offered to find the killer, in my opinion. They could solve this case on their own merits, but I guess that says something for them, doesn't it? What merits? Many murder cases are not solved.... go figure! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE To: Froggy Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Tue Feb 04 03:04:29 CST 1997 Message number: 133 Reply to message number: 119 F> question. On the surface, I agree with you that it looks discriminatory, bu F> I have found out that the law often does not include things like economic F> status as elements of discrimination. And again... this should surprise you? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Tue Feb 04 03:07:19 CST 1997 Message number: 134 Reply to message number: 120 DR> On the other hand, though, I don't believe that it's fair to classify DR> America as a caste society, or indeed try to explain how "minorities" and DR> lower to middle class people are treated in our country in any formal DR> terms. Racism, sexism and economic discrimination are often subtle, and DR> therefore very easy to ignore. So, when you try to call America a "caste" DR> society, many people will understandably recoil ... Oh I agree with you there... it's not a "caste society" as the term is classified, but there is a system of descrimination, which in itself, is more like a caste system than most people believe. Everyone is NOT equal in this country, even tho "they" would have us believe it's so. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: po' folk Date: Tue Feb 04 03:17:13 CST 1997 Message number: 135 Reply to message number: 121 I realize that many people who live in the streets, do so voluntarily. My g/f's dad does in the summer and in the winter moves to a nursing home. He would rather have his money for liquor than to pay rent, and therefore lives in the streets for approx 6 months out of the year. There are also many people that live in the streets that do so, because there is no other way. With the welfare reforms over the years, have come policies of no longer giving monies to adults, without children, so therefore all they qualify for is food stamps (that is, they have an address) and medical. Now these (especially the medical) can add up to quite a bit of cost to the taxpayers, but just for instance: say this person has been fired or laid-off from their job... and as a result, could not pay the rent, etc. They lose their home, and in many cases are too proud to apply for general assistance, which won't give them money to help them stay in a new place... they will provide you with help for the security deposit, but without a job, you can't get a place to live, and general assistance will no longer help with your monthly rent if you're a single person with no family. What are your choices? You can only stay in a homeless facility for so long, and many employers are loathe to hire you knowing such a thing. You can work for daily labor, but seriously, that's not a REAL job... and what if you have physical problems that prevent you from working at any kind of labor that you have to bend or lift anything? I'm not saying that everyone out there deserves or even wants help, but what about the ones that do... again the old adage comes into place... "One bad apple ruins the rest"... Not fair, in my opinion, but whoever said life was fair? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Tue Feb 04 03:19:07 CST 1997 Message number: 136 Reply to message number: 124 However, I would like to report these people to someone... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Tue Feb 04 04:59:30 CST 1997 Message number: 137 Reply to message number: 133 F> question. On the surface, I agree with you that it looks discriminatory, bu F> I have found out that the law often does not include things like economic F> status as elements of discrimination. TD> TD> And again... this should surprise you? No. You asked the question, and I was telling ou about some of my experience. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Tue Feb 04 05:02:28 CST 1997 Message number: 138 Reply to message number: 134 DR> On the other hand, though, I don't believe that it's fair to classify DR> America as a caste society, or indeed try to explain how "minorities" and TD> Oh I agree with you there... it's not a "caste society" as the term is TD> classified, but there is a system of descrimination, which in itself, is mo TD> like a caste system than most people believe. Everyone is NOT equal in thi TD> country, even tho "they" would have us believe it's so. Yes, but the difference is in honesty. Some other societies have rigid and clear caste systems. This country is two-faced about it, claiming that "all men are equal," when they are not. . . . and then there are women and children. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Tue Feb 04 06:07:23 CST 1997 Message number: 139 Reply to message number: 134 TD> Oh I agree with you there... it's not a "caste society" as the term is TD> classified, but there is a system of descrimination, which in itself, is mo TD> like a caste system than most people believe. Everyone is NOT equal in thi TD> country, even tho "they" would have us believe it's so. * you really think 'they' (whoever they are) try to make 'us' believe that everyone is equal? money = power-- and anyone who doesn't have it, knows they're absolutely not as 'equal' as some others. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: po' folk Date: Tue Feb 04 06:09:48 CST 1997 Message number: 140 Reply to message number: 135 TD> I realize that many people who live in the streets, do so voluntarily. My * are you serious? people live in the streets or in squats because they have nowhere else to go. sure, they might live in the streets rather than being stuck in an institution or halfway house, but that's the lesser of two evils, not a 'choice.' saying that people 'choose' to live in the streets is like saying, ok, how do you want to die...gas chamber or bullet in the brain? and then when the person says, oh, shoot me and get it over with, saying, 'that person CHOSE to die.' -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Cosima Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Tue Feb 04 13:36:20 CST 1997 Message number: 141 Reply to message number: 139 C> you really think 'they' (whoever they are) try to make 'us' believe that C> everyone is equal? money = power-- and anyone who doesn't have it, knows C> they're absolutely not as 'equal' as some others. Yes. It is a sort of a new thing, because I was raised to appreciate the fact that there are people who are more well-off than others. But lately, opinion seems to have turned to victim blaming -- claiming that there *is* equal opportunity for all to do well, and that those who haven't are obviously at fault and not to be sympathized with. They must either be too lazy and not willing to work, or inferior in some other way. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Froggy Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Wed Feb 05 03:18:59 CST 1997 Message number: 142 Reply to message number: 141 F> Yes. It is a sort of a new thing, because I was raised to apprecia F> the fact that there are people who are more well-off than others. But latel F> opinion seems to have turned to victim blaming -- claiming that there *is* F> equal opportunity for all to do well, and that those who haven't are F> obviously at fault and not to be sympathized with. They must either be too F> lazy and not willing to work, or inferior in some other way. * this is true, but i find this attitude to stem way back from my grandparents' days- the old 'pull yourself up by your own bootstraps' philosophy. my mom will still say about people, 'if they wanted to get a job, they could get a job.'-- and she's right--any human on the planet can be making $6/hr doing *something* right now. the only problem with that is, as you've stated, a person can easily make that as a full-time wage and still not be able to make the rent, much less transportation, food or child care. * it's sad. when i was a kid, peoples' parents supported their families doing things like retail jobs. the jobs were enough to get peoples' bills paid. and people who grew up like that purely don't get it that these jobs are no longer good for anyone but a part-time job for a school kid or someone else who has someone else to pay the real bills. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Cosima Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Wed Feb 05 03:47:53 CST 1997 Message number: 143 Reply to message number: 142 C> it's sad. when i was a kid, peoples' parents supported their families doing C> things like retail jobs. the jobs were enough to get peoples' bills paid. an C> people who grew up like that purely don't get it that these jobs are no long C> good for anyone but a part-time job for a school kid or someone else who has I agree. I think one of the problems is that older people are stuck on the fact that they were raised during thr Depression and think that that was the ultimate deprivation and there are no others today. They also do not realize the wealth of things that helped them economically but no longer apply, like the GI Bill, as you have said, more effective use of their dollars, REAL insurance that actually paid for tragedies instead of soaking up premiums for years and then denying coverage when the tragedy occurs, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Cosima Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Wed Feb 05 17:10:09 CST 1997 Message number: 144 Reply to message number: 142 C> job.'-- and she's right--any human on the planet can be making $6/hr doing C> *something* right now. the only problem with that is, as you've stated, a C> person can easily make that as a full-time wage and still not be able to mak C> the rent, much less transportation, food or child care. There's another difference worth noting here too, I think. That difference is the way you're treated at a job - how the employer acts towards you, the type of benefits you get, and your opportunity for real advancement. When I work a shit job, I know I won't be working there forever. I'm just working the shit job while going to school; I'll get out of there eventually. But for someone who works there for a living, I have to wonder - how much shit should they have to put up with to make $6 or $7 an hour? It's not just the money, it's the working conditions and the way you're treated ... and more subtly, how long you're going to be stuck in the shit job. Anyone wonder where our work ethic is going? We all got spoiled on halfway decent jobs, and still haven't reconciled our lowered expectations to the new economic order. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Wed Feb 05 19:48:26 CST 1997 Message number: 145 Reply to message number: 144 DR> There's another difference worth noting here too, I think. That difference DR> the way you're treated at a job - how the employer acts towards you, the ty DR> of benefits you get, and your opportunity for real advancement. DR> It is obvious to me where it has already gone. There is an assumption by people who have the strings to pull that they have the right to do whatever they want, and their employees can like it or lose the job. This also extends into areas of sexual harassment and disability discrimination too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Froggy Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Thu Feb 06 03:13:47 CST 1997 Message number: 146 Reply to message number: 143 F> I agree. I think one of the problems is that older people are stuc F> on the fact that they were raised during thr Depression and think that that F> was the ultimate deprivation and there are no others today. They also do no F> realize the wealth of things that helped them economically but no longer F> apply, like the GI Bill, as you have said, more effective use of their F> dollars, REAL insurance that actually paid for tragedies instead of soaking F> premiums for years and then denying coverage when the tragedy occurs, etc. * this is absolutely true. my mom talks about how hard it was when they were first starting out as a married couple, but the fact is that the minute she had me- actually, before that- she never had an income-generating job again, and they were able to buy a house- a *new* house- when my dad got his first job- which he got because the GI bill paid for his tuition to business college. it's a different animal all the way around, these days, but this is still the generation of republicans (for the most part) who think people are 'lazy' if they are homeless or unemployed. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Thu Feb 06 03:15:59 CST 1997 Message number: 147 Reply to message number: 144 DR> When I work a shit job, I know I won't be working there forever. I'm just DR> working the shit job while going to school; I'll get out of there eventuall DR> But for someone who works there for a living, I have to wonder - how much DR> shit should they have to put up with to make $6 or $7 an hour? It's not jus DR> the money, it's the working conditions and the way you're treated ... and m DR> subtly, how long you're going to be stuck in the shit job. DR> DR> Anyone wonder where our work ethic is going? We all got spoiled on halfway DR> decent jobs, and still haven't reconciled our lowered expectations to the n DR> economic order. * excellent point! my 2 younger sisters work temp- and they walk off jobs if something pisses them off. i never did that even at shit jobs while i was in school-- there's something else at work here. our consciousness has been raised- we think we shouldn't *have* to put up with that kind of treatment- but then when it's all you can get, you're really in a rough place. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Cosima Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Thu Feb 06 04:43:43 CST 1997 Message number: 148 Reply to message number: 146 F> I agree. I think one of the problems is that older people are stuc F> on the fact that they were raised during thr Depression and think that that F> was the ultimate deprivation and there are no others today. They also do no F> realize the wealth of things that helped them economically but no longer C> this is absolutely true. my mom talks about how hard it was when they were C> first starting out as a married couple, but the fact is that the minute she C> had me- actually, before that- she never had an income-generating job again, C> and they were able to buy a house- a *new* house- when my dad got his first C> job- which he got because the GI bill paid for his tuition to business C> college. it's a different animal all the way around, these days, but this is C> still the generation of republicans (for the most part) who think people are C> 'lazy' if they are homeless or unemployed. So we are the boomers who have witnessed this and understand at least part of what has happened. Your family is almost identical to mine. Mother worked while Daddy was in the service and after he returned until he had completed school courtesy of the GI bill. Then she continued to work, basically because she wanted to. My grandmother kept me when school was off, so there was no child care cost. Then my parents built their own new house, also courtesy of the GI Bill. One of my arguments to all of these judgemental Republican types is to restore all the benefits that *THEY* received and see who surfaces as lazy and spoiled today. received and see who surfaces as lazy and spoiled today. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Cosima Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Thu Feb 06 04:52:25 CST 1997 Message number: 149 Reply to message number: 147 C> excellent point! my 2 younger sisters work temp- and they walk off jobs if C> something pisses them off. i never did that even at shit jobs while i was in C> school-- there's something else at work here. our consciousness has been C> raised- we think we shouldn't *have* to put up with that kind of treatment- C> but then when it's all you can get, you're really in a rough place. There also used to be more motivation to behave differently. There was a time when it made sense to bite the bullet, hang in, and if you paid your dues, eventually you would be in a better position with more salary. But, in, I would say, the last 20 years, the attitude has changed. I was asked to work a double shift on a temp job once. The supervisor was desperate, saying that she had asked everyone and all the other employees and temps had refused. If she could not cover this shift, her company would lose the contract. So I stayed. Later, when she hired 2 new employees, I asked her why she hadn't hired me, because I thought that I had demonstrated that I would be a reliable and loyal employee. She said that I had been PAID, hadn't I? That was my reward for working that extra shift. If I had it to do over, I would do what your sisters do and walk. As it was, I got my revenge when I watched one of these new employees repeatedly not come to work and not call in. And the supervisor didn't DARE ask me to stay and cover for him. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Cosima Subject: Re: po' folk Date: Fri Feb 07 15:41:58 CST 1997 Message number: 150 Reply to message number: 140 TD> I realize that many people who live in the streets, do so voluntarily. My C> are you serious? people live in the streets or in squats because they have C> nowhere else to go. sure, they might live in the streets rather than being She said many, you are implying all. I _know_ several people are homeless by their own will, many of them excentric science majors of some sort. (Normally computer or electrical engineering) Now this is no way near the norm, it certainly is an isolated phenomena. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE To: Cosima Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Sat Feb 08 03:37:12 CST 1997 Message number: 151 Reply to message number: 139 C> you really think 'they' (whoever they are) try to make 'us' believe that C> everyone is equal? money = power-- and anyone who doesn't have it, knows C> they're absolutely not as 'equal' as some others. Oh, but then we can all vote, so that makes us equal, and we have all have freedom of speech, but then there are those that are killed because of their political affiliations... Yes.. I do believe that "they" try to make us believe that we should think that we're all equal... even tho we all know it really isn't true... yes money = power... period... that's around the world, not just here... :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE To: Cosima Subject: choice Date: Sat Feb 08 03:46:27 CST 1997 Message number: 152 Reply to message number: 140 C> are you serious? people live in the streets or in squats because they have C> nowhere else to go. sure, they might live in the streets rather than being C> stuck in an institution or halfway house, but that's the lesser of two evils C> not a 'choice.' saying that people 'choose' to live in the streets is like C> saying, ok, how do you want to die...gas chamber or bullet in the brain? and C> then when the person says, oh, shoot me and get it over with, saying, 'that C> person CHOSE to die.' I hate to dissolusion you... but there really are people that choose to live in the streets... especially alcoholics (and I would assume some drug addicts) some do it just because of something bad that happened to them and feel that they deserve to live there... Ok... case in point: My girlfriends father, is a hard-core alcoholic. He only chooses to live in a nursing home in the winter (which for him is usually about 4 - 6 months, depending on the weather). During the warmer months, he lives in the street, so that he doesn't have to "waste" his money on rent and other commodities like that, so that he has it all to spend on booze. I'm sure that if he lived in a part of the country where the weather remains warm most of the time, he would NEVER go to any kind of shelter, etc... and would continue to live in the streets year-round, in order to support his habit. He doesn't want to stop drinking, and there is nothing anyone can do to help him... even when he is at the nursing home, he buys booze and hides the bottles under rocks and in bushes, because he's not allowed to have it in the home, but you know, he goes for walks and gets his bottle and drinks from it outside then returns to the home again... He walks or has someone get the booze for him at a liquor store that is probably 4 or 5 miles away... (as a matter of fact, when we had him here during the holidays we stopped at that liquor store on the way... the clerks knew him by name). This man CHOOSES to live in the streets.... He isn't made to, and could just as easily stay at the nursing home year-round... So YES.... some do chose to live there on their own. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: choice Date: Sat Feb 08 05:22:09 CST 1997 Message number: 153 Reply to message number: 152 C> nowhere else to go. sure, they might live in the streets rather than being C> stuck in an institution or halfway house, but that's the lesser of two evils C> not a 'choice.' saying that people 'choose' to live in the streets is like TD> I hate to dissolusion you... but there really are people that choose to liv TD> in the streets... especially alcoholics (and I would assume some drug TD> addicts) some do it just because of something bad that happened to them and TD> feel that they deserve to live there... TD> Isn't that making a choice? It is entirely different from the many thousands of people who are living on the streets because they have ABSOLUTELT no other option.I think a lot of people here would agree that there are , and always have been people like your friend's father, who simply want to remain independent and keep their addiction, no matter what else it costs. He does have a choice, which is to kick his drinking and use the money to pay rent -- if he can find rent low enough. Other people, including their children, have no choices at all. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Sun Feb 09 08:53:36 CST 1997 Message number: 154 Reply to message number: 151 TD> Oh, but then we can all vote, so that makes us equal, and we have all have TD> freedom of speech, but then there are those that are killed because of thei TD> political affiliations... Yes.. I do believe that "they" try to make us TD> believe that we should think that we're all equal... even tho we all know i TD> really isn't true... yes money = power... period... that's around the world TD> not just here... :) ** you think voting makes us 'equal'? wish i did...and as far as the freedom of speech thing goes, it's sort of like that 'if the tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it' line...if nobody cares about or listens to your voice, then having the freedom to bullshit like mad doesn't count for much... -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: choice Date: Sun Feb 09 08:57:25 CST 1997 Message number: 155 Reply to message number: 152 TD> I hate to dissolusion you... but there really are people that choose to liv * first, you can't 'dissolusion' me, since i'm still solid, having not dissolved yet. if you're talking about 'disillusion'ing me, i don't think painting a picture of an old drunk who's sick enough to live on the streets is doing anything for my 'illusions.' i'm just sick of the people who say that people 'could do something' about their situations 'if they wanted to.' for the most part, sane people do not choose to be homeless or live in squats if there are other human or affordable alternatives. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Cosima Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Sun Feb 09 12:07:47 CST 1997 Message number: 156 Reply to message number: 154 C> having the freedom to bullshit like mad doesn't count for much... I don't know. I think that the people of the just recently freed USSR may disagree with you about that. They were afraid that there were KGB ears everywhere, and very careful what they said to whom. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Cosima Subject: Re: choice Date: Sun Feb 09 12:12:02 CST 1997 Message number: 157 Reply to message number: 155 C> painting a picture of an old drunk who's sick enough to live on the streets C> doing anything for my 'illusions.' i'm just sick of the people who say that C> people 'could do something' about their situations 'if they wanted to.' for C> the most part, sane people do not choose to be homeless or live in squats if C> there are other human or affordable alternatives. I think that you and I may feel the same way about it. While there may be an occasional person here and there who chooses to live on the street, it is distressing to see people use it as an excuse to not help those who truly need help. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: COSIMA Subject: Re: choice Date: Sun Feb 09 16:43:10 CST 1997 Message number: 158 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Cosima : Co> 'if they wanted to.' for the most part, sane people do not choose to Co> be homeless or live in squats if there are other human or affordable Co> alternatives. -=c=- Living in a barn was good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for the rest of us too. The problem is, we just expect too much today. We expect a roof over our heads, food in our bellies and the right to complain if the mattress isn't soft enough. I say, quit reaching for the stars and you'll never be disappointed. ... The worst thing about censorship is . ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Froggy Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Mon Feb 10 01:00:58 CST 1997 Message number: 159 Reply to message number: 156 F> I don't know. I think that the people of the just recently freed F> USSR may disagree with you about that. They were afraid that there were KGB F> ears everywhere, and very careful what they said to whom. * yes, i know. as i wrote that, i realized that the only reason i *could* say that is that i was saying it as part of a free country. it's funny- we can say whatever we want about politics, but try to say whatever we want about sexuality and a bunch of senators will try to shut you down. it's also funny, that the *government* allows a person to have freedom of speech, but one's family, employers, schools, peers, don't at ALL. there's a very carefully-monitored set of acceptable verbal things by which a person is judged- and employed by, or graded by. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Froggy Subject: Re: choice Date: Mon Feb 10 01:02:07 CST 1997 Message number: 160 Reply to message number: 157 F> I think that you and I may feel the same way about it. While there F> may be an occasional person here and there who chooses to live on the F> street, it is distressing to see people use it as an excuse to not help thos F> who truly need help. * exactly. it's too easy to be judgmental from inside our own warm apartments. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE To: Froggy Subject: Re: choice Date: Mon Feb 10 03:35:40 CST 1997 Message number: 161 Reply to message number: 153 TD> I hate to dissolusion you... but there really are people that choose to liv TD> in the streets... especially alcoholics (and I would assume some drug TD> addicts) some do it just because of something bad that happened to them and TD> feel that they deserve to live there... TD> F> Isn't that making a choice? It is entirely different from the many F> thousands of people who are living on the streets because they have ABSOLUTE F> no other option.I think a lot of people here would agree that there are , an F> always have been people like your friend's father, who simply want to remain F> independent and keep their addiction, no matter what else it costs. He does F> have a choice, which is to kick his drinking and use the money to pay rent - F> if he can find rent low enough. Other people, including their children, hav F> no choices at all. Isn't that what I said? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE To: Cosima Subject: equality Date: Mon Feb 10 04:19:49 CST 1997 Message number: 162 Reply to message number: 154 C> you think voting makes us 'equal'? wish i did...and as far as the freedom of C> speech thing goes, it's sort of like that 'if the tree falls in the forest a C> nobody hears it' line...if nobody cares about or listens to your voice, then C> having the freedom to bullshit like mad doesn't count for much... C> -=c=- Actually dear, this time I was being facetious... I don't really believe that malarky, I was commenting re: the "they" factor and what we are asked to believe.... :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE To: Cosima Subject: Re: choice Date: Mon Feb 10 04:23:06 CST 1997 Message number: 163 Reply to message number: 155 C> first, you can't 'dissolusion' me, since i'm still solid, having not C> dissolved yet. if you're talking about 'disillusion'ing me, i don't think C> painting a picture of an old drunk who's sick enough to live on the streets C> doing anything for my 'illusions.' i'm just sick of the people who say that C> people 'could do something' about their situations 'if they wanted to.' for C> the most part, sane people do not choose to be homeless or live in squats if C> there are other human or affordable alternatives. C> -=c=- Ooops sorry for the spelling error... sometimes, I'm thinking more about the content ahead of me, rather than the content I'm writing at the moment, and spelling isn't always on my mind.... And I agree with you... I don't automatically however label him with "insanity" but rather with "sickness"... of course if I was drunk 24 hours/7 I guess I wouldn't be thinking too clearly either... :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: choice Date: Mon Feb 10 07:00:42 CST 1997 Message number: 164 Reply to message number: 161 TD> I hate to dissolusion you... but there really are people that choose to liv TD> in the streets... especially alcoholics (and I would assume some drug TD> addicts) some do it just because of something bad that happened to them and TD> feel that they deserve to live there... TD> F> if he can find rent low enough. Other people, including their children, hav F> no choices at all. TD> TD> Isn't that what I said? Your tone suggests that you are focusing on the few people who choose to live on the street, where Cosima, others and I are trying to make it clear that *MOST* people who are living on the street do not have a choice. It is a fine point, but, unfortunately, a lot of people are using the fact that an ocasional wino chooses to drink rather than pay rent as an excuse to deny all homeless and near-homeless people. /s ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: choice Date: Mon Feb 10 07:07:32 CST 1997 Message number: 165 Reply to message number: 163 C> the most part, sane people do not choose to be homeless or live in squats if C> there are other human or affordable alternatives. C> -=c=- TD> TD> automatically however label him with "insanity" but rather with "sickness". TD> of course if I was drunk 24 hours/7 I guess I wouldn't be thinking too clea TD> either... :) Alcoholics Anonymous does. They say that if continued, alcoholism results in insanity or death. It looks like he has continued it for quite a while. It makes me sad. Many members of my family have been like this, and unable to get the help they needed to sober up and be happy. Also, the latest literature from the mental health professionals describes addiction as a "disorder." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Cosima Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Mon Feb 10 09:25:24 CST 1997 Message number: 166 Reply to message number: 159 `CO> it's funny- we can say CO> whatever we want about politics, I say we all go out and kill the president. I'll get the bullets, Cosima, you send him mail and warn him so he can make out his will and stuff. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE To: Froggy Subject: Re: choice Date: Sat Feb 15 04:56:42 CST 1997 Message number: 167 Reply to message number: 164 F> Your tone suggests that you are focusing on the few people who F> choose to live on the street, where Cosima, others and I are trying to make F> clear that *MOST* people who are living on the street do not have a choice. F> It is a fine point, but, unfortunately, a lot of people are using the fact F> that an ocasional wino chooses to drink rather than pay rent as an excuse F> to deny all homeless and near-homeless people. /s Actually, I was playing the devil's advocate here... I know all those things... I'm just also making a point that there are SOME that do make that choice... I know that the majority are not making that choice and don't have the choice... I've been homeless before... and lived on the streets... And to put it bluntly, had alot of sex with people I didn't really want to, in order to have a roof over my head for a night... I think the hardest part for a person might be, that they have a job, but not enough money coming in at once to be able to afford an apartment or living quarters, what with the rent and deposit, and possibly a last months rent all to be had at once in order to be able to to move into a place... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TAZMANIAN DEVILETTE To: Froggy Subject: Re: choice Date: Sat Feb 15 05:00:30 CST 1997 Message number: 168 Reply to message number: 165 F> Alcoholics Anonymous does. They say that if continued, alcoholism F> results in insanity or death. It looks like he has continued it for quite a F> while. It makes me sad. Many members of my family have been like this, and F> unable to get the help they needed to sober up and be happy. Also, the late F> literature from the mental health professionals describes addiction as a F> "disorder." That's true... however this is a person who doesn't WANT help and to tell the truth wouldn't welcome it.. he would have nothing else to live for, if it wasn't the booze... It's a shame and yes I feel sorry for him too in a way, because he WON'T get help... and he could... But I beleive he has great guilt re: how he treated his family in the past... my friend learned how to be like him growing up... It's all very complicated and hard to explain... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: choice Date: Sat Feb 15 05:52:35 CST 1997 Message number: 169 Reply to message number: 167 TD> to have a roof over my head for a night... I think the hardest part for a TD> person might be, that they have a job, but not enough money coming in at on TD> to be able to afford an apartment or living quarters, what with the rent an TD> deposit, and possibly a last months rent all to be had at once in order to TD> able to to move into a place... And unfortunately, the way things are set up now, the income that they do have is used against them when they ask for help. This is one reason why people are unwilling to accept many minimum wage jobs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: choice Date: Sat Feb 15 05:53:58 CST 1997 Message number: 170 Reply to message number: 168 F> Alcoholics Anonymous does. They say that if continued, alcoholism F> results in insanity or death. It looks like he has continued it for quite a TD> TD> That's true... however this is a person who doesn't WANT help and to tell t TD> truth wouldn't welcome it.. he would have nothing else to live for, if it That's insanity. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Sat Feb 15 10:17:22 CST 1997 Message number: 171 Reply to message number: 166 DR> `CO> it's funny- we can say CO> whatever we want about politics, DR> I say we all go out and kill the president. I'll get the bullets, Cosima, DR> you send him mail and warn him so he can make out his will and stuff. The Secret Service may come after you, but I think you'd find a surprising amount of right-wing assistance in hiding from them. If you thought we should go out and pop Newt, nobody would be willing to help (though I think more people would be willing to see it done: "will no one rid me of these bothersome princes!?") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: choice Date: Sat Feb 15 10:23:23 CST 1997 Message number: 172 Reply to message number: 167 F> Your tone suggests that you are focusing on the few people who F> choose to live on the street, where Cosima, others and I are trying to make F> clear that *MOST* people who are living on the street do not have a choice. TD> Actually, I was playing the devil's advocate here... It's nice to see that. I'd say Daedalus likes to play the devil's advocate, too, but I think he'd correct me and say he was playing the devil's lawyer. But from playing the advocate, it is obvious that the position is absurd, isn't it? I mean, just because a couple of F-16s crash without explanation doesn't mean the Air Force is going to throw them all out. Just because one person of the opposite gender refuses to have a relationship with you, that doesn't mean you dismiss the entire gender, does it? And yes, there are some people out there who, if you give them a chance to, will do their best to take advantage of you, whether you are an individual or a government. If it wasn't possible to take advantage of government, then it wouldn't be doing anything. And wealthy people take far more advantage than poor people--capital gains tax cuts, lowered percentages for high-income tax brackets, subversion of labor laws and unions, ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: choice Date: Sat Feb 15 12:49:59 CST 1997 Message number: 173 Reply to message number: 172 DT> a government. If it wasn't possible to take advantage of government, then DT> wouldn't be doing anything. And wealthy people take far more advantage tha DT> poor people--capital gains tax cuts, lowered percentages for high-income ta DT> brackets, subversion of labor laws and unions, ... Even more so since 1980. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Tazmanian Devilette Subject: Re: choice Date: Mon Feb 17 05:37:41 CST 1997 Message number: 174 Reply to message number: 167 TD> put it bluntly, had alot of sex with people I didn't really want to, in ord TD> to have a roof over my head for a night... I think the hardest part for a * sounds like most marriages to me. i see these abused women talking on talk shows (OK, the shows are trash, i know, and mostly bullshit, but STILL...) and these women continue to go back to assholes who abuse them. why? because they're scared- and they don't have the tools to make their own living. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: choice Date: Mon Feb 17 05:40:56 CST 1997 Message number: 175 Reply to message number: 172 DT> It's nice to see that. I'd say Daedalus likes to play the devil's advocate DT> too, but I think he'd correct me and say he was playing the devil's lawyer. * DT> doesn't mean the Air Force is going to throw them all out. Just because on DT> person of the opposite gender refuses to have a relationship with you, that DT> doesn't mean you dismiss the entire gender, does it? * what did i miss here? who was supposed to have said that? * -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: DAVE THE LUCKY Subject: Re: previous posts Date: Mon Feb 17 11:21:57 CST 1997 Message number: 176 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Dave The Lucky : DR> I say we all go out and kill the president. I'll get the bullets, Cosim DR> you send him mail and warn him so he can make out his will and stuff. DTL> The Secret Service may come after you, but I think you'd find a DTL> surprising amount of right-wing assistance in hiding from them. Where would I get assistance in hiding from the right-wingers, then? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: DAVE THE LUCKY Subject: Re: The Advocae Date: Mon Feb 17 11:21:58 CST 1997 Message number: 177 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Dave The Lucky : DTL> It's nice to see that. I'd say Daedalus likes to play the devil's DTL> advocate, too, but I think he'd correct me and say he was playing the DTL> devil's lawyer. Who's playing? I don't very well appreciate your tone, nor the way you are insinuating that the devil is incapable of springing to his own defense. As we speak, sir, papers are being drawn up! ... If Christ loved & forgave people, why can't Christians? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: FROGGY Subject: Re: choice Date: Tue Feb 18 18:31:33 CST 1997 Message number: 178 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Froggy to Dave The Lucky <=- DT> a government. If it wasn't possible to take advantage of government, the DT> wouldn't be doing anything. And wealthy people take far more advantage t DT> poor people--capital gains tax cuts, lowered percentages for high-income DT> brackets, subversion of labor laws and unions, ... Fr> Fr> Even more so since 1980. Odd that this country really seemed to go into the tank ever since 1980? Violent drug related crime went up. Drugs like cocaine became cheaper and more available on the streets. The inner-city crumbled. The nation's debt soared. It just seemed to get worse in this country. Too many people point to the 60's as the point of decline, but I see the 80's as being a point where we really began to go in some bad directions. ... Creationism: collectively pissing on science to see if it drowns. ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Sandman Subject: Re: choice Date: Wed Feb 19 02:17:23 CST 1997 Message number: 179 Reply to message number: 178 S> Too many people point to the 60's as the point of decline, but I S> see the 80's as being a point where we really began to go in some S> bad directions. S> I think that 2 distinctly different things happened in each decade. The 60's were jarred by the 3 assassinations that seemed to move the country into believing that it was not necessary to respect leaders and try to work with them to build a better country. If you don't agree with them, just shoot them. The 1980s were marked by the fixation on ME. All that matters is MY job, MY family, MY bank balance, etc. Everyone else can take care of himself, and if he can't, that it too bad. So, in the 1960s we began to distrust authority and in the 1980s we began to distrust EVERYONE. Both were destructive, but the latter is by far the most destructive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: SANDMAN Subject: Re: The 60s Date: Thu Feb 20 16:55:47 CST 1997 Message number: 180 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Sandman : Sa> Too many people point to the 60's as the point of decline, but I Sa> see the 80's as being a point where we really began to go in some Sa> bad directions. Too late, methinks. I think that the real problems began in the early 70s, when the SUN-PAC supreme court decision legalized the modern Political Action Committee. This corrupted the politicians. The biggest jolt, though, was to the economy. The oil crisis dramatically raised prices ... and since our country's economy is based on oil, inflation shot up. This was at the same time that the Great Society & Vietnam-related inflation began catching up with us (as Johnson didn't raise taxes or bonds to pay for the war), and we got the double-digit inflation of the 70s. The only way to cure this was through a severe recession, so the Federal Reserve managed one ... and Reagan rode the angry tide into office. Once there, the already browbeaten worker got further pummelled by his pro-business administration and the corporate-sponsored congress. Yeah, it's simplistic, but it's history in 300 words or less. :-) ... The worst thing about censorship is . ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: The 60s Date: Thu Feb 20 22:13:48 CST 1997 Message number: 181 Reply to message number: 180 DR> Too late, methinks. I think that the real problems began in the early DR> 70s, when the SUN-PAC supreme court decision legalized the modern DR> Political Action Committee. This corrupted the politicians. DR> This is all very true, but I think that a lot would be different if the public had not changed its attitude toward the government in the 60s. As of that time, there has been little cooperation and no respect for leaders, making it very difficult for them to work. For one example, the Whitewater fiasco, Starr, and spending 30 million dollars would not have happened in 1955.Some of the earlier presidents did have spotty personal lives and questionable dealings, but the public tended to just ignore these things as long as they could do the job. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: FROGGY Subject: Re: choice Date: Fri Feb 21 20:10:01 CST 1997 Message number: 182 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Froggy to Sandman <=- Fr> The 1980s were marked by the fixation on ME. All that Fr> matters is MY job, MY family, MY bank balance, etc. Everyone else can Fr> take care of himself, and if he can't, that it too bad. So, in the Fr> 1960s we began to distrust authority and in the 1980s we began to Fr> distrust EVERYONE. Both were destructive, but the latter is by far Fr> the most destructive. And now in the 90's we seem to be going back to the distrust of authority (Waco, Rubyridge, NWO BS, Ok city). Only this it is the Right pushing the mistrust. The circle continues. ... First there was the Word, and the fundamentalists misunderstood it. ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: FROGGY Subject: Re: The 60s Date: Mon Feb 24 16:10:41 CST 1997 Message number: 183 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Froggy : DR> Too late, methinks. I think that the real problems began in the early DR> 70s, when the SUN-PAC supreme court decision legalized the modern DR> Political Action Committee. This corrupted the politicians. Fr> This is all very true, but I think that a lot would be Fr> different if the public had not changed its attitude toward the Fr> government in the 60s. As of that time, there has been little Fr> cooperation and no respect for leaders, making it very difficult for Fr> them to work. Yes, it's true that in the 60s people tended to distrust authority. And yes, it's true that the right has taken up the cause in the 90s, making it hard to get anything done. But if the government had been honest in the 60s, we wouldn't have this problem. If Johnson and McNamara hadn't lied to the media, lied to activists like you, and lied to all the soldiers dying in Vietnam, then we wouldn't have this severe cycle of stupidity today. There's is a solution, though. When we stop electing frauds like Senator Grams and President Clinton, stop letting apologists like Colin Powell and Secratary of Defense Cohen run the military, and stop giving the commercial media unfettered access to our public airwaves (and crowing out democratic discussion), then maybe people will start trusting the government again. Because the government is, in the end, us. ... Money can't buy happiness, but allows a choice of misery. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: All Subject: Education... Date: Sat Apr 05 06:51:07 CST 1997 Message number: 184 Reply to message number: unavailable So I got all my responses back from colleges now. Harvard turned me down, Northwestern University offered to put me on their waiting list (read turned me down, about 1 person in 10 by my estimate gets in from the waiting list and they don't inform you if you got in until June 15, well after college acceptance responses have to be in... Putting all your eggs in one basket to try the waiting list) But Boston University accepted me into their Honors Program, and has so far offered me a half tuition University Scholarship, so that's where I'll be going next school year... :) I won't be around here though to continue these interesting conversations after the end of summer... :( ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Education... Date: Sat Apr 05 08:53:13 CST 1997 Message number: 185 Reply to message number: 184 S> that's where I'll be going next school year... :) I won't be around here S> though to continue these interesting conversations after the end of summer.. That's too bad. I'll miss you. Catch up when you breeze through town. S> Northwestern University offered to put me on their waiting list (read turned S> me down, about 1 person in 10 by my estimate gets in from the waiting list a I dunno. If you are really interested, sometimes a well-written appeal letter can help at this point. S> acceptance responses have to be in... Putting all your eggs in one basket t S> try the waiting list) But Boston University accepted me into their Honors S> Program, and has so far offered me a half tuition University Scholarship, so S> that's where I'll be going next school year... :) I won't be around here Sounds like a good idea. Be aware that the cost of living -- food, rent, etc., is very high in Boston, too. How is the school with your major? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: All Subject: Gays Date: Sat Apr 05 15:00:56 CST 1997 Message number: 186 Reply to message number: unavailable I was recently at a friends house when I saw a Anti-Gay program. In this program the main guy (dunno who he was) said that all gays should be put to death. He quoted a bible verse in Leveitcus stating that they should be killed. What is the opinion of the general public? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 05 15:37:20 CST 1997 Message number: 187 Reply to message number: 186 FE> death. He quoted a bible verse in Leveitcus stating that they should be FE> killed. What is the opinion of the general public? Leviticus says a lot of things. I would ask the man quoting it if he believes in and obeys ALL of it, or just selects verses that he personally agrees with. It makes an interesting read, and sets forth a very difficult way of life. I also believe that being homosexual is not a sin, and is not a capital crime. Our society needs more love and understanding for each other. That would go a lot farther than that man's bile. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 05 17:38:57 CST 1997 Message number: 188 Reply to message number: 186 If you are looking for my opinion it is that all people are equal. I have many gay\lesbian\bi friends. Almost more than I do straight friends. I have absolutly no problem with what ever they choose as a lifestyle. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 06 07:00:21 CDT 1997 Message number: 189 Reply to message number: 187 F> Leviticus says a lot of things. I would ask the man quoting it if F> believes in and obeys ALL of it, or just selects verses that he personally Excellent point. I myself do not think that homosexuality should be accepted among the general public. It is (after all) wrong. It is not natural and should not be accepted. But I still don't htink they should be killed. I was talking to someone else who saw this, he said that in the New testement when Jesus came along he changed a lot of those old laws (or explained them better anyways) I don't know what he bases his answer on so I won't go into it a great deal since I cannot back it up. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Starfire Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 06 07:01:18 CDT 1997 Message number: 190 Reply to message number: 188 S> If you are looking for my opinion it is that all people are equal. I have S> many gay\lesbian\bi friends. Almost more than I do straight friends. I hav S> absolutly no problem with what ever they choose as a lifestyle. People are equal, but (even though I know a few gays) it is still not right, it is wrong for them to be homosexual but if they can help it or not is not for me to judge. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Education... Date: Sun Apr 06 07:06:01 CDT 1997 Message number: 191 Reply to message number: 185 F> That's too bad. I'll miss you. Catch up when you breeze through F> town. Thanks, I will definitely catch up. but I still have until the end of summer. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Education... Date: Sun Apr 06 07:10:44 CDT 1997 Message number: 192 Reply to message number: 185 S> Northwestern University offered to put me on their waiting list (read turned S> me down, about 1 person in 10 by my estimate gets in from the waiting list a F> F> I dunno. If you are really interested, sometimes a well-written F> appeal letter can help at this point. Sorry, I saved that last one too fast. Actually I am really interested, Northwestern was my school of choice. An appeal letter? Just writing in and appealing to be accepted on whatever grounds? Interesting. F> Sounds like a good idea. Be aware that the cost of living -- food, F> rent, etc., is very high in Boston, too. How is the school with your major? Yeah, very expensive... I am aware of the costs so I will be living as cheaply as possible, no major expenses, eating school food, living in a dorm, etc. On the upside, Boston University students get into the Museum of Fine Arts for free, so there's a savings on entertainment. As for my major, they're pretty good. When I first looked at them I was looking for schools for engineering, but now I'm looking at English so I don't know the full caliber of their English department, reasonable I'd assume, they have vast numbers of programs and what I've seen of the many programs they do have is very good. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 06 07:12:53 CDT 1997 Message number: 193 Reply to message number: 186 FE> I was recently at a friends house when I saw a Anti-Gay program. In this FE> program the main guy (dunno who he was) said that all gays should be put to FE> death. He quoted a bible verse in Leveitcus stating that they should be FE> killed. What is the opinion of the general public? Um, totally against that belief... I'd rather ignore that verse of the Bible if it supports killing people. My general attitude towards gays is that they should be treated like everyone else, with respect and kindness. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 06 07:14:47 CDT 1997 Message number: 194 Reply to message number: 187 F> capital crime. Our society needs more love and understanding for each other F> That would go a lot farther than that man's bile. Most certainly... More love, less hate... Doesn't that seem like a reasonable desire? Apparantly not as so very many people seem to prefer the hate. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 06 08:10:58 CDT 1997 Message number: 195 Reply to message number: 189 F> Leviticus says a lot of things. I would ask the man quoting it if F> believes in and obeys ALL of it, or just selects verses that he personally FE> FE> I was talking to someone else who saw this, he said that in the New testeme FE> when Jesus came along he changed a lot of those old laws (or explained them Here is an interesting example: Leviticus and other OT books are very specific in the requirements they set down for animal sacrifices -- a bird for this and a first-born ram for that. Jesus eliminated all sacrifices because he said he WAS the blood sacrifice. I haven't heard a good explanation from the Jews why rhey no longer sacrifice either. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 06 08:13:29 CDT 1997 Message number: 196 Reply to message number: 190 FE> People are equal, but (even though I know a few gays) it is still not right FE> it is wrong for them to be homosexual but if they can help it or not is not FE> for me to judge. That also depends. Are you defining homosexual as a person who has affectionate feelings toward the same sex or someone who acts on them? If affectionate feelings are "unnatural," why is there so much male interest in athletes? Personally, I think THAT is unnatural. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Education... Date: Sun Apr 06 08:14:05 CDT 1997 Message number: 197 Reply to message number: 191 S> Thanks, I will definitely catch up. but I still have until the end of S> summer. Good. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Education... Date: Sun Apr 06 08:18:26 CDT 1997 Message number: 198 Reply to message number: 192 F> I dunno. If you are really interested, sometimes a well-written F> appeal letter can help at this point. S> S> Actually I am really interested, Northwestern was my school of choice. An S> appeal letter? Just writing in and appealing to be accepted on whatever S> grounds? Interesting. S> S> looking for schools for engineering, but now I'm looking at English so I don S> know the full caliber of their English department, reasonable I'd assume, th S> have vast numbers of programs and what I've seen of the many programs they d S> have is very good. I am sure that you probably know that Northwestern is outstanding for English and journalism. I'll talk to you more in e-mail. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 06 08:20:00 CDT 1997 Message number: 199 Reply to message number: 194 F> capital crime. Our society needs more love and understanding for each other F> That would go a lot farther than that man's bile. S> S> Most certainly... More love, less hate... Doesn't that seem like a reasonab S> desire? Apparantly not as so very many people seem to prefer the hate. Jesus thought so too. Isn't it odd that so many of his "followers" seem to be so invested in hate? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Specter Subject: Re: Education... Date: Sun Apr 06 15:36:49 CDT 1997 Message number: 200 Reply to message number: 184 S> that's where I'll be going next school year... :) I won't be around here S> though to continue these interesting conversations after the end of summer.. S> :( Congrats. Us college kids are allowed more wiggle-room. Just be sure to call back when you're here on break. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 06 16:07:19 CDT 1997 Message number: 201 Reply to message number: 189 FE> I myself do not think that homosexuality should be accepted among the gener FE> public. It is (after all) wrong. It is not natural and should not be accept FE> But I still don't htink they should be killed. * what do you mean 'after all'? what if someone said all whites/men/jews/ (or whatever you happen to be) are 'wrong'? and as far as 'not natural', why would you think that you're the standard for what 'natural' is? it sure must be 'natural' for the millions of gay people on the planet. i don't happen to be gay, but i sure know the difference between criminal activity (involving someone against their will, or a minor) and personal preference. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 07 12:03:19 CDT 1997 Message number: 202 Reply to message number: 193 S> Um, totally against that belief... I'd rather ignore that verse of the Bibl S> if it supports killing people. My general attitude towards gays is that the S> should be treated like everyone else, with respect and kindness. Are you disreguarding that fact that it's wrong? Or do you just want to always look the other way? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 07 12:06:23 CDT 1997 Message number: 203 Reply to message number: 195 F> Here is an interesting example: Leviticus and other OT books are F> very specific in the requirements they set down for animal sacrifices -- a F> bird for this and a first-born ram for that. Jesus eliminated all sacrifice F> because he said he WAS the blood sacrifice. I haven't heard a good F> explanation from the Jews why rhey no longer sacrifice either. :) I find Jews to be quite odd, I myself am Lutheran. I checked out the Leviticus thing and it has a ton of weird stuff in it... Including the verse the guy was talking about. It only mentions men and not women, which I imagine Women were far 2 important to bother mentioning in the book. (Sorry people that's just the way things were back then) Did you know that the reason you always see the sons names in the bible is because the daughters were not though of as important enough to mention? They (some of them, and im not sure the ratio) thought that if there wives had daughters that either the wives were wicked or they were being punished? Weird huh? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 07 12:07:19 CDT 1997 Message number: 204 Reply to message number: 196 F> That also depends. Are you defining homosexual as a person who has F> affectionate feelings toward the same sex or someone who acts on them? If F> affectionate feelings are "unnatural," why is there so much male interest in F> athletes? Personally, I think THAT is unnatural. Wow, i dunno which I am defining.. I guess both, more towards those who act on them though. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Cosima Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 07 12:08:44 CDT 1997 Message number: 205 Reply to message number: 201 C> what do you mean 'after all'? what if someone said all whites/men/jews/ C> (or whatever you happen to be) are 'wrong'? and as far as 'not natural', why C> would you think that you're the standard for what 'natural' is? it sure must C> be 'natural' for the millions of gay people on the planet. i don't happen to C> be gay, but i sure know the difference between criminal activity (involving C> someone against their will, or a minor) and personal preference. It's wrong, and should not be looked upon as normal. Normal is what was in the beginning men and Women, then we got this Gay, Lesbian stuff... What's with that? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 07 13:44:23 CDT 1997 Message number: 206 Reply to message number: 202 S> Um, totally against that belief... I'd rather ignore that verse of the Bibl S> if it supports killing people. My general attitude towards gays is that the S> should be treated like everyone else, with respect and kindness. FE> FE> Are you disreguarding that fact that it's wrong? Or do you just want to alw FE> look the other way? I agree with him, and I am not convinced that it is wrong. I know that a lot of people like to believe that it is and use the Bible to justify it, but as far as I have seen in the real world, most gays are made that way by God and have no more choice about their sexual identities than you are I. And I do not remember anyone asking me if I wanted to be a man or a woman. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 07 14:08:49 CDT 1997 Message number: 207 Reply to message number: 203 FE> I find Jews to be quite odd, I myself am Lutheran. I checked out the Leviti FE> thing and it has a ton of weird stuff in it... Including the verse the guy FE> talking about. It only mentions men and not women, which I imagine Women we Yup. So it is appropiate to ask such bigots if they obey it all, isn't it? Interestingly, the same sequence of about 25 verses also tells men not to sleep with their maidservants or their neighbors' wives. We KNOW that all good judgmental Christians do not follow these verses, don't we? Neither do they take a ram to temple on the next Sabbath to atone for it. Seems to me that Jesus had it right - - "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone." FE> I find Jews to be quite odd So did Jesus. :) FE> Did you know that the reason you always see the sons names in the bible is FE> because the daughters were not though of as important enough to mention? Th No, that isn't exactly true. It is true that the ancient Jews were a paternal society and allowed more benefits for men than for women. However, in other weird ways, they valued women a lot. For eaxmple, they were required to marry in tribes. The Levites were the priests and rabbis. But if a man was a Levite and wanted his son to be able to be a priest, he must marry a Levite woman. Such tribal identity could also be carried down through the women. The name Miriam, was not a name, but a Levite title that basically meant "priestess." Mary, mother of Jesus was a Levite, who was given her name (title) from her grandmother Miriam, who was a priestess in the House of David. In the New Testament, you see allusions of her importance in such statements as the angel's "God has found favor in you." In reality, Mary's role was much more important then Joseph's, because according to Jewish tradition and belief, the Messiah would arise from the House of David. FE> (some of them, and im not sure the ratio) thought that if there wives had FE> daughters that either the wives were wicked or they were being punished? We FE> huh? Actually, this is a mistake made by a lot of people who do not know or respect the other culture. There was at least one sect of ancient Jews who considered a woman a virgin until she had given birth to a son. She might have seven daughters, but was still considered a virgin until she had borne a son. Gives "Behold! A virgin shall bear a child, and His name shall be called Jesus," a whole new meaning, doesn't it? FE> talking about. It only mentions men and not women, which I imagine Women we FE> far 2 important to bother mentioning in the book. (Sorry people that's just Actually, women were talked about a lot. At least one of the Judges was a woman. There were about 13 books that had a lot of material about women, especially Mary, that were removed from the Bible by one or more Vatican Councils in about the 3rd Century AD. Wonder what they were afraid of. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 07 14:13:21 CDT 1997 Message number: 208 Reply to message number: 205 FE> It's wrong, and should not be looked upon as normal. Normal is what was in FE> beginning men and Women, then we got this Gay, Lesbian stuff... What's with FE> that? Sexuality among humans is not a two way street. It is actually a bell curve, with bisexuals favoring men on one side and bisexuals favoring women on the other side. They compose the majority of the curve, with the small band of committed heterosexuals in the middle. If you are defining them as "normal," that means that the only ones you consider normal are the minoroty, and the majority is either gay or bi. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Education... Date: Mon Apr 07 15:19:43 CDT 1997 Message number: 209 Reply to message number: 198 F> I am sure that you probably know that Northwestern is outstanding f F> English and journalism. I'll talk to you more in e-mail. Yeah, I do... I've only paid attention to it later, so I don't have all the information. E-mail... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 07 15:21:25 CDT 1997 Message number: 210 Reply to message number: 199 F> Jesus thought so too. Isn't it odd that so many of his "followers" F> seem to be so invested in hate? Yes, it is very interesting. In all seriousness, I haven't been able to figure out how the followers of a man who said something to the effect of love thy neighbor every page could be so very spiteful and filled with hate. Especially the ones who claim to be the most "religious" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Education... Date: Mon Apr 07 15:22:26 CDT 1997 Message number: 211 Reply to message number: 200 DR> Us college kids are allowed more wiggle-room. Just be sure to call back DR> when you're here on break. During break I'll probably live here, reading all the oldest messages from first to last. Don't worry I'll be back. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 07 15:29:49 CDT 1997 Message number: 212 Reply to message number: 202 FE> Are you disreguarding that fact that it's wrong? Or do you just want to alw FE> look the other way? One, if it came down to it, if I thought it was wrong no I wouldn't look the other way, but I would never hate nor be unloving towards them... Christ advised love for everyone, even one's enemies, the people who should be most likely to be hated or despised. Being loving and respectful doesn't require looking the other way. Two, I don't think it's wrong, and I do think it's natural for them... There are dozens of species in the world who have members who are regularly homosexual in practice. Bonobo apes consider part of daily activity, a way of demonstrating mutual affection and building greater bonds. And none of these animals can reason so it's most definitely natural for them, I don't see why humans can't be operating under the same natural laws... Oh yeah, you write as if it were some assumed, mutually agreed on law everywhere that homosexuality is wrong... I assume you've realized that not everyone considers it so, particularly here. Adjust your writing to fit, if you want a logical discussion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 07 15:32:11 CDT 1997 Message number: 213 Reply to message number: 205 FE> It's wrong, and should not be looked upon as normal. Normal is what was in FE> beginning men and Women, then we got this Gay, Lesbian stuff... What's with FE> that? I don't understand what you're saying... then we got this Gay, lesbian stuff... Never forget that homosexuality was an accepted part of many cultures both primitive and so called cultured. i.e. Tribes in Africa, and the ancient Greeks (Socrates and friends) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 07 15:34:03 CDT 1997 Message number: 214 Reply to message number: 208 F> Sexuality among humans is not a two way street. It is actually a F> bell curve, with bisexuals favoring men on one side and bisexuals favoring F> women on the other side. They compose the majority of the curve, with the F> small band of committed heterosexuals in the middle. If you are defining th F> as "normal," that means that the only ones you consider normal are the F> minoroty, and the majority is either gay or bi. An interesting thought... eh? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 07 16:14:10 CDT 1997 Message number: 215 Reply to message number: 210 F> Jesus thought so too. Isn't it odd that so many of his "followers" F> seem to be so invested in hate? S> S> Yes, it is very interesting. In all seriousness, I haven't been able to figu S> out how the followers of a man who said something to the effect of love thy S> neighbor every page could be so very spiteful and filled with hate. S> Especially the ones who claim to be the most "religious" It depends on which disciples they are placing the most faith in. I, Personally, love the synoptic Gospels, especially Matthew. They contain the most direct observations and quotations from Jesus himself. It seems to me that most of the most judgmental people are what I call "Paulians," which usually pisses them off, and they quote something from Acts or Romans to show how inferior I am. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 07 16:17:03 CDT 1997 Message number: 216 Reply to message number: 212 FE> Are you disreguarding that fact that it's wrong? Or do you just want to alw FE> look the other way? S> S> natural for them... There are dozens of species in the world who have S> members who are regularly homosexual in practice. Bonobo apes consider part Then there are the species who are either hermaphroditic or asexual. Figure out which of these is "unnatural." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 07 16:18:45 CDT 1997 Message number: 217 Reply to message number: 214 F> Sexuality among humans is not a two way street. It is actually a F> bell curve, with bisexuals favoring men on one side and bisexuals favoring F> women on the other side. They compose the majority of the curve, with the F> small band of committed heterosexuals in the middle. If you are defining th F> as "normal," that means that the only ones you consider normal are the F> minoroty, and the majority is either gay or bi. S> S> An interesting thought... eh? Especially since it is the God-given truth. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 08 16:52:26 CDT 1997 Message number: 218 Reply to message number: 206 F> I agree with him, and I am not convinced that it is wrong. I know F> that a lot of people like to believe that it is and use the Bible to justify F> it, but as far as I have seen in the real world, most gays are made that way F> by God and have no more choice about their sexual identities than you are I. F> And I do not remember anyone asking me if I wanted to be a man or a woman. I can see your point, I think that it is being taken far 2 easily and people are not even trying to stop it now. I heard once (from a older person) that we are all inbred (You know the Adam & Eve thingy) and that Gays brains are affected by this inbreeding... That the genes are tainted or something weird like that... I'm not saying I think it's right or that I don't think it is, It's just another little something I heard... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 08 16:59:46 CDT 1997 Message number: 219 Reply to message number: 207 F> Yup. So it is appropiate to ask such bigots if they obey it all, F> isn't it? Interestingly, the same sequence of about 25 verses also tells me F> not to sleep with their maidservants or their neighbors' wives. We KNOW tha F> all good judgmental Christians do not follow these verses, don't we? Neithe F> do they take a ram to temple on the next Sabbath to atone for it. Seems to F> that Jesus had it right - - "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone Are you saying I'm a biggot? F> So did Jesus. :) Now, This I don't understand, Was Jesus not of the Jewish religion? I though that he was Jewish but didn't agree with some of their way... Why was Jesus hung on a cross with the words "King Of The Jews" when he wasn't even Jewish? Or was he... You kinda got me confused. F> No, that isn't exactly true. It is true that the ancient Jews were F> paternal society and allowed more benefits for men than for women. However, F> in other weird ways, they valued women a lot. For eaxmple, they were requir F> to marry in tribes. The Levites were the priests and rabbis. But if a man F> was a Levite and wanted his son to be able to be a priest, he must marry a F> Levite woman. Such tribal identity could also be carried down through the F> women. The name Miriam, was not a name, but a Levite title that basically F> meant "priestess." Mary, mother of Jesus was a Levite, who was given her na F> (title) from her grandmother Miriam, who was a priestess in the House of F> David. In the New Testament, you see allusions of her importance in such F> statements as the angel's "God has found favor in you." In reality, Mary's F> role was much more important then Joseph's, because according to Jewish F> tradition and belief, the Messiah would arise from the House of David. I can not see how Joseph was important at all... He was not the true father and as far as I know they were never TRULY married... Because after all we neer find out if Mary was always a virgin and sex was the way that they got married back then (Is that true?) F> Actually, this is a mistake made by a lot of people who do not know F> or respect the other culture. There was at least one sect of ancient Jews w F> considered a woman a virgin until she had given birth to a son. She might F> have seven daughters, but was still considered a virgin until she had borne w Now lets get something set here, I may not know the other culture but I have a certain amount of respect for all cultures. F> Actually, women were talked about a lot. At least one of the Judge F> was a woman. There were about 13 books that had a lot of material about F> women, especially Mary, that were removed from the Bible by one or more F> Vatican Councils in about the 3rd Century AD. Wonder what they were afraid F> of. :) I'm not saying your a liar or anything... But where did you get that part about the Vatican Councils removing the books???? What is a vatican Council? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 08 17:01:48 CDT 1997 Message number: 220 Reply to message number: 212 S> One, if it came down to it, if I thought it was wrong no I wouldn't look the S> other way, but I would never hate nor be unloving towards them... Christ I think it's wrong but I don't hate them, Only what they do... It's not for me to judge who is better or worse. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 08 17:02:43 CDT 1997 Message number: 221 Reply to message number: 213 S> I don't understand what you're saying... then we got this Gay, lesbian S> stuff... Never forget that homosexuality was an accepted part of many S> cultures both primitive and so called cultured. i.e. Tribes in Africa, and S> the ancient Greeks (Socrates and friends) See this is where the problem comes in... You guys are so damn far ahead of me I often times find myself lost in what your trying to get at... It sounds like your all about 200 years older then me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 08 23:34:52 CDT 1997 Message number: 222 Reply to message number: 218 FE> I can see your point, I think that it is being taken far 2 easily and peopl FE> are not even trying to stop it now. I heard once (from a older person) that FE> are all inbred (You know the Adam & Eve thingy) and that Gays brains are FE> affected by this inbreeding... That the genes are tainted or something weir FE> like that... I'm not saying I think it's right or that I don't think it is, FE> It's just another little something I heard... Just because a person is older does not mean that he knows much. Apparently this guy does not know much about genetics and inbreeding. If he did, he would wonder where all the gay relatives of the gay person were. In my opinion, many intelligent and thoughtful young people know as much about a lot of things as an older person. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 09 00:41:27 CDT 1997 Message number: 223 Reply to message number: 219 F> Yup. So it is appropiate to ask such bigots if they obey it all, F> isn't it? Interestingly, the same sequence of about 25 verses also tells me FE> Are you saying I'm a biggot? FE> No. I was talking to someone else. I am not saying that you are a bigot, but I think that there are a lot of people out there who are and are filling young people's heads with a lot of garbage. F> So did Jesus. :) FE> FE> Now, This I don't understand, Was Jesus not of the Jewish religion? I thoug FE> that he was Jewish but didn't agree with some of their way... Why was Jesus Yes, Jesus was a Jew. In fact, he was hereditarily among the "nobility" of the Jews, with his linage from both parents going back to King David. However, at that time, there was a lot of political and religious unrest and dissention among the Jews. Sect fought against sect, and some sold out to the Romans and Egyptians. Jesus ran short of patience with a lot of it, saw that a lot of the way religion was being practiced was political and selfish and not spirituat. He disagreed so thoroughly with a lot of it that he founded an entirely different religion that rejected a lot of accepted values. FE> hung on a cross with the words "King Of The Jews" when he wasn't even Jewis FE> Or was he... You kinda got me confused. He also cried out to God, saying, "Forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." They labeled him, crowned him with thorns, and sarcastically made fun of him, as mobs often do. However, in no way did they think he was the King of The Jews. For one thing, there wasn't such a thing. For another thing, although the Romans did the actual crucifixion, he was persecuted and turned over to them by Jews after being betrayed by a Jew. FE> Now, This I don't understand, Was Jesus not of the Jewish religion? I thoug Judaism was also a nationality at this time in history. FE> I can not see how Joseph was important at all... He was not the true father FE> and as far as I know they were never TRULY married... Because after all we FE> neer find out if Mary was always a virgin and sex was the way that they got FE> married back then (Is that true?) FE> Of course they were truly married. Jesus had many brothers and sisters, one of whom is thought to be his disciple, James. Whether or not you believe that Mary continued to be (or ever was) a virgin as our society defines one is the point I was talking about. There are many different definitions. If the real issue is the value of Jesus, why does whether his mother was a biological virgin or not matter at all? FE> I can not see how Joseph was important at all... He was not the true father Among other people. Matthew thought he was. For one thing, at that time, a woman who became pregnant outside of marriage was usually stoned to death. By quietly accepting Mary and marrying her, Joseph preserved her from this. Matthew also traces Jesus' genealogy back to King David, not through Mary, but through Joseph. Read Matthew 1:2 - 1:17. The most important is Matthew 1:16, which says, ". . . and Jacob, the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is to be called Christ." It is odd fora written record like this to trace such a genalogy through a person who was not the "true father." BTW, Jacob, Joseph's father was an interesting and noble cat, too. F> No, that isn't exactly true. It is true that the ancient Jews were F> paternal society and allowed more benefits for men than for women. However, F> in other weird ways, they valued women a lot. For eaxmple, they were requir F> to marry in tribes. The Levites were the priests and rabbis. But if a man F> was a Levite and wanted his son to be able to be a priest, he must marry a F> Levite woman. Such tribal identity could also be carried down through the F> women. The name Miriam, was not a name, but a Levite title that basically F> meant "priestess." Mary, mother of Jesus was a Levite, who was given her na You seem defensive. There is no reason to be, because I am not attacking you. But it is not possible to respect another culture if you do not take care to learn about it. I am not criticizing you for this, because you are asking questions and trying to learn. But many of the people who have pretended to be authorities are woefully ignorant of the things they claim they are authorities over. I have even had some of them tell me that after Jesus' birth, the Old Testament no longer counted. That is funny. As you said, Jesus was a Jew. He was given a brist (ceremonial circumcision) when he was 8 days old. The New Testament tells us that Mary found Jesus in the Temple teaching the rabbis at thirteen. He would never have even been allowed to enter the Temple if he had not been bar mitzvahed, let alone teach the rabbis. All of his life he practiced Judiaism, as defined in the Torah. He was crucified when he was practicing one of the holiest of Jewish celebrations, the Passover. It seems to me that by claiming that this no longer matters, people are sure passing over a lot that was important to Jesus. F> women, especially Mary, that were removed from the Bible by one or more F> Vatican Councils in about the 3rd Century AD. Wonder what they were afraid F> of. :) FE> FE> I'm not saying your a liar or anything... But where did you get that part FE> about the Vatican Councils removing the books???? What is a vatican Council You would have to know and read a WHOLE lot more to reasonably call me a liar in this area. I have been reading it for many years. That the early church went through many adjustments and turmoil is no secret. It is a matter of historical record. It was not until the conversion of the Roman Emperor Constantine to Christianity, that the early Christians couldquit hiding in the catacombs, publish their writings, and openly discuss what they remembered and believed. The Vatican Councils were one means they had of doing this. They were a "committee" of church leaders who met regularly to set policy about church doctrines. Part of their job in the first few centuries after Christ's death was to review all writings that were consideded inspired and decide whether or not they were canon (doctrine). In this capacity, they accepted and rejected a lot of material. They also changed their minds a few times and removed things they had formerly accepted. I have a copy of some of these books. They include books like, *The Infancy of Our Lord Jesus Christ,* *The Protanglion of Mary,* and *The Gospel of Thomas.* The Bible that we have and know has a lot of information, as I just told you about Matthew's genealogy of Joseph. But there is also a lot of writing about the historical time and life of Christ other than the Bible. Some information was written by the historians Pliny and Josephus. Other was written by the Romans or the Jews at the time, which although they are not about Jesus, they do tell a lot about the culture and politics he lived in. There is now more information being added by the translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls. This is interesting because although some have claimed that the DSS will turn Christianity on its ear, you wonder why. The Dead Sea Scrolls were intertestamental, written from 200-75 years before the birth of Christ. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 09 00:45:07 CDT 1997 Message number: 224 Reply to message number: 221 S> stuff... Never forget that homosexuality was an accepted part of many S> cultures both primitive and so called cultured. i.e. Tribes in Africa, and S> the ancient Greeks (Socrates and friends) FE> FE> See this is where the problem comes in... You guys are so damn far ahead of FE> I often times find myself lost in what your trying to get at... It sounds l FE> your all about 200 years older then me. Sometimes I feel like it. :) But you are on the right track. I rarely accept one person's opinion about a new subject. I ask other people's opinis. I look up history and read. That way I have gotten a lot of information that I otherwise wouldn't have. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 09 16:59:10 CDT 1997 Message number: 225 Reply to message number: 222 F> Just because a person is older does not mean that he knows much. F> Apparently this guy does not know much about genetics and inbreeding. If he True, although the majority of older people do know more then younger people. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 09 17:04:31 CDT 1997 Message number: 226 Reply to message number: 223 F> Of course they were truly married. Jesus had many brothers and F> sisters, one of whom is thought to be his disciple, James. Whether or not y F> believe that Mary continued to be (or ever was) a virgin as our society F> defines one is the point I was talking about. There are many different F> definitions. If the real issue is the value of Jesus, why does whether his F> mother was a biological virgin or not matter at all? Wow, you really know what you are talking about! I sit in church ever sunday and have to listen word for word (because I do radio broadcast and must be sure I get speakers on at the right times) And I never even heard that James might have been part of Jesus's family. If he truly was then wouldnt that have made him like partly God? Becuase if Mary gave birth to a god then she would kinda have had to have been half god (This is getting really weird) But do you think there is a chance that James could also have been part of a God? I really don't know how to define "part" of a God. But I think you understand what I mean. Of what religion are you? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 09 17:05:22 CDT 1997 Message number: 227 Reply to message number: 224 F> Sometimes I feel like it. :) But you are on the right track. I F> rarely accept one person's opinion about a new subject. I ask other people' F> opinis. I look up history and read. That way I have gotten a lot of F> information that I otherwise wouldn't have. Possibly in a few years I will be up with you guys, I am already starting to research some of the message I see (and post) on here! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 09 17:35:35 CDT 1997 Message number: 228 Reply to message number: 226 FE> Of what religion are you? I was raised a Baptist, and then became a Quaker. I have always been interested in Bible history and archaeology. FE> Wow, you really know what you are talking about! I sit in church ever sunda FE> and have to listen word for word (because I do radio broadcast and must be Like any other area, the more you learn, the more you will understand and remember of new stuff. And you'll catch some of the TV ministers at some of their idiocy, "He thinks that verse means WHAAAAT??" FE> made him like partly God? Becuase if Mary gave birth to a god then she woul FE> kinda have had to have been half god (This is getting really weird) But do FE> think there is a chance that James could also have been part of a God? I This is purely an issue of faith. Most Christians would not think so, because they do not consider Mary or any other family members gods. Jesus was the chosen messenger and messiah. Mary was the vessel through which he was able to enter the world as God in human form, but only Jesus is the God, and nobody else. Other religions, including those of the Greeks, Romans, and Norse religions, have the half human/half god condition you mentioned. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 09 17:36:43 CDT 1997 Message number: 229 Reply to message number: 227 FE> Possibly in a few years I will be up with you guys, I am already starting t FE> research some of the message I see (and post) on here! Uh oh! I'd better haul out the books, or you will get ahead of me. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 09 20:03:38 CDT 1997 Message number: 230 Reply to message number: 220 FE> I think it's wrong but I don't hate them, Only what they do... It's not for FE> to judge who is better or worse. *you *are* judging them, you know. why does 'what they do' threaten you so much? why should it make any difference what people do in the privacy of their own homes as long as they don't try to force you to do it? -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Thu Apr 10 15:34:56 CDT 1997 Message number: 231 Reply to message number: 215 F> It depends on which disciples they are placing the most faith in. F> Personally, love the synoptic Gospels, especially Matthew. They contain the F> most direct observations and quotations from Jesus himself. It seems to me F> that most of the most judgmental people are what I call "Paulians," which F> usually pisses them off, and they quote something from Acts or Romans to sho F> how inferior I am. Yeah, I know the type. My problem with Paul is that if all the letters really are his writing, I'm annoyed that the opinions of one person get so much attention and authority. I, too, like the Gospels, I think they're much friendlier (read loving) in general. I get the irony in quoting from Romans or Acts as a response to calling someone a "Paulian," funny, they don't get it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Thu Apr 10 15:35:55 CDT 1997 Message number: 232 Reply to message number: 216 F> Then there are the species who are either hermaphroditic or asexual F> Figure out which of these is "unnatural." All of them, gosh darn it. Those darned asexual creatures must be the creation of Satan. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Thu Apr 10 15:36:25 CDT 1997 Message number: 233 Reply to message number: 217 F> Especially since it is the God-given truth. :) Yes, especially because of that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Thu Apr 10 15:39:18 CDT 1997 Message number: 234 Reply to message number: 219 F> Actually, women were talked about a lot. At least one of the Judge F> was a woman. There were about 13 books that had a lot of material about F> women, especially Mary, that were removed from the Bible by one or more F> Vatican Councils in about the 3rd Century AD. Wonder what they were afraid F> of. :) FE> FE> I'm not saying your a liar or anything... But where did you get that part FE> about the Vatican Councils removing the books???? What is a vatican Council It's pretty open knowlege here, there's historical record of the council meeting and choosing which books to put in, and the other books exist and can be found in some places if I have my information right. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Thu Apr 10 15:41:14 CDT 1997 Message number: 235 Reply to message number: 220 FE> I think it's wrong but I don't hate them, Only what they do... It's not for FE> to judge who is better or worse. Mmm. Close connection, but I'll concede that there is a difference. But hating I would say is almost always a judgement of some form. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Thu Apr 10 15:43:08 CDT 1997 Message number: 236 Reply to message number: 221 FE> See this is where the problem comes in... You guys are so damn far ahead of FE> I often times find myself lost in what your trying to get at... It sounds l FE> your all about 200 years older then me. i just pick up things here and there. The ancient cultures stuff was in one of my textbooks somewhere, I read it by chance. The Greek bit is mentioned in several places in Plato's writing. Some things just occur by chance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Thu Apr 10 15:48:13 CDT 1997 Message number: 237 Reply to message number: 227 FE> Possibly in a few years I will be up with you guys, I am already starting t FE> research some of the message I see (and post) on here! good call. These bases have so much. In this last section of posting what I've said I'd known before here, but I've still learned a huge amount from the people around here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Thu Apr 10 18:31:25 CDT 1997 Message number: 238 Reply to message number: 231 S> Yeah, I know the type. My problem with Paul is that if all the letters real S> are his writing, I'm annoyed that the opinions of one person get so much S> attention and authority. I, too, like the Gospels, I think they're much Not only that, but I think that the authority is misplaced. Paul was a mysogynist an egotist, and he himself admitted that he was a sinner like everyone else. Someone once asked me angrily if I thought that Paul wasn't a Christian. Of course he was, because he performed the job that Jesus assigned him -- to reach out to the Gentiles. However, he was not a god himself, never claimed to be, and I think worship of him has gone too far S> attention and authority. I, too, like the Gospels, I think they're much S> friendlier (read loving) in general. S> Have you ever read "Q?" S> I get the irony in quoting from Romans or Acts as a response to calling S> someone a "Paulian," funny, they don't get it. I think a lot of these people are actually very short on actual facts and long on belief. Read that, legend. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Thu Apr 10 18:32:50 CDT 1997 Message number: 239 Reply to message number: 232 F> Then there are the species who are either hermaphroditic or asexual F> Figure out which of these is "unnatural." S> S> All of them, gosh darn it. Those darned asexual creatures must be the S> creation of Satan. :) Hmmmm. My Methodist grandmother thought that sexual creatures were created by Satan. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Thu Apr 10 18:35:28 CDT 1997 Message number: 240 Reply to message number: 234 FE> I'm not saying your a liar or anything... But where did you get that part FE> about the Vatican Councils removing the books???? What is a vatican Council S> S> It's pretty open knowlege here, there's historical record of the council S> meeting and choosing which books to put in, and the other books exist and ca S> be found in some places if I have my information right. That is true, but there are also a few books that were originally included in the Bible and accepted as canon, which were removed later. I have one Bible that contains some of them called *The Lost Books of Eden.* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Thu Apr 10 18:37:02 CDT 1997 Message number: 241 Reply to message number: 236 S> i just pick up things here and there. The ancient cultures stuff was in one S> of my textbooks somewhere, I read it by chance. The Greek bit is mentioned S> several places in Plato's writing. Some things just occur by chance. Yup. And they are additive. The more little pieces you pick up, the more other little pieces fall in place. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 04:02:14 CDT 1997 Message number: 242 Reply to message number: 228 F> was able to enter the world as God in human form, but only Jesus is the God, F> and nobody else. Other religions, including those of the Greeks, Romans, an F> Norse religions, have the half human/half god condition you mentioned. I was taught that jesus was 100% god 100% man ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 04:02:40 CDT 1997 Message number: 243 Reply to message number: 229 F> Uh oh! I'd better haul out the books, or you will get ahead of me. Don't worry... you have a few years... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Cosima Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 04:05:46 CDT 1997 Message number: 244 Reply to message number: 230 C> *you *are* judging them, you know. why does 'what they do' threaten you so C> much? why should it make any difference what people do in the privacy of the C> own homes as long as they don't try to force you to do it? when a 10 year old girl was taken from her home in 1994 (In indiana) and taken to a man's house and raped for 3 days then killed it disturbed everybody, and that man was also disturbed, cause he killed himself. The point you made was not well though of... If we didn't care what people did in the privacy of their own homes then we would not care about drug dealers who make kilo's of cocaine in their homes and then sell it to 12 year old boys on the streets of LA... The point is, what people do in their own homes (directly or indirectly) affect *ALL* of us. Like it or not, one way or another it is true. Note to froggy: I GOT THAT OUT OF A BOOK!!!!! YAHOOOO ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 04:06:42 CDT 1997 Message number: 245 Reply to message number: 234 S> It's pretty open knowlege here, there's historical record of the council S> meeting and choosing which books to put in, and the other books exist and ca S> be found in some places if I have my information right. Who says bbsing does not teach you anything... I had no idea that those books were still avalible (or even taken out in the first place) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 04:07:40 CDT 1997 Message number: 246 Reply to message number: 235 S> Mmm. Close connection, but I'll concede that there is a difference. But S> hating I would say is almost always a judgement of some form. Possibly hate was the wrong word to use, I should have said DISLIKE, We are always taught that hating is a sin, but I know of nobody who is perfect. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 04:08:18 CDT 1997 Message number: 247 Reply to message number: 236 S> i just pick up things here and there. The ancient cultures stuff was in one S> of my textbooks somewhere, I read it by chance. The Greek bit is mentioned S> several places in Plato's writing. Some things just occur by chance. I have only heard of Plato, oh yeah I played with some when I was younger. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 04:08:49 CDT 1997 Message number: 248 Reply to message number: 237 S> good call. These bases have so much. In this last section of posting what S> I've said I'd known before here, but I've still learned a huge amount from S> the people around here. I can already say that I have learned quite a bit just in the past week or two. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 07:52:12 CDT 1997 Message number: 249 Reply to message number: 238 F> Not only that, but I think that the authority is misplaced. Paul w F> a mysogynist an egotist, and he himself admitted that he was a sinner like F> everyone else. Someone once asked me angrily if I thought that Paul wasn't F> Christian. Of course he was, because he performed the job that Jesus assign F> him -- to reach out to the Gentiles. However, he was not a god himself, nev F> claimed to be, and I think worship of him has gone too far I agree. F> Have you ever read "Q?" No, I've heard portions of it, but never read it. F> I think a lot of these people are actually very short on actual fac F> and long on belief. Read that, legend. Probably, some Catholics in my World Religions class were getting into how Mary was so definitely a virgin, before and after the birth of Christ, and that she was sinless which was why she ascended into heaven. I was for a brief second annoyed at their level of conviction in stating this because as you said they were long on belief (legend) and not on actuality. One of them, a girl who I know to be way over the bounds of normality into artifacts and religious miracles was talking about how they found the cross Christ was crucified on. She was saying that she was sure they had run all sorts of tests on it to verify its authenticty, and my only thought was, what tests? I couldn't think of a single test that could prove it was Christ's. Carbon-dating? Even if miraculously they verified it to the very day of Christ's death, there were two other crosses (according to the story) that day, right next to Christ. i was, and still am actually, annoyed at her willingness to believe something that makes a nice story because some priest tells her it is true. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 07:53:38 CDT 1997 Message number: 250 Reply to message number: 239 F> Hmmmm. My Methodist grandmother thought that sexual creatures were F> created by Satan. :) How unusual... Methodist, eh? So does sexual creatures include humans? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 07:55:28 CDT 1997 Message number: 251 Reply to message number: 240 F> That is true, but there are also a few books that were originally F> included in the Bible and accepted as canon, which were removed later. I F> have one Bible that contains some of them called *The Lost Books of Eden.* Really, where could I find a Bible like that? I'm fairly familiar with mainstream Christian bookstores, because my father frequents them, but I'm almost certain none of them would have them. What's in the "Lost Books of Eden," ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 07:57:22 CDT 1997 Message number: 252 Reply to message number: 241 F> Yup. And they are additive. The more little pieces you pick up, t F> more other little pieces fall in place. Yes, it's amazing how one or two little drops can suddenly create a surge of information, especially by simply impelling one to search for more information along the same lines. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 07:59:07 CDT 1997 Message number: 253 Reply to message number: 245 FE> Who says bbsing does not teach you anything... I had no idea that those boo FE> were still avalible (or even taken out in the first place) yeah, I didn't know myself until about a year or two ago. I knew about the Catholic Apocrypha, but there are other books outside the Apocrypha I hadn't heard of. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 08:00:28 CDT 1997 Message number: 254 Reply to message number: 246 FE> Possibly hate was the wrong word to use, I should have said DISLIKE, We are FE> always taught that hating is a sin, but I know of nobody who is perfect. Dislike is a... better... word. And yes, no one is perfect, almost everyone eventually falls to hating someone, something. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 08:02:02 CDT 1997 Message number: 255 Reply to message number: 247 FE> I have only heard of Plato, oh yeah I played with some when I was younger. :) Plato can be a difficult read, he's often very dry, but I found that reading his works stimulated my mind by causing me to find errors in his logic and method and end results of his logic. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 08:03:25 CDT 1997 Message number: 256 Reply to message number: 248 FE> I can already say that I have learned quite a bit just in the past week or FE> two. that's good, I've been here longer and learned so much from everyone. One of the strengths is that almost everyone contributes something to the general development of everyone. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 08:38:41 CDT 1997 Message number: 257 Reply to message number: 244 C> much? why should it make any difference what people do in the privacy of the C> own homes as long as they don't try to force you to do it? FE> FE> when a 10 year old girl was taken from her home in 1994 (In indiana) and ta FE> to a man's house and raped for 3 days then killed it disturbed everybody, a FE> not well though of... If we didn't care what people did in the privacy of FE> their own homes then we would not care about drug dealers who make kilo's o FE> cocaine in their homes and then sell it to 12 year old boys on the streets FE> LA... The point is, what people do in their own homes (directly or indirect FE> affect *ALL* of us. Like it or not, one way or another it is true. FE> I still thinhk that what other people do in their own houses is private and sacrosanct. In the two examples that you mentioned, it is the activities OUTSIDE the home (kidnapping the girl, selling the drugs), that make the activities crimes. Although we may disagree with a lot of things people do, we cannot open that door of disallowing certain private things. Otherwise you will have the government telling you what to eat and when to go to the bathroom. FE> Note to froggy: I GOT THAT OUT OF A BOOK!!!!! YAHOOOO Great!! Observe that there are a lot of things printed in books that are questionable too. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 08:40:31 CDT 1997 Message number: 258 Reply to message number: 245 S> It's pretty open knowlege here, there's historical record of the council S> meeting and choosing which books to put in, and the other books exist and ca S> be found in some places if I have my information right. FE> FE> Who says bbsing does not teach you anything... I had no idea that those boo FE> were still avalible (or even taken out in the first place) Learning ia all around. I even learn from reading cereal boxes. Just be sure to keep some healthy skepticiem and an open mind. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 08:42:26 CDT 1997 Message number: 259 Reply to message number: 247 S> i just pick up things here and there. The ancient cultures stuff was in one S> of my textbooks somewhere, I read it by chance. The Greek bit is mentioned S> several places in Plato's writing. Some things just occur by chance. FE> FE> I have only heard of Plato, oh yeah I played with some when I was younger. I hope you were joking. Plato was an ancient Greek Philosopher (and a defunct CDC computer system), and Pla-Doh is a child's toy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 09:00:41 CDT 1997 Message number: 260 Reply to message number: 249 F> Have you ever read "Q?" S> S> No, I've heard portions of it, but never read it. S> I have a copy and have also "read at it." I think the language in it is beautiful. What I have heard is that Q was the legendary account of quotations from Jesus. They believe that the Gospel of Mark was based on it. S> Mary was so definitely a virgin, before and after the birth of Christ, and S> that she was sinless which was why she ascended into heaven. I was for a By whose definition of virgin? And since when did God creat us all as sexual creatures and then decclare sex a sin? I believe that Mary probably went on to live a perfectly normal married life and gave birth to other children, as she was expected to do. On the other hand, herlife could not possibly have been normal. Imagine raising a young child like Jesus. They escaped to Egypt when Herod sent his soldiers after Jesus and hid out there for a while. Then they returned to Galillee, and among other things, mothers begged Mary for strips of Jesus' clothing to wrap their sick babies to heal them, and when he was about 5, they were run out of town when the neighbors saw Jesus make little birds and animals out of mud and breathe life into them. That is, if you believe the Eden Bible. I think it is no less believable than much of the Bible we have left. S> a girl who I know to be way over the bounds of normality into artifacts and S> religious miracles was talking about how they found the cross Christ was S> crucified on. She was saying that she was sure they had run all sorts of S> tests on it to verify its authenticty, and my only thought was, what tests? S> couldn't think of a single test that could prove it was Christ's. They probablu cross-matched it with the DNA on the shroud of Turin -- Type O, caucasian origin. I wonder if she knows that the shroud carbon dates to about 400 AD. :) S> Christ's death, there were two other crosses (according to the story) that S> day, right next to Christ. i was, and still am actually, annoyed at her Maybe they were labeled, INRI, Moe, and Curly. Wow! Wash your mouth out! That was Bad! S> day, right next to Christ. i was, and still am actually, annoyed at her S> willingness to believe something that makes a nice story because some priest S> tells her it is true. This annoys me too, especially when a scientist does it. Makes you wonder about his scientific ethics. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 09:01:21 CDT 1997 Message number: 261 Reply to message number: 250 F> Hmmmm. My Methodist grandmother thought that sexual creatures were F> created by Satan. :) S> S> How unusual... Methodist, eh? So does sexual creatures include humans? ESPECIALLY! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 09:12:32 CDT 1997 Message number: 262 Reply to message number: 251 S> Really, where could I find a Bible like that? I'm fairly familiar with S> mainstream Christian bookstores, because my father frequents them, but I'm S> almost certain none of them would have them. S> S> What's in the "Lost Books of Eden," ? I really don't know how to get it. My copy is packed away and I will be moving soon. Can't get it for a while. Are you familiar with the *Journal of Biblical Archaeology? If they have a web page or publisher's address, they may be able to help you more. You might find out some more at the Christian Book stores, but most of them are run by denominations that may not want to know about non-canon Bibles. The "Lost Books" are the books that had been canon and then removed. They contain many stories about Jesus' childhood, which is strangely missing from our Catholic-dominated Bible, which wanted us to believe that Jesus arrived here as a miraculous baby abd then immediately sprung to adulthood. They also contain some poetry similar to Psalms and Song of Soloman. They are very complicated, wordy, and difficult to read. I have tried to imagine the Latin and figured that this was one reason why the Vatican Councils dumped them. Especially since canonic Latin of that day had no spaces between words. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 09:15:17 CDT 1997 Message number: 263 Reply to message number: 253 S> yeah, I didn't know myself until about a year or two ago. I knew about the S> Catholic Apocrypha, but there are other books outside the Apocrypha I hadn't S> heard of. I won a contest once, where I answered "How many books were bound up with Susannah and Baruch." When I answered "thirteen," the professor was pissed that I knew, since he knew I was a Protestant and probably didn't have a Vulgate. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 09:16:41 CDT 1997 Message number: 264 Reply to message number: 255 S> reading his works stimulated my mind by causing me to find errors in his log S> and method and end results of his logic. You mean. Errors --> and end? I need a nap. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 13:40:51 CDT 1997 Message number: 265 Reply to message number: 186 FE> killed. What is the opinion of the general public? kill em all ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 16:37:30 CDT 1997 Message number: 266 Reply to message number: 255 S> :) Plato can be a difficult read, he's often very dry, but I found that S> reading his works stimulated my mind by causing me to find errors in his log S> and method and end results of his logic. Such as? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 16:38:23 CDT 1997 Message number: 267 Reply to message number: 256 S> that's good, I've been here longer and learned so much from everyone. One S> of the strengths is that almost everyone contributes something to the genera S> development of everyone. I wish more people called, but I am guilty of the same, I never liked dissent for its messages, I wanted cool files... Others will come around such as I have... I hope. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 16:41:34 CDT 1997 Message number: 268 Reply to message number: 257 F> I still thinhk that what other people do in their own houses is F> private and sacrosanct. In the two examples that you mentioned, it is the F> activities OUTSIDE the home (kidnapping the girl, selling the drugs), that F> make the activities crimes. Although we may disagree with a lot of things Do you really think so? What if everyone knew how to make crack? And we all did it in our homes? This would help this countries drug problem, but not end it. Now... When drugs really hit among the general public they came from peoples homes, they started private but could not stay a secret for long, the same with homosexuality. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 16:42:05 CDT 1997 Message number: 269 Reply to message number: 258 F> Learning ia all around. I even learn from reading cereal boxes. F> Just be sure to keep some healthy skepticiem and an open mind. heheh, I am always 2 busy eating the cereal. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 16:42:43 CDT 1997 Message number: 270 Reply to message number: 259 F> I hope you were joking. Plato was an ancient Greek Philosopher (an F> a defunct CDC computer system), and Pla-Doh is a child's toy. at ease, I knew who he was but have never studied his works. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Devious Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 16:43:16 CDT 1997 Message number: 271 Reply to message number: 265 FE> killed. What is the opinion of the general public? D> D> kill em all Oh boy, your gunna get some comments on that one! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 12 21:22:03 CDT 1997 Message number: 272 Reply to message number: 268 F> activities OUTSIDE the home (kidnapping the girl, selling the drugs), that F> make the activities crimes. Although we may disagree with a lot of things FE> FE> Do you really think so? What if everyone knew how to make crack? And we all FE> did it in our homes? This would help this countries drug problem, but not e FE> it. FE> Yes. If I use drugs in my home, or who I have sex with, or what TV show I watch, is none of your damned business. It only becomes your business if I take it outside my home and it affects other people. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 13 05:52:53 CDT 1997 Message number: 273 Reply to message number: 202 S> Um, totally against that belief... I'd rather ignore that verse of the Bibl S> if it supports killing people. My general attitude towards gays is that the S> should be treated like everyone else, with respect and kindness. FE> Are you disreguarding that fact that it's wrong? Are you misrepresenting opinions as facts? The fact is, the sun is out right now. Whether that is a good thing, or an evil one, is my opinion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 13 05:57:18 CDT 1997 Message number: 274 Reply to message number: 208 F> women on the other side. They compose the majority of the curve, with the F> small band of committed heterosexuals in the middle. If you are defining th F> as "normal," that means that the only ones you consider normal are the F> minoroty, and the majority is either gay or bi. I'm curious, where did you get this bit of info? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 13 06:02:04 CDT 1997 Message number: 275 Reply to message number: 212 S> greater bonds. And none of these animals can reason so it's most definitely S> natural for them, I don't see why humans can't be operating under the same S> natural laws... Some animals also kill their young, and each other. This is also natural, and yet we would not condone anyone practicing this sort of behaviour. So what's the differences between behaving naturally in ways which society condones, and acting naturally in ways which society does not condone? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 13 06:05:13 CDT 1997 Message number: 276 Reply to message number: 213 FE> It's wrong, and should not be looked upon as normal. Normal is what was in FE> beginning men and Women, then we got this Gay, Lesbian stuff... What's with FE> that? S> S> I don't understand what you're saying... then we got this Gay, lesbian S> stuff... Never forget that homosexuality was an accepted part of many S> cultures both primitive and so called cultured. i.e. Tribes in Africa, and S> the ancient Greeks (Socrates and friends) In Spatra, the masculine-warrior city that most directly competed with Athens, it was part of the social fabric. Young men would be partnered with an older man, who would teach him the ways of life. Even after they "graduated" out of this partnering, the men would rarely live with their wives, and would instead spend most of their time with other men in the barracks. Not only was homosexuality occuring here - it was encouraged by the state. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 13 06:11:39 CDT 1997 Message number: 277 Reply to message number: 227 F> Sometimes I feel like it. :) But you are on the right track. I F> rarely accept one person's opinion about a new subject. I ask other people' F> opinis. I look up history and read. That way I have gotten a lot of F> information that I otherwise wouldn't have. FE> FE> Possibly in a few years I will be up with you guys, I am already starting t FE> research some of the message I see (and post) on here! That's great, I'm glad to see that you're curious and willing to learn. If you can keep that curiosity, you'll be a lot better off than many people ... it's very easy to lose. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 13 06:17:08 CDT 1997 Message number: 278 Reply to message number: 244 FE> LA... The point is, what people do in their own homes (directly or indirect FE> affect *ALL* of us. Like it or not, one way or another it is true. I believe that what Cosima was saying was not that what people do in their homes is sacrosanct - she was using a cliche, which translates into "why procecute victimless crimes between concentual adults, if they're done in private?" Sometimes society does feel the need to intrude into this realm. We have made drugs illegal, and have mandatory seatbelt laws. The problem with laws like these are, that they have a tendency to erode civil liberties and are very difficult to enforce. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 13 11:32:58 CDT 1997 Message number: 279 Reply to message number: 260 F> I have a copy and have also "read at it." I think the language in F> it is beautiful. What I have heard is that Q was the legendary account of F> quotations from Jesus. They believe that the Gospel of Mark was based on it I had heard that. I went to my bible dictionary right afterwards and looked up all I could find about Q, unfortunately it was very little other than the Mark, and mention of also possibly being a source for Matthew and Luke. F> By whose definition of virgin? And since when did God creat us all By the definition, no sexual intercourse ever, according to this student, Joseph just never had sexual relations with her ever after Jesus. F> By whose definition of virgin? And since when did God creat us all F> as sexual creatures and then decclare sex a sin? I believe that Mary probab Probably never. F> as sexual creatures and then decclare sex a sin? I believe that Mary probab F> went on to live a perfectly normal married life and gave birth to other F> children, as she was expected to do. On the other hand, herlife could not This is also what I believe. F> children, as she was expected to do. On the other hand, herlife could not F> possibly have been normal. Imagine raising a young child like Jesus. They F> escaped to Egypt when Herod sent his soldiers after Jesus and hid out there F> for a while. Then they returned to Galillee, and among other things, mother F> begged Mary for strips of Jesus' clothing to wrap their sick babies to heal F> them, and when he was about 5, they were run out of town when the neighbors F> saw Jesus make little birds and animals out of mud and breathe life into the F> That is, if you believe the Eden Bible. I think it is no less believable th F> much of the Bible we have left. I haven't researched enough to be able to make a statement about the believability of the other books, but what I have heard isn't really contradictory to the Gospels, mostly filling in what is missing. F> They probablu cross-matched it with the DNA on the shroud of Turin F> Type O, caucasian origin. I wonder if she knows that the shroud carbon date F> to about 400 AD. :) Ooh. That so much does not fit about what? A tenth of the population in that area at that time? I doubt she knows that, i didn't even know that, though I've also never taken an interest in the shroud. Interesting, thanks. F> Maybe they were labeled, INRI, Moe, and Curly. Wow! Wash your mou F> out! That was Bad! Tsk tsk tsk. :) F> This annoys me too, especially when a scientist does it. Makes you F> wonder about his scientific ethics. it definitely does, it's really unfortunate when a scientist gives up ethics to support a personal belief or cause. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 13 11:33:47 CDT 1997 Message number: 280 Reply to message number: 261 S> How unusual... Methodist, eh? So does sexual creatures include humans? F> F> ESPECIALLY! That's what I thought. So humans are the creations of Satan? Too bad for us. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 13 11:36:49 CDT 1997 Message number: 281 Reply to message number: 262 F> I really don't know how to get it. My copy is packed away and I wi F> be moving soon. Can't get it for a while. Are you familiar with the *Journal F> of Biblical Archaeology? If they have a web page or publisher's address, th F> may be able to help you more. You might find out some more at the Christian F> Book stores, but most of them are run by denominations that may not want to F> know about non-canon Bibles. I'll look around perhaps, check out the more fringe book stores too. F> The "Lost Books" are the books that had been canon and then removed F> They contain many stories about Jesus' childhood, which is strangely missing F> from our Catholic-dominated Bible, which wanted us to believe that Jesus F> arrived here as a miraculous baby abd then immediately sprung to adulthood. F> They also contain some poetry similar to Psalms and Song of Soloman. They ar F> very complicated, wordy, and difficult to read. I have tried to imagine the F> Latin and figured that this was one reason why the Vatican Councils dumped F> them. Especially since canonic Latin of that day had no spaces between words F> :) No spaces! How very difficult to read. Thanks, I actually managed to find that out yesterday by opening (again) my Bible Dictionary, amazing what stuff they have in there. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 13 11:38:25 CDT 1997 Message number: 282 Reply to message number: 263 F> I won a contest once, where I answered "How many books were bound u F> with Susannah and Baruch." When I answered "thirteen," the professor was F> pissed that I knew, since he knew I was a Protestant and probably didn't hav F> a Vulgate. Good call, it's fun sometimes to surprise overconfident teachers. I know I've done that from time to time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 13 11:39:32 CDT 1997 Message number: 283 Reply to message number: 264 F> You mean. Errors --> and end? I need a nap. Hmm? I was saying errors in both his logic and his end results. Sleep well. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 13 11:44:01 CDT 1997 Message number: 284 Reply to message number: 266 FE> Such as? Oh, gosh, I can't remember right off hand. In Symposium, an essay on the nature of love, he made a couple of leaps of logic that I disagreed with. Plato often wrote his essays in questioning format, such as What does something produce, then if that is such how does that affect x, and etc. I often found myself disagreeing with the answers he produced. He once demonstrated that all knowledge was innate and not learned, because he tried to show that by questioning an unlearned servant he could produce answers the servant wouldn't have known if asked by another method. He was dealing with mathematics and I felt that his method of questioning was really leading the student to the end result, and was pretty much the same as teaching. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 13 11:45:16 CDT 1997 Message number: 285 Reply to message number: 267 FE> I wish more people called, but I am guilty of the same, I never liked disse FE> for its messages, I wanted cool files... Others will come around such as I FE> have... I hope. Hopefully. I'm really fond of the message bases, but I've found many good text files as well. Someone new almost always shows up here and there and stimulates conversation, one just has to be patient and wait for that time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 13 11:49:25 CDT 1997 Message number: 286 Reply to message number: 275 DR> Some animals also kill their young, and each other. This is also natural, DR> and yet we would not condone anyone practicing this sort of behaviour. DR> DR> So what's the differences between behaving naturally in ways which society DR> condones, and acting naturally in ways which society does not condone? I think killing someone robs them of something that is innately theirs, namely their life, but I believe consensual sexual practices deprive no one of anything that they are not giving up more freely. ( to quote and paraphrase Hamlet, in fact that line ended with "except my life", hmm) I think when ones actions affect another in a way that they do not wish to allow. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 13 11:50:08 CDT 1997 Message number: 287 Reply to message number: 276 DR> In Spatra, the masculine-warrior city that most directly competed with DR> Athens, it was part of the social fabric. Young men would be partnered with DR> an older man, who would teach him the ways of life. Even after they DR> "graduated" out of this partnering, the men would rarely live with their DR> wives, and would instead spend most of their time with other men in the DR> barracks. Not only was homosexuality occuring here - it was encouraged by DR> the state. Exactly. This is part of my point. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 13 13:13:04 CDT 1997 Message number: 288 Reply to message number: 274 F> women on the other side. They compose the majority of the curve, with the F> small band of committed heterosexuals in the middle. If you are defining th F> as "normal," that means that the only ones you consider normal are the F> minoroty, and the majority is either gay or bi. DR> DR> I'm curious, where did you get this bit of info? Unlike you, I am not good at preserving such resources at this time. I have seen it and allusions to it in several places. It is based on, qamong others, Kinsey's observations that certain percentages of both sexes participate in homo- and auto- sex experiences in varying degrees. Even committed heterosexual males often have a "boy" experience when they are young, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 13 13:14:08 CDT 1997 Message number: 289 Reply to message number: 275 DR> So what's the differences between behaving naturally in ways which society DR> condones, and acting naturally in ways which society does not condone? Let me guess -- the opinion of society? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 13 13:30:02 CDT 1997 Message number: 290 Reply to message number: 279 F> quotations from Jesus. They believe that the Gospel of Mark was based on it S> S> I had heard that. I went to my bible dictionary right afterwards and looked S> up all I could find about Q, unfortunately it was very little other than the S> Mark, and mention of also possibly being a source for Matthew and Luke. Depends on the authority. Many think that Mark was the first Gospel written. There seems to be a lot of question about the authenticity of Matthew and John at all, claiming that they were actually written by people using Mark as a source. Luke, of course, actually wrote Luke, but of all the Gospels, the only one that actually may have been written by one of Jesus' disciples was the Gospel of Thomas, which was removed by the Vaticans. S> I haven't researched enough to be able to make a statement about the S> believability of the other books, but what I have heard isn't really S> contradictory to the Gospels, mostly filling in what is missing. S> They are contradictory in that they place a great deal of importance on Mary and her role. In our gospels, she gives birth to Jesus, finds him in the temple when he is 13, and is at his crucifixion when Jesus turns her over to Thomas. In many of these books, she plays a very pivotal part. One of them, in fact, represents Joseph as sort of an incompetent ying-yang. F> Type O, caucasian origin. I wonder if she knows that the shroud carbon date F> to about 400 AD. :) S> S> Ooh. That so much does not fit about what? A tenth of the population in tha S> area at that time? I doubt she knows that, i didn't even know that, though S> I've also never taken an interest in the shroud. Interesting, thanks. S> I have become more interested in it since I have been aware that they have been doing real carbon dating, spectrographic studies, DNA mapping, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 13 13:30:56 CDT 1997 Message number: 291 Reply to message number: 280 S> How unusual... Methodist, eh? So does sexual creatures include humans? F> F> ESPECIALLY! S> S> That's what I thought. So humans are the creations of Satan? Too bad for u Makes you wonder how these people read the Bible, eh? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 13 13:38:35 CDT 1997 Message number: 292 Reply to message number: 281 F> I really don't know how to get it. My copy is packed away and I wi F> be moving soon. Can't get it for a while. Are you familiar with the *Journal S> I'll look around perhaps, check out the more fringe book stores too. I was doing some packing today and ran across a book it may be in. I'll check it out when I am not so exhausted and if I find it, I'll post info about it. F> very complicated, wordy, and difficult to read. I have tried to imagine the F> Latin and figured that this was one reason why the Vatican Councils dumped F> them. Especially since canonic Latin of that day had no spaces between words S> No spaces! How very difficult to read. Thanks, I actually managed to find S> that out yesterday by opening (again) my Bible Dictionary, amazing what stuf S> they have in there. Does your dictionary show pictures of illuminated Latin text? Actually, all classical and Liturgical Latin was written without spaces. In addition, there were no J's, hence Jesus became Iesus. There were actually no W's either, just double V's. VV. There are a few old texts that ignore this point and print all V's, so that wolf would be volf. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 15 17:26:33 CDT 1997 Message number: 293 Reply to message number: 272 F> Yes. If I use drugs in my home, or who I have sex with, or what TV F> show I watch, is none of your damned business. It only becomes your busines F> if I take it outside my home and it affects other people. I think thats how drugs started out, people trippin in their homes then bringing some friends over and trippin out then they go home and do it, then soon everyone is, and those who don't do drugs turn into a minority. Do you want to see homosexuality become a majority of the merrages in the US? Where the hell are ids going to come from? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 15 17:27:52 CDT 1997 Message number: 294 Reply to message number: 273 DR> Are you misrepresenting opinions as facts? DR> DR> The fact is, the sun is out right now. Whether that is a good thing, or an DR> evil one, is my opinion. Everyone is entitled to an opinion (No matter what the government thinks or says) An opinion is what keeps out country going, BUT how can this be an opinion? When the facts show that it is wrong? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 15 17:28:52 CDT 1997 Message number: 295 Reply to message number: 277 DR> That's great, I'm glad to see that you're curious and willing to learn. If DR> you can keep that curiosity, you'll be a lot better off than many people .. DR> it's very easy to lose. I've been really busy at school, I don't get home until like 10:00pm now and I try to check my mail from the library as much as I can, So don't think to much of it if my posting slows down until Monday, then I'm all done. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 15 17:31:00 CDT 1997 Message number: 296 Reply to message number: 278 DR> homes is sacrosanct - she was using a cliche, which translates into "why What in the hell is "sacrosanct"? DR> Sometimes society does feel the need to intrude into this realm. We have DR> drugs illegal, and have mandatory seatbelt laws. The problem with laws like DR> these are, that they have a tendency to erode civil liberties and are very DR> difficult to enforce. I myself think seatbelts are a good idea and they do save lives, but smoking takes lives and we don't have laws that say you have to smoke a filtered cig. So why can we make people save their lives? I think it should be a person's personal preference, although I think its a good idea to wear a seatbelt. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 15 17:31:38 CDT 1997 Message number: 297 Reply to message number: 284 S> Oh, gosh, I can't remember right off hand. In Symposium, an essay on the S> nature of love, he made a couple of leaps of logic that I disagreed with. S> Plato often wrote his essays in questioning format, such as What does S> something produce, then if that is such how does that affect x, and etc. I S> often found myself disagreeing with the answers he produced. He once S> demonstrated that all knowledge was innate and not learned, because he tried S> to show that by questioning an unlearned servant he could produce answers th S> servant wouldn't have known if asked by another method. He was dealing with S> mathematics and I felt that his method of questioning was really leading the S> student to the end result, and was pretty much the same as teaching. Hey that does not sound that boring... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 15 17:32:19 CDT 1997 Message number: 298 Reply to message number: 285 Is this board advertised??? It's the best message base in the whole damn area code! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 15 18:18:25 CDT 1997 Message number: 299 Reply to message number: 244 FE> when a 10 year old girl was taken from her home in 1994 (In indiana) and ta FE> to a man's house and raped for 3 days then killed it disturbed everybody, a FE> that man was also disturbed, cause he killed himself. The point you made wa FE> not well though of... If we didn't care what people did in the privacy of FE> their own homes then we would not care about drug dealers who make kilo's o FE> cocaine in their homes and then sell it to 12 year old boys on the streets FE> LA... The point is, what people do in their own homes (directly or indirect FE> affect *ALL* of us. Like it or not, one way or another it is true. * in my original post, FE, i talked about consenting adults. not children, not against their will. sex with children is criminal. sex with consenting adults should not be. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 15 18:21:14 CDT 1997 Message number: 300 Reply to message number: 272 F> Yes. If I use drugs in my home, or who I have sex with, or what TV F> show I watch, is none of your damned business. It only becomes your busines F> if I take it outside my home and it affects other people. * exactly. as long as the people you have sex w/ are also adults who entered into your home of their own free will. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 15 21:06:56 CDT 1997 Message number: 301 Reply to message number: 293 FE> I think thats how drugs started out, people trippin in their homes then FE> bringing some friends over and trippin out then they go home and do it, the FE> soon everyone is, and those who don't do drugs turn into a minority. Do you I don't think that people who don't use are a minority, unless you count alcohol and cigarettes. Even so, people have the right to do it in their own homes as long as it doesn't harm someone else. FE> want to see homosexuality become a majority of the merrages in the US? Wher FE> the hell are ids going to come from? Homosexuality is not a learned behavior. It is a biological urge, and I am secure about my own sexuality. No matter how many people around me are practicing homosexuals, I will always love men, which are my opposite sex. As a matter of fact, one of my friends is a male homosexual, and neither of us is the least bit interested in going to bed with each other. Neither does associating with him make me want to try out women. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Cosima Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 16 15:24:41 CDT 1997 Message number: 302 Reply to message number: 299 C> in my original post, FE, i talked about consenting adults. not children, not C> against their will. sex with children is criminal. sex with consenting adult C> should not be. Very true, but do you not notice that homosexuality has spread to those under the legal age? I will say this again IT AFFECTS EVERYONE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 16 15:26:10 CDT 1997 Message number: 303 Reply to message number: 301 F> Homosexuality is not a learned behavior. It is a biological urge, F> and I am secure about my own sexuality. No matter how many people around me F> are practicing homosexuals, I will always love men, which are my opposite se F> As a matter of fact, one of my friends is a male homosexual, and neither of F> us is the least bit interested in going to bed with each other. Neither doe F> associating with him make me want to try out women. Holy shit, you scared me there, until I read the part about men being your opposite sex. I though you were a guy. I guess I should learn not to assume. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 16 15:57:56 CDT 1997 Message number: 304 Reply to message number: 290 F> Depends on the authority. Many think that Mark was the first Gospel F> written. There seems to be a lot of question about the authenticity of F> Matthew and John at all, claiming that they were actually written by people F> using Mark as a source. Luke, of course, actually wrote Luke, but of all th F> Gospels, the only one that actually may have been written by one of Jesus' F> disciples was the Gospel of Thomas, which was removed by the Vaticans. Actually written by Thomas the disciple, interesting. i'll try to find a copy sometime. F> They are contradictory in that they place a great deal of importanc F> on Mary and her role. In our gospels, she gives birth to Jesus, finds him i F> the temple when he is 13, and is at his crucifixion when Jesus turns her ove F> to Thomas. In many of these books, she plays a very pivotal part. One of F> them, in fact, represents Joseph as sort of an incompetent ying-yang. Ah, that is interesting, would these have anything to do with the importance of Mary in the Catholic faith, they practically worship her and I would be interested to know if that developed from the Apocryphal texts. F> I have become more interested in it since I have been aware that th F> have been doing real carbon dating, spectrographic studies, DNA mapping, etc Mmm. I was aware of the carbon dating, but that was all. What have been their conclusions so far? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 16 15:59:11 CDT 1997 Message number: 305 Reply to message number: 291 F> Makes you wonder how these people read the Bible, eh? Indeed, and scares me to think of what they might interpret out of many other great texts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 16 16:03:13 CDT 1997 Message number: 306 Reply to message number: 292 F> I was doing some packing today and ran across a book it may be in. F> I'll check it out when I am not so exhausted and if I find it, I'll post inf F> about it. Well, thank you... Where are you moving to may i ask? and isn't packing hell. Especially books, which pack well but are heavy as all heck for moving. F> Does your dictionary show pictures of illuminated Latin text? don't think so, but there is so much text in there that I can't be sure. I'll check sometime, but I don't think so. F> Actually, all classical and Liturgical Latin was written without spaces. In F> addition, there were no J's, hence Jesus became Iesus. There were actually n F> W's either, just double V's. VV. There are a few old texts that ignore thi Interesting, an unusual way of writing to say the least. F> W's either, just double V's. VV. There are a few old texts that ignore thi F> point and print all V's, so that wolf would be volf. That could be obnoxious with words where the w is important, or just in general. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 16 16:05:34 CDT 1997 Message number: 307 Reply to message number: 294 FE> Everyone is entitled to an opinion (No matter what the government thinks or FE> says) An opinion is what keeps out country going, BUT how can this be an FE> opinion? When the facts show that it is wrong? it's a matter of the definition of facts. A fact is something that is verifiably evidenced, something that can be measured or assured without using an opinion. There isn't any way to determine wrongness of an activity in a moral sense using fact because morality is based on opinion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 16 16:09:27 CDT 1997 Message number: 308 Reply to message number: 297 FE> Hey that does not sound that boring... the ideas really aren't, but the style Plato presents them in, especially in The Republic I found to be rather tedious. Possibly because it often takes many words to completely make a philosophic case, especially one by the method of dialogue Plato used which often led one down trails of thought that he would later condemn as wrong. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 16 16:10:51 CDT 1997 Message number: 309 Reply to message number: 298 FE> Is this board advertised??? It's the best message base in the whole damn ar FE> code! Not to my knowledge, though I do agree with you about this being the best. You'd have to ask Big Teebo or Daedalus about advertising to get an accurate answer. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 16 17:28:33 CDT 1997 Message number: 310 Reply to message number: 302 C> in my original post, FE, i talked about consenting adults. not children, not C> against their will. sex with children is criminal. sex with consenting adult C> should not be. FE> FE> Very true, but do you not notice that homosexuality has spread to those und FE> the legal age? I will say this again IT AFFECTS EVERYONE I don't think that the percentage of o homosexuals in the general population has increased at all. What is happening is that they are no longer so much in the closet and are more visible. Also, all of sexuality is affecting younger people. This week there was even an announcement that young girls are entering puberty almost 4 years earlier than before. Homosexuality is just part of the whole picture. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 16 17:31:05 CDT 1997 Message number: 311 Reply to message number: 303 F> are practicing homosexuals, I will always love men, which are my opposite se FE> Holy shit, you scared me there, until I read the part about men being your FE> opposite sex. I though you were a guy. I guess I should learn not to assume Maybe pay attention to the meaning of "opposite?" I am a fully convinced heterosexual woman with 2 children. On the other hand, I hope that you are aware that when you post publicly like this, your comments are being read by gays. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 16 17:38:00 CDT 1997 Message number: 312 Reply to message number: 304 F> They are contradictory in that they place a great deal of importanc F> on Mary and her role. In our gospels, she gives birth to Jesus, finds him i F> the temple when he is 13, and is at his crucifixion when Jesus turns her ove S> Ah, that is interesting, would these have anything to do with the importance S> of Mary in the Catholic faith. I have wondered about that too. Especially in view of the fact that it was the VATICAN councils who removed them from canon. Also interesting that this seems to have happened at about the same time that Christianity was moving from loosely organized secretive groups to more organized, paternal organizations. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 16 17:44:44 CDT 1997 Message number: 313 Reply to message number: 308 FE> Hey that does not sound that boring... S> S> the ideas really aren't, but the style Plato presents them in, especially in Exactly. ZZZZZZZZZZ. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri Apr 18 17:32:56 CDT 1997 Message number: 314 Reply to message number: 307 S> it's a matter of the definition of facts. A fact is something that is S> verifiably evidenced, something that can be measured or assured without usin S> an opinion. There isn't any way to determine wrongness of an activity in a S> moral sense using fact because morality is based on opinion. It says that it is wrong in the Bible, find me 1 thing in there that is wrong. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri Apr 18 17:34:04 CDT 1997 Message number: 315 Reply to message number: 309 S> Not to my knowledge, though I do agree with you about this being the best. S> You'd have to ask Big Teebo or Daedalus about advertising to get an accurate S> answer. It has great potential, But I have noticed all the messages I pull in are from the same people... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri Apr 18 17:35:32 CDT 1997 Message number: 316 Reply to message number: 310 F> I don't think that the percentage of o homosexuals in the general F> population has increased at all. What is happening is that they are no long F> so much in the closet and are more visible. Also, all of sexuality is F> affecting younger people. This week there was even an announcement that you F> girls are entering puberty almost 4 years earlier than before. Homosexualit F> is just part of the whole picture. Froggy, a person who researches their messages as well as you do would not write that, the numbers have climbed by a great amount, I saw a report at school on it. 20/20 or something like that (I can check if you wish and get the exact numbers) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri Apr 18 18:04:18 CDT 1997 Message number: 317 Reply to message number: 312 F> I have wondered about that too. Especially in view of the fact that it F> was the VATICAN councils who removed them from canon. Also interesting that F> this seems to have happened at about the same time that Christianity was F> moving from loosely organized secretive groups to more organized, paternal F> organizations. This is an interesting line of thought. They don't seem to have known exactly what they were doing, which wouldn't be too surprising to me in terms of how I imagine the early Vatican councils. I'd rather suspect they were uncoordinated and chaotic, with many different decisions being made by many different people without too much logic. Having not read the extra books I can't say with certainty, but maybe they made the sacrifice of giving up books supporting their emphasis on Mary to remove a greater amount of material they felt was counter to their beliefs or control of the Christian church. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri Apr 18 18:05:17 CDT 1997 Message number: 318 Reply to message number: 313 F> Exactly. ZZZZZZZZZZ. Thank you, yes that's exactly it. And I actually did fall asleep reading Plato, but that's what I get for reading philosophy at 2 in the morning. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri Apr 18 18:10:22 CDT 1997 Message number: 319 Reply to message number: 314 FE> It says that it is wrong in the Bible, find me 1 thing in there that is wro What do you mean find 1 thing that is wrong? However, just like I'd disagree with the authors who formed those statements I'd disagree with the authors who said to kill a man who strikes a parent (really, that's pretty extreme) or the author (good old Paul) who said that slaves should be content with their positions. Also, depending on the level of literalism one reads the Bible at, why would God create creatures specifically with the intent of having them do something he would prescribe as wrong. It's like a parent saying "Here, go play outside" and then slapping them for doing so. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri Apr 18 18:12:04 CDT 1997 Message number: 320 Reply to message number: 315 FE> It has great potential, But I have noticed all the messages I pull in are f FE> the same people... Depends on who calls and who feels like replying, there are messages I pay no attention to at all also. I think this is one of the more quiet periods, it has been more active before. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri Apr 18 22:35:06 CDT 1997 Message number: 321 Reply to message number: 314 FE> It says that it is wrong in the Bible, find me 1 thing in there that is wro The Gospel of Luke says that Jesus' mother was a virgin and then traces Jesus' genealogy back to King David through Joseph. Both can't be right. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri Apr 18 22:37:49 CDT 1997 Message number: 322 Reply to message number: 316 F> I don't think that the percentage of o homosexuals in the general F> population has increased at all. What is happening is that they are no long FE> Froggy, a person who researches their messages as well as you do would not FE> write that, the numbers have climbed by a great amount, I saw a report at FE> school on it. 20/20 or something like that (I can check if you wish and get FE> the exact numbers) She would write it if she believed it. Show mw otherwise. Remember to account for the difference in people who have kept it hidden and are now out. I am also talking only about people who act it out, not "leanings." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 19 10:07:25 CDT 1997 Message number: 323 Reply to message number: 319 S> What do you mean find 1 thing that is wrong? However, just like I'd disagre S> with the authors who formed those statements I'd disagree with the authors S> who said to kill a man who strikes a parent (really, that's pretty extreme) S> or the author (good old Paul) who said that slaves should be content with S> their positions. Also, depending on the level of literalism one reads the S> Bible at, why would God create creatures specifically with the intent of S> having them do something he would prescribe as wrong. It's like a parent S> saying "Here, go play outside" and then slapping them for doing so. Things were better when it was "pretty extreme" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 19 10:08:37 CDT 1997 Message number: 324 Reply to message number: 321 F> The Gospel of Luke says that Jesus' mother was a virgin and then F> traces Jesus' genealogy back to King David through Joseph. Both can't be F> right. That's odd, are you sure it was traced back through Joseph? Are you sure that the term "virgin" is the same now as it was back then? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 19 13:07:28 CDT 1997 Message number: 325 Reply to message number: 320 S> Depends on who calls and who feels like replying, there are messages I pay n S> attention to at all also. I think this is one of the more quiet periods, it S> has been more active before. Schools a big drain for many people, it usually picks up in the summer, and every year or two users will "cycle" - some will drop out and some will join in. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 19 13:08:44 CDT 1997 Message number: 326 Reply to message number: 202 FE> Are you disreguarding that fact that it's wrong? Or do you just want to alw FE> look the other way? How do you define something as being "wrong"? On what grounds can something be "wrong"? Do wrong mean mistake, an act against god, a damaging activity? *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 19 13:12:21 CDT 1997 Message number: 327 Reply to message number: 303 FE> Holy shit, you scared me there, until I read the part about men being your FE> opposite sex. I though you were a guy. I guess I should learn not to assume Would it really of changed your views on what Froggy had/s to say? Haven't things like this happened to you, perhaps on other bulletin boards, where once people find out how old you are they don't want to talk with you anymore because they can't take you seriously? If it hasn't happened to you, I'm sure you could imagine it, or draw some parallels from your own life. If knowing someone's sexual orientation really matters that much to you, we'll just leave it at the eerie "you really don't want to know, know I mean _really_" vague statement. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 20 00:33:49 CDT 1997 Message number: 328 Reply to message number: 323 S> What do you mean find 1 thing that is wrong? However, just like I'd disagre S> with the authors who formed those statements I'd disagree with the authors S> who said to kill a man who strikes a parent (really, that's pretty extreme) S> or the author (good old Paul) who said that slaves should be content with S> their positions. Also, depending on the level of literalism one reads the FE> Things were better when it was "pretty extreme" Better for whom? The slaves? People who were killed for minor offenses? People who were stoned to death without due process and may have been innocent? Women and children who were cast out of society and allowed to starve because their fathers had died? I think you should read some history. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 20 00:37:59 CDT 1997 Message number: 329 Reply to message number: 324 F> The Gospel of Luke says that Jesus' mother was a virgin and then F> traces Jesus' genealogy back to King David through Joseph. Both can't be F> right. FE> FE> That's odd, are you sure it was traced back through Joseph? Are you sure th Yes, back through Joseph and his father Jacob. FE> the term "virgin" is the same now as it was back then? I have already point out that it may not have. Especially since the English word, virgin was not used, and the Greek word actually used could also be translated, "young woman." However, it doesn't matter, because most of the people who insist that the Bible is infallible also insist that Mary was a virgin as we define it today. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 20 00:40:42 CDT 1997 Message number: 330 Reply to message number: 327 FE> Holy shit, you scared me there, until I read the part about men being your FE> opposite sex. I though you were a guy. I guess I should learn not to assume BT> BT> Would it really of changed your views on what Froggy had/s to say? Haven't A meaningful question would be, "Does who I go to bed with really alter my opinions and credibility in the other areas where I post?" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 21 12:23:37 CDT 1997 Message number: 331 Reply to message number: 326 BT> How do you define something as being "wrong"? On what grounds can somethin BT> be "wrong"? Do wrong mean mistake, an act against god, a damaging activity Now, I understand you are of the Pagan beliefs correct? I base my knowlege on right and wrong on the Bible (Directly or Indirectly) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 21 12:24:39 CDT 1997 Message number: 332 Reply to message number: 327 BT> Would it really of changed your views on what Froggy had/s to say? Haven't BT> things like this happened to you, perhaps on other bulletin boards, where BT> once people find out how old you are they don't want to talk with you anymo BT> because they can't take you seriously? If it hasn't happened to you, I'm s BT> you could imagine it, or draw some parallels from your own life. If BT> knowing someone's sexual orientation really matters that much to you, we'll BT> just leave it at the eerie "you really don't want to know, know I mean BT> _really_" vague statement. Did I speak down on Froggy for being Female? Have my messages to and from her slowed??? Nope, I don't give a fuck. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 21 12:25:45 CDT 1997 Message number: 333 Reply to message number: 328 F> Better for whom? The slaves? People who were killed for minor F> offenses? People who were stoned to death without due process and may have F> been innocent? Women and children who were cast out of society and allowed F> starve because their fathers had died? I think you should read some history Do those things not happen even today? For the majority of people it was better, Simple is good, Thats really dumb considering im sitting on a computer right now, So I recall that... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 21 12:27:10 CDT 1997 Message number: 334 Reply to message number: 329 F> Yes, back through Joseph and his father Jacob. Yes, True Joseph was related to King David, But so was Mary, I think the Bible was trying to show that he was related to David no matter which way you went. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 21 14:56:51 CDT 1997 Message number: 335 Reply to message number: 323 FE> Things were better when it was "pretty extreme" I disagree, on the grounds that there is nothing in the "pretty extreme" that I would want to live under. One could be killed for practically anything on the whim of those above you. Millions of people lived in slavery, and millions of others lived in poverty. You had almost no freedom, there really wasn't such a thing as civil liberty. Half of the things we've said on this bbs would get us thrown in jail, or killed. Not a pleasant social or political atmosphere. Froggy, anything I've missed? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 21 14:58:35 CDT 1997 Message number: 336 Reply to message number: 325 BT> Schools a big drain for many people, it usually picks up in the summer, and BT> every year or two users will "cycle" - some will drop out and some will joi BT> in. Yep, those too. I've not been calling here long enough to see many of the major posters completely drop, at least I haven't noticed such. But in time I suppose. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 21 15:01:17 CDT 1997 Message number: 337 Reply to message number: 332 FE> Did I speak down on Froggy for being Female? Have my messages to and from h FE> slowed??? Nope, I don't give a fuck. He's not talking about female, he's talking about her sexual orientation. i.e. which gender she prefers relative to herself. Read it again and the post he was responding to and it should make more sense. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: FATAL ERROR Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 21 17:03:10 CDT 1997 Message number: 338 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Fatal Error : DR> Are you misrepresenting opinions as facts? DR> DR> The fact is, the sun is out right now. Whether that is a good thing, or DR> evil one, is my opinion. FE> Everyone is entitled to an opinion (No matter what the government FE> thinks or says) An opinion is what keeps out country going, BUT how FE> can this be an opinion? When the facts show that it is wrong? All right, then would you mind proving the "fact" that homosexuality is wrong? ... The best defense against logic is stupidity. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: FATAL ERROR Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 21 17:03:11 CDT 1997 Message number: 339 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Fatal Error : DR> homes is sacrosanct - she was using a cliche, which translates into "why FE> What in the hell is "sacrosanct"? Untouchable, beyond reproach. To be left alone, in its pure and sacred form. FE> I myself think seatbelts are a good idea and they do save lives, but FE> smoking takes lives and we don't have laws that say you have to smoke FE> a filtered cig. So why can we make people save their lives? I think it FE> should be a person's personal preference, although I think its a good FE> idea to wear a seatbelt. We can make laws like these, becasue people in cars are not entitled to the same 4th amendment protections as people in homes. ... An optimist is a guy without much experience. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: FATAL ERROR Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 21 17:03:12 CDT 1997 Message number: 340 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Fatal Error : C> in my original post, FE, i talked about consenting adults. not children, n C> against their will. sex with children is criminal. sex with consenting adu C> should not be. FE> Very true, but do you not notice that homosexuality has spread to FE> those under the legal age? I will say this again IT AFFECTS EVERYONE If it's so easy to spread, like some kind of virus, am I to assume that a lot of poeple at your school have fallen prey to the allure of the homosexual lifestyle? ... Yield to temptation; It may not pass your way again. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: SPECTER Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 21 17:03:13 CDT 1997 Message number: 341 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Specter : FE> Is this board advertised??? It's the best message base in the whole damn FE> code! Sp> Not to my knowledge, though I do agree with you about this being the Sp> best. You'd have to ask Big Teebo or Daedalus about advertising to get Sp> an accurate answer. ... or the users could take the initiative and spread the number themselves :) ... "The dawn of the 3rd age of mankind is... jee, look at the time!" -JMS ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 22 00:23:54 CDT 1997 Message number: 342 Reply to message number: 332 BT> Would it really of changed your views on what Froggy had/s to say? Haven't BT> knowing someone's sexual orientation really matters that much to you, we'll BT> just leave it at the eerie "you really don't want to know, know I mean BT> _really_" vague statement. FE> FE> Did I speak down on Froggy for being Female? Have my messages to and from h FE> slowed??? Nope, I don't give a fuck. No, I don't think you are a sexist. But it is apparent that you would judge me if you thought I were a lesbian. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 22 00:28:33 CDT 1997 Message number: 343 Reply to message number: 333 F> Better for whom? The slaves? People who were killed for minor F> offenses? People who were stoned to death without due process and may have F> been innocent? Women and children who were cast out of society and allowed F> starve because their fathers had died? I think you should read some history FE> FE> Do those things not happen even today? For the majority of people it was FE> better, Simple is good, Thats really dumb considering im sitting on a compu FE> right now, So I recall that... Yes, sometimes those things do happen today, but we are advanced enough that we try to remove them from our cultures instead of extolling them. I suggested that before any president sign more bills reducing food stamps, education, etc., that he have to live for 6 months the way they would affect people. Maybe you should do the same. Throw away your computer, your house, your car, and live "simply" and see if you still think it is best. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 22 00:29:59 CDT 1997 Message number: 344 Reply to message number: 334 F> Yes, back through Joseph and his father Jacob. FE> FE> Yes, True Joseph was related to King David, But so was Mary, I think the Bi FE> was trying to show that he was related to David no matter which way you wen Yes, the Bible was trying to cover its butt in both ways. But if Mary was a virgin, Joseph should not have been considered in the mix in any way. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 22 00:31:56 CDT 1997 Message number: 345 Reply to message number: 335 FE> Things were better when it was "pretty extreme" S> S> I disagree, on the grounds that there is nothing in the "pretty extreme" tha S> I would want to live under. One could be killed for practically anything on S> the whim of those above you. Millions of people lived in slavery, and S> millions of others lived in poverty. You had almost no freedom, there reall S> wasn't such a thing as civil liberty. Half of the things we've said on thi S> bbs would get us thrown in jail, or killed. Not a pleasant social or S> political atmosphere. S> S> Froggy, anything I've missed? You have said pretty much everything I would have except one thing -- before he endorses it, live under it himself for 6 months, and THEN make up his mind. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Spaghetti Dinner Date: Tue Apr 22 12:31:22 CDT 1997 Message number: 346 Reply to message number: unavailable We're having a spaghetti dinner/silent auction over here in my local Senate District, and I'll be the cook. If you'd like to go, it's next Saturday (the 3rd) from 5-8 PM, over at Croatian Hall in South Saint Paul (451-1453 for directions). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 22 15:00:13 CDT 1997 Message number: 347 Reply to message number: 340 DR> If it's so easy to spread, like some kind of virus, am I to assume that DR> a lot of poeple at your school have fallen prey to the allure of the DR> homosexual lifestyle? A few have... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 22 15:01:37 CDT 1997 Message number: 348 Reply to message number: 344 F> Yes, the Bible was trying to cover its butt in both ways. But if F> Mary was a virgin, Joseph should not have been considered in the mix in any F> way. No, he should have, they were just showing that Jesus would have been from David's line even if Mary was not a virgin. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 22 15:28:30 CDT 1997 Message number: 349 Reply to message number: 341 DR> ... or the users could take the initiative and spread the number DR> themselves :) That too. I've given the number to some friends, but... ? :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 22 15:30:18 CDT 1997 Message number: 350 Reply to message number: 345 S> Froggy, anything I've missed? F> F> You have said pretty much everything I would have except one thing F> before he endorses it, live under it himself for 6 months, and THEN make up F> his mind. Ah, I never even thought of that, but also it would be very hard to find the situation of oppression like slavery and fearing every word he said would land him in a court that could condemn him without due process. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Spaghetti Dinner Date: Tue Apr 22 15:31:30 CDT 1997 Message number: 351 Reply to message number: 346 DR> We're having a spaghetti dinner/silent auction over here in my local Senat DR> District, and I'll be the cook. If you'd like to go, it's next Saturday (th DR> 3rd) from 5-8 PM, over at Croatian Hall in South Saint Paul (451-1453 for DR> directions). Oh no, that sounds cool, but I've got something going on, sorry. Have a good time, or something like that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 23 03:01:02 CDT 1997 Message number: 352 Reply to message number: 348 F> Yes, the Bible was trying to cover its butt in both ways. But if F> Mary was a virgin, Joseph should not have been considered in the mix in any F> way. FE> FE> No, he should have, they were just showing that Jesus would have been from FE> David's line even if Mary was not a virgin. Have you read the srcipture? That isn't what it says, and this opinion is a cop-out. Your original question was to show you a place where the Bible was incorrect and I did. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 23 03:02:28 CDT 1997 Message number: 353 Reply to message number: 350 F> You have said pretty much everything I would have except one thing F> before he endorses it, live under it himself for 6 months, and THEN make up F> his mind. S> S> Ah, I never even thought of that, but also it would be very hard to find the S> situation of oppression like slavery and fearing every word he said would la S> him in a court that could condemn him without due process. True, but spoiled as most of us are, something less than this would cause a powerful effect. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 23 11:53:59 CDT 1997 Message number: 354 Reply to message number: 347 DR> If it's so easy to spread, like some kind of virus, am I to assume that DR> a lot of poeple at your school have fallen prey to the allure of the DR> homosexual lifestyle? FE> FE> A few have... Do the exceptions prove the rule? If homosexualitry is so irresistable, then why hasn't everyone caught the bug? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 23 11:55:02 CDT 1997 Message number: 355 Reply to message number: 349 DR> ... or the users could take the initiative and spread the number DR> themselves :) S> S> That too. I've given the number to some friends, but... ? :) There aren't as many ways to spread BBS numbers around anymore, I really don't know ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 23 16:03:51 CDT 1997 Message number: 356 Reply to message number: 331 FE> Now, I understand you are of the Pagan beliefs correct? I base my knowlege Depends on how you define "pagan". Satanists are pretty repulsed as to what other people consider to be a satanist, and to stretch the analogy further people who know how to use dos can be considered hackers by non-hackers.. FE> right and wrong on the Bible (Directly or Indirectly) Okay, now I can follow, thanks.. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed Apr 23 16:04:50 CDT 1997 Message number: 357 Reply to message number: 332 FE> Did I speak down on Froggy for being Female? Have my messages to and from h FE> slowed??? Nope, I don't give a fuck. I was speaking along the lines of homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, toys, S&M, beastiality, tantra, etc. etc. etc.. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri Apr 25 18:31:32 CDT 1997 Message number: 358 Reply to message number: 352 F> Have you read the srcipture? That isn't what it says, and this F> opinion is a cop-out. Your original question was to show you a place where F> the Bible was incorrect and I did. You *PROVED* nothing, you brought up a questionable item in the Bible and I showed you my opinion on why it wasn't incorrect. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri Apr 25 18:32:53 CDT 1997 Message number: 359 Reply to message number: 354 DR> If homosexualitry is so irresistable, then why hasn't everyone caught the DR> bug? Poor excuse, If drugs are so irresistable then why isn't everyone doing it? Well the fact is that both of these lifestyles are on the rise, It scares me, and if you stop and think about it, it probably scares you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri Apr 25 18:34:07 CDT 1997 Message number: 360 Reply to message number: 356 FE> right and wrong on the Bible (Directly or Indirectly) BT> BT> Okay, now I can follow, thanks.. yup! Hey, We need to have a chat sometime and figure this net thing out, it's arenegade problem (or it appears) So I probably won't be much help. I'm anxious to get this thing going! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri Apr 25 18:34:54 CDT 1997 Message number: 361 Reply to message number: 357 FE> Did I speak down on Froggy for being Female? Have my messages to and from h FE> slowed??? Nope, I don't give a fuck. BT> BT> I was speaking along the lines of homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, toys, BT> S&M, beastiality, tantra, etc. etc. etc.. I really should learn to quote better, I kinda forgot what I was saying before that, I might just have to dig that old message up. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri Apr 25 18:58:35 CDT 1997 Message number: 362 Reply to message number: 358 FE> You *PROVED* nothing, you brought up a questionable item in the Bible and I FE> showed you my opinion on why it wasn't incorrect. I would never attempt to prove anything with the Bible, except maybe that it is not alwas literally accurate. Do you think that your genealogy could be correctly traced back through your neighbor's family? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 26 06:12:30 CDT 1997 Message number: 363 Reply to message number: 359 FE> Poor excuse, If drugs are so irresistable then why isn't everyone doing it? FE> Well the fact is that both of these lifestyles are on the rise, It scares m FE> and if you stop and think about it, it probably scares you. Why would anything that somebody does in their own home scare anybody? I, personally, am glad to see both on the rise as it demostrates a new trend of people thinking for themselves and making their own choices. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 26 20:05:51 CDT 1997 Message number: 364 Reply to message number: 353 F> True, but spoiled as most of us are, something less than this would F> cause a powerful effect. Yes, of course. Missing freedoms and being in poverty conditions for only a little while can radically change a person's outlook on life. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat Apr 26 20:06:51 CDT 1997 Message number: 365 Reply to message number: 355 DR> There aren't as many ways to spread BBS numbers around anymore, I really DR> don't know ... I wouldn't know, I've never really tried outside of giving a number to friends, and even that often doesn't work. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun Apr 27 12:38:21 CDT 1997 Message number: 366 Reply to message number: 365 S> I wouldn't know, I've never really tried outside of giving a number to S> friends, and even that often doesn't work. If they were cool they would prpbably call mine anyways. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon Apr 28 16:03:25 CDT 1997 Message number: 367 Reply to message number: 359 DR> If homosexualitry is so irresistable, then why hasn't everyone caught the DR> bug? FE> FE> Poor excuse, If drugs are so irresistable then why isn't everyone doing it? They're not, and I've not claimed that drugs are irresistable. You, on the other hand, seem to believe that homosexuality is just so "catchy" that as soon as people learn about it, they want to make out with people of the same sex. If homosexuality is so compelling, then you should be able to list off at least half a dozen people from school who have been exposed to "the homosexual lifestyle", and are now homosexuals themselves. FE> Well the fact is that both of these lifestyles are on the rise, It scares m FE> and if you stop and think about it, it probably scares you. The word "lifestyle" always bugs me, it implies that one part of a person's life - their religion, sexual orientation, etc - completely defines their existance. And no, homosexuals don't scare me. And neither do drug users. People with knives and guns and violent tempers scare me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue Apr 29 06:05:40 CDT 1997 Message number: 368 Reply to message number: 367 DR> The word "lifestyle" always bugs me, it implies that one part of a person' DR> life - their religion, sexual orientation, etc - completely defines their DR> existance. DR> DR> And no, homosexuals don't scare me. And neither do drug users. People with DR> knives and guns and violent tempers scare me. Exactly. And that also defines some, but not all, homosexuals and drug users. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri May 02 13:34:24 CDT 1997 Message number: 369 Reply to message number: 362 F> I would never attempt to prove anything with the Bible, except mayb F> that it is not alwas literally accurate. Do you think that your genealogy F> could be correctly traced back through your neighbor's family? uhhh, I dunno. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri May 02 13:35:29 CDT 1997 Message number: 370 Reply to message number: 363 BT> Why would anything that somebody does in their own home scare anybody? I, BT> personally, am glad to see both on the rise as it demostrates a new trend o BT> people thinking for themselves and making their own choices. What?! People doing drugs only hurts their ability to think, All they showed is potential (which everyone has) to think and act on their own. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri May 02 13:36:25 CDT 1997 Message number: 371 Reply to message number: 367 DR> They're not, and I've not claimed that drugs are irresistable. You, on the DR> other hand, seem to believe that homosexuality is just so "catchy" that as DR> soon as people learn about it, they want to make out with people of the sam DR> sex. DR> DR> If homosexuality is so compelling, then you should be able to list off at DR> least half a dozen people from school who have been exposed to "the DR> homosexual lifestyle", and are now homosexuals themselves. No, But I can see how you could have thought that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: All Subject: Zines for 6i2? Date: Fri May 02 13:39:25 CDT 1997 Message number: 372 Reply to message number: unavailable Hey, I kinda had a kewl idea here today, as some of you know there is some sharp minds in 6i2 and some really kewl people, I was kinda thinking about starting a zine for 6i2, I have all the stuff to be able to produce real magazines at my fingertips, all I need is common interest, would any of you be interested in writing or submitting articles to such a cause? Just wondering, I think it would be really kewl though. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Zines for 6i2? Date: Fri May 02 18:03:07 CDT 1997 Message number: 373 Reply to message number: 372 FE> sharp minds in 6i2 and some really kewl people, I was kinda thinking about FE> starting a zine for 6i2, I have all the stuff to be able to produce real FE> magazines at my fingertips, all I need is common interest, would any of you FE> interested in writing or submitting articles to such a cause? Depends on if you have anything interesting to write about.. If you start one up yourself and it looks really good, people will write for you.. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Zines for 6i2? Date: Sat May 03 13:51:37 CDT 1997 Message number: 374 Reply to message number: 373 BT> Depends on if you have anything interesting to write about.. If you start BT> up yourself and it looks really good, people will write for you.. Well, I could not just start by myself, I can write about some stuff but I don't want to write about stuff I don't know about just to fill up pages. How about some article submissions from yas Teebo? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun May 04 03:54:16 CDT 1997 Message number: 375 Reply to message number: 369 F> I would never attempt to prove anything with the Bible, except mayb F> that it is not alwas literally accurate. Do you think that your genealogy F> could be correctly traced back through your neighbor's family? FE> FE> uhhh, I dunno. Exactly. Probably not, buit you might actually find out that ypo are related to 7your neighbor. This is similar to a lot of informtion in the Bible. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun May 04 03:55:55 CDT 1997 Message number: 376 Reply to message number: 370 FE> What?! People doing drugs only hurts their ability to think, All they showe FE> is potential (which everyone has) to think and act on their own. That is an incorrect assumptioon. Drugs do not always hurt everyone. Some people are definitely helped by some drugs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun May 04 07:14:12 CDT 1997 Message number: 377 Reply to message number: 376 F> That is an incorrect assumptioon. Drugs do not always hurt everyon F> Some people are definitely helped by some drugs. The people who benefit are the people who are selling them, they do not help the consumer at all... 99.9999999999999999999999999999% of the people who use drugs are not helped by them... 98.99999999999999999999998 are hurt by them. Drugs are not the way to get out of problems and if you think they clear up thinking you are dead wrong, I have known (and lost) many friends to drugs, I have also watched A+ students go to F- dropouts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun May 04 08:01:53 CDT 1997 Message number: 378 Reply to message number: 377 F> That is an incorrect assumptioon. Drugs do not always hurt everyon F> Some people are definitely helped by some drugs. FE> FE> The people who benefit are the people who are selling them, they do not hel FE> Drugs are not the way to get out of problems and if you think they clear up FE> thinking you are dead wrong, I have known (and lost) many friends to drugs, FE> have also watched A+ students go to F- dropouts. You are making assumptions again. What is good for one person may be poison to another. The word "drugs" includes 2 basic classes of chemicals -- legal and illegal. There are people who abuse the drugs we call "legal" by using them incorrectly or excessively, and get hurt by the practice. The prescribing physician or the bartended profits in this case. I have watched people suffer and die from these practices too. However, I believe that your main ax to grind is with the drugs we call "illegal." Your information here may be flawed too. I have personally never heard of anyone dying from marijuana alone. There have been cases where people were whonked out on several drugs too, and there was a tragedy, but not on MJ alone.Marijuana and the opiates, notably, morphine, codeine, and less frequently -- heroin, have been used to substantially reduce pain, increase appetite, and otherwise help heal. Then again are the cases where people use vitamin and mineral supplements and believe they are healing. For years, the FDA has been trying to stop this, but, we still have personal freedoms, and are still able to live private lives in our own homes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Zines for 6i2? Date: Mon May 05 08:54:30 CDT 1997 Message number: 379 Reply to message number: 373 FE> sharp minds in 6i2 and some really kewl people, I was kinda thinking about FE> starting a zine for 6i2, I have all the stuff to be able to produce real FE> magazines at my fingertips, all I need is common interest, would any of you FE> interested in writing or submitting articles to such a cause? BT> BT> Depends on if you have anything interesting to write about.. If you start BT> up yourself and it looks really good, people will write for you.. Agreed, that's the best way to start. Get one or two trustworthy and hardworking friends together, and create a good 'zine. When people see the quality, then they'll be much more willing to write for it. These kind of things can get to be fairly self-sustaining. Here's one up Lemon's alley: you talking about a regular Zine or an E-zine? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon May 05 13:19:10 CDT 1997 Message number: 380 Reply to message number: 378 F> However, I believe that your main ax to grind is with the drugs we F> call "illegal." Your information here may be flawed too. I have personally F> never heard of anyone dying from marijuana alone. There have been cases F> where people were whonked out on several drugs too, and there was a tragedy, F> but not on MJ alone.Marijuana and the opiates, notably, morphine, codeine, a F> less frequently -- heroin, have been used to substantially reduce pain, F> increase appetite, and otherwise help heal. Then again are the cases where F> people use vitamin and mineral supplements and believe they are healing. Fo F> years, the FDA has been trying to stop this, but, we still have personal F> freedoms, and are still able to live private lives in our own homes. I have not heard of anyone who died DIRECTLY because of MJ, Although I have heard (and know of one) case where people did incredibly stupid things while they were high, Things that they would normally never do, Anything that alters our state of mind (chemical wise) should be avoided when possible, I understand though that many people are far better off on the chemical then to deal with the great pain they are taking the drug for... I think that it is wrong to use/abuse illegal drugs, I don't know of anyone who abuses Codene so I can't comment on that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon May 05 18:20:12 CDT 1997 Message number: 381 Reply to message number: 380 FE> I have not heard of anyone who died DIRECTLY because of MJ, Although I have FE> heard (and know of one) case where people did incredibly stupid things whil FE> they were high, Things that they would normally never do, Anything that alt Personally, I'd much rather run into a dope fiend than a drunk in a dark alley - drunk people are violent, potheads are couch potatoes. Some drugs are worse than others. The only problem being, we don't decide whether a drug is going to eb legal by its affects on people. We just base it on social prejudices. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed May 07 13:14:20 CDT 1997 Message number: 382 Reply to message number: 381 DR> Personally, I'd much rather run into a dope fiend than a drunk in a dark DR> alley - drunk people are violent, potheads are couch potatoes. True, drunks are a danger for a shorter amount of time. A pothead will carry the damage from the one joint for months. When you are drunk you wake up the next morning with a hangover, when you are stoned you wake up the next morning with brain damage. It also carries more serious side affects. DR> Some drugs are worse than others. The only problem being, we don't decide DR> whether a drug is going to eb legal by its affects on people. We just base DR> on social prejudices. Prejudice is when you judge something without reason, not when you judge something because there is actully a reason to judge. If you understood that last part feel free to comment on it... hehe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Thu May 08 10:26:13 CDT 1997 Message number: 383 Reply to message number: 380 FE> wrong to use/abuse illegal drugs, I don't know of anyone who abuses Codene FE> I can't comment on that. Couldn't it also be said than, since you obviously don't know everybody that uses drugs, that your assumptions could be way off? I'm assuming that you don't know a large amount of people that use drugs for mind expansion as opposed to mind destruction, since these are not the people that you associate with. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Big Teebo Subject: la Date: Thu May 08 11:46:45 CDT 1997 Message number: 384 Reply to message number: 383 BT> Couldn't it also be said than, since you obviously don't know everybody tha BT> uses drugs, that your assumptions could be way off? I'm assuming that you BT> don't know a large amount of people that use drugs for mind expansion as BT> opposed to mind destruction, since these are not the people that you associ BT> with. When was the last time that you ran across someone using drugs to expand their minds? Read a book or something. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: la Date: Thu May 08 11:54:19 CDT 1997 Message number: 385 Reply to message number: 384 FE> When was the last time that you ran across someone using drugs to expand th Today. FE> minds? Read a book or something. Yes, please. The Great Drug War by Arnold S. Trebach is a classic. I can't help but notice that you don't have any suggestions.. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: la Date: Sun May 11 16:25:14 CDT 1997 Message number: 386 Reply to message number: 385 ^1-=> Quoting Big Teebo to Fatal Error <=- FE> When was the last time that you ran across someone using drugs to expand th BT> BT> Today. Oh really, expand on that a bit. BT> Yes, please. The Great Drug War by Arnold S. Trebach is a classic. I can' BT> help but notice that you don't have any suggestions.. Why should I? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KRUSTY To: FATAL ERROR Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue May 13 12:21:36 CDT 1997 Message number: 387 Reply to message number: unavailable FE>they were high, Things that they would normally never do, Anything that alt FE>our state of mind (chemical wise) should be avoided when possible, I Eh. Just so you know, practically anything you can think of can alter your brain chemistry/state of mind. Caffeine, food, sunlight probably.. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Third rule IS don't talk to commies ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Krusty Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue May 13 16:09:16 CDT 1997 Message number: 388 Reply to message number: 387 K> Eh. Just so you know, practically anything you can think of can alter K> your brain chemistry/state of mind. Caffeine, food, sunlight probably.. Well yes, some chemicals more then others. Some (like caffeine) alter your state of mind more then others (LSD). Caffeine is normally used in smaller dosage, and if you ask me, I think that people (through the generations) are building a tolerance to caffeine. I don't know if that is possible but it seems to me like it's possible. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Tue May 13 17:06:19 CDT 1997 Message number: 389 Reply to message number: 382 DR> Personally, I'd much rather run into a dope fiend than a drunk in a dark DR> alley - drunk people are violent, potheads are couch potatoes. FE> True, drunks are a danger for a shorter amount of time. A pothead will car FE> the damage from the one joint for months. I don't follow you here. How do the effects of marijuana stay with someone longer than the effects of alcohol? FE> When you are drunk you wake up th FE> next morning with a hangover, when you are stoned you wake up the next morn FE> with brain damage. It also carries more serious side affects. Both marijuana and alcohol cause "brain damage", in the sense that they both kill off a few brain cells. But as for the seriousness of the side effects, that's kind of a value judgement. Personally, I think that drunks are more dangerous than potheads - I've never known someone high on pot to do anything but sit around and munch on Doritos, whereas drunks have a habit of getting into fights and trying to drive home while under the influence. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue May 13 17:08:20 CDT 1997 Message number: 390 Reply to message number: 388 FE> dosage, and if you ask me, I think that people (through the generations) ar FE> building a tolerance to caffeine. I don't know if that is possible but it FE> seems to me like it's possible. That's an odd theory. I'm not necessarily saying it's wrong, just odd. How would such a tolerance be passed from one person to another ...? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Wed May 14 12:18:33 CDT 1997 Message number: 391 Reply to message number: 389 DR> I don't follow you here. How do the effects of marijuana stay with someone DR> longer than the effects of alcohol? Well, Marijuana stays in your system longer, alcohol causes some damage to brain cells and your liver, Marijuana can lead to far worse things, things that will far outlast being drunk. I really don't think that pot is as bad as some of the "harder" drugs, but I think far too many people don't know the dangers of pot. DR> Both marijuana and alcohol cause "brain damage", in the sense that they bo DR> kill off a few brain cells. But as for the seriousness of the side effects, DR> that's kind of a value judgement. Personally, I think that drunks are more DR> dangerous than potheads - I've never known someone high on pot to do anythi DR> but sit around and munch on Doritos, whereas drunks have a habit of getting DR> into fights and trying to drive home while under the influence. Well, it depends on how you look at it, There are FAR more people who get drunk, and a small chunk of them do things like get into fights and drive home drunk, not near as many people do pot. So your not going to hear as many stories about people doing things while they are on pot. If as many people got stoned as people who got drunk we would really notice the effects of pot. Good comments, even I will admit. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed May 14 12:20:03 CDT 1997 Message number: 392 Reply to message number: 390 DR> That's an odd theory. I'm not necessarily saying it's wrong, just odd. DR> DR> How would such a tolerance be passed from one person to another ...? It's just something I was thinking about one day and sounded good. Well, if there are many alchoholics in your family you have a better chance of becoming an alcoholic. I think that it's passed from mothers to their children, that is possible isn't it? I don't know, this is going to require some research. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: la Date: Wed May 14 16:54:04 CDT 1997 Message number: 393 Reply to message number: 386 BT> Today. FE> Oh really, expand on that a bit. Today. When I saw somebody. When I talked to somebody. You asked me for a date, what more are you looking for and to what end? BT> Yes, please. The Great Drug War by Arnold S. Trebach is a classic. I can' BT> help but notice that you don't have any suggestions.. FE> FE> Why should I? You told me to "read a book", I suggested the same and even gave you a suggestion. I already know why _I_ should, and that's to expand my mind, so I can bypass the obvious retort. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Wed May 14 16:56:12 CDT 1997 Message number: 394 Reply to message number: 391 FE> Well, Marijuana stays in your system longer, alcohol causes some damage to FE> brain cells and your liver, Marijuana can lead to far worse things, things FE> that will far outlast being drunk. I really don't think that pot is as bad Can it lead to dependency? Alcholism? Wife/child beating? Total loss of the will to live? *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: la Date: Wed May 14 17:54:38 CDT 1997 Message number: 395 Reply to message number: 393 BT> You told me to "read a book", I suggested the same and even gave you a BT> suggestion. I already know why _I_ should, and that's to expand my mind, BT> so I can bypass the obvious retort. No, I meant anyone taking drugs to expand their minds should read a book. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Wed May 14 17:57:44 CDT 1997 Message number: 396 Reply to message number: 394 FE> Well, Marijuana stays in your system longer, alcohol causes some damage to FE> brain cells and your liver, Marijuana can lead to far worse things, things FE> that will far outlast being drunk. I really don't think that pot is as bad BT> BT> Can it lead to dependency? Alcholism? Wife/child beating? Total loss of BT> will to live? Dependency... yes. Alcholism, well, no, it's pot, how could you be an alcoholic from pot? You could be the equivalent, a pot head. Total loss of will to live? Yes. Yes,Yes,Yes,Yes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: la Date: Thu May 15 15:50:07 CDT 1997 Message number: 397 Reply to message number: 395 FE> No, I meant anyone taking drugs to expand their minds should read a book. Well if someone is venturing out to expand their mind, wouldn't it be logical that they would be well-read on many aspects considering they would take advantage of the library system which is significantly cheaper than any drug? *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Thu May 15 15:53:08 CDT 1997 Message number: 398 Reply to message number: 396 FE> Dependency... yes. Alcholism, well, no, it's pot, how could you be an Exactly, it was a trick question.. FE> alcoholic from pot? You could be the equivalent, a pot head. Total loss of I don't see how alcoholisim and a "pot head" effect are even remotly related other than the connection that they are foreign substances. BT> Can it lead to dependency? Alcholism? Wife/child beating? Total loss of BT> will to live? FE> Yes,Yes,Yes,Yes. Which leads me to my next point... I agree with you, but to what degree and concern should be subjected? You can answer yes for these questions as a result of television, the types of foods you eat, society, depression, rock collections - everything influences our actions in some minute way. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri May 16 11:37:14 CDT 1997 Message number: 399 Reply to message number: 392 FE> It's just something I was thinking about one day and sounded good. Well, if FE> there are many alchoholics in your family you have a better chance of becom FE> an alcoholic. I think that it's passed from mothers to their children, that FE> possible isn't it? I don't know, this is going to require some research. Two seperate issues here, one sees that tolerance to alchohol isn't passed along from person to person even if tendencies are. Plus a lot of the tendency to alchoholism could be environmental rather than biological. If there were to be a progressive tolerance to caffeine, it would have to be in the genetic material, and such an evolution would be unlikely based on accepted principals of evolution, such as a trait only becomes common by random chance or if it offers the possessors a better chance at survival which wouldn't be the case for caffeine tolerance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Specter Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri May 16 14:23:42 CDT 1997 Message number: 400 Reply to message number: 399 S> Two seperate issues here, one sees that tolerance to alchohol isn't passed S> along from person to person even if tendencies are. Plus a lot of the S> tendency to alchoholism could be environmental rather than biological. If S> there were to be a progressive tolerance to caffeine, it would have to be in S> the genetic material, and such an evolution would be unlikely based on S> accepted principals of evolution, such as a trait only becomes common by S> random chance or if it offers the possessors a better chance at survival whi S> wouldn't be the case for caffeine tolerance. evolution principles are wrong, there are genes that are passed from parent to child that prevent developing certain diseases, I saw it on CNN ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Zines for 6i2? Date: Sat May 17 02:58:47 CDT 1997 Message number: 401 Reply to message number: 372 FE> Hey, I kinda had a kewl idea here today, as some of you know there is some FE> sharp minds in 6i2 and some really kewl people, I was kinda thinking about FE> starting a zine for 6i2, I have all the stuff to be able to produce real FE> magazines at my fingertips, all I need is common interest, would any of you My my.. now Fatal Error catches the let's start a 'zine bug :). You're #5. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat May 17 03:00:22 CDT 1997 Message number: 402 Reply to message number: 377 FE> The people who benefit are the people who are selling them, they do not hel FE> the consumer at all... 99.9999999999999999999999999999% of the people who u FE> drugs are not helped by them... 98.99999999999999999999998 are hurt by them What about drugs like Tylenol, Zantac (heart medication I believe), Pennicilin and Amoxicillin (well they're losing effectiveness, but you get the idea). Those are terribly harmful! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat May 17 03:02:34 CDT 1997 Message number: 403 Reply to message number: 382 FE> True, drunks are a danger for a shorter amount of time. A pothead will carr FE> the damage from the one joint for months. When you are drunk you wake up th FE> next morning with a hangover, when you are stoned you wake up the next morn FE> with brain damage. It also carries more serious side affects. Fatal, please support these statements, from my experiences this is not always true. If you think alcohol doesn't cause brain damage either you're quite wrong. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: la Date: Sat May 17 03:09:29 CDT 1997 Message number: 404 Reply to message number: 384 BT> uses drugs, that your assumptions could be way off? I'm assuming that you BT> don't know a large amount of people that use drugs for mind expansion as BT> opposed to mind destruction, since these are not the people that you associ FE> When was the last time that you ran across someone using drugs to expand th FE> minds? Read a book or something. I personally have not run across many that *truly* use drugs for mind expansion, and most generally do not and want to be cool or run away from problems. If someone uses a drug for mind expansion you will probably not know that they do unless they tell you (I don't consider things that can kill you within a decade "mind expansion drugs" ie cocaine). Also, the people I do know that use drugs for mind expansion purposes or non-destructive ones are quite physically fit and do well in school. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Sat May 17 03:21:15 CDT 1997 Message number: 405 Reply to message number: 398 BT> Which leads me to my next point... I agree with you, but to what degree an BT> concern should be subjected? You can answer yes for these questions as a BT> result of television, the types of foods you eat, society, depression, rock BT> collections - everything influences our actions in some minute way. It's itneresting you bring up television. I have never been a big television watcher, but during about November of this year, I got fed up with TV, and decided to stop watching it, with exceptions being *maybe* watching a movie on TV (not include made for TV crap), and weather reports. I will still watch movies on a VCR. It's interesting the results that have ocurred from refusing to watch TV. I would say that the most noticeable thing is becoming much less agressive and tending less to use "violence" to solve problems. I'm putting the word violence in quotations because I have never been a violent person, so I mean dealing calmly with someone I am angry at as opposed to yelling and screaming at them which could possibly intimidate them (a "violent" response). It's also made me much more cynical and in my judgements, and I take even less for the face value (although this may be more attributed to what I do instead of watching TV). It's also interesting how stupid it sounds to hear people talking about TV when you don't watch it. I could list of other changes, but I won't bother unless someone is intrigued by this, I imagine that many others here don't watch TV either. In conclusion, I was bored and felt like writing this, and my spelling is awfully sad all of the sudden. m00 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KRUSTY To: FATAL ERROR Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat May 17 07:01:30 CDT 1997 Message number: 406 Reply to message number: unavailable FE>S> Two seperate issues here, one sees that tolerance to alchohol isn't pass FE>S> along from person to person even if tendencies are. Plus a lot of the FE>S> tendency to alchoholism could be environmental rather than biological. FE>S> there were to be a progressive tolerance to caffeine, it would have to b FE>S> the genetic material, and such an evolution would be unlikely based on FE>S> accepted principals of evolution, such as a trait only becomes common by FE>S> random chance or if it offers the possessors a better chance at survival FE>S> wouldn't be the case for caffeine tolerance. FE>evolution principles are wrong, there are genes that are passed from parent FE>child that prevent developing certain diseases, I saw it on CNN I think that the "genes that are passed from parent to child that prevent developing certain diseases" follows right along with evolutionary principles. I believe the principles state that this disease-resistant gene is a "freak of nature" and just happened by chance, but because it offers the child a better chance at survival, hopefully it would become the norm for humans' genetic makeup. If the freak-gene is inferior, the person who has that trait won't survive and the gene won't become part of humanity. Ugh, been awhile since I've taken any biology. --- þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Poke poke poke yer eyes out ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat May 17 09:36:10 CDT 1997 Message number: 407 Reply to message number: 400 FE> evolution principles are wrong, there are genes that are passed from parent FE> child that prevent developing certain diseases, I saw it on CNN Again you're confusing two issues. Yes there are genes that pass from parent to child that prevent certain diseases, that's propogated, because they offer their possessors a better chance at survival over other people in an area with high concentrations of that disease. This is 100% in step with evolutionary principles, in fact it's often used as a demonstration of evolutionary principles. Now again back to the point of my message, genes don't develop in one person based on their use of something else and then get passed on, they develop due to random chance and then if the gene is positive it may aid survival and increase its chance of recurring. Tolerance isn't kept in the genes which are passed from parent to child, it's a developed trait due to environmental factors, specifically tendency to drink caffeinated beverages. The increase in caffeine tolerance is more likely due to an increase in general caffeine consumption. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Krusty Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sat May 17 09:38:37 CDT 1997 Message number: 408 Reply to message number: 406 K> I think that the "genes that are passed from parent to child that K> prevent developing certain diseases" follows right along with K> evolutionary principles. I believe the principles state that this K> disease-resistant gene is a "freak of nature" and just happened by K> chance, but because it offers the child a better chance at survival, K> hopefully it would become the norm for humans' genetic makeup. If the K> freak-gene is inferior, the person who has that trait won't survive and K> the gene won't become part of humanity. K> Ugh, been awhile since I've taken any biology. And yet you have a mastery of the factors in this situation. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: Zines for 6i2? Date: Sun May 18 09:48:31 CDT 1997 Message number: 409 Reply to message number: 401 TI> My my.. now Fatal Error catches the let's start a 'zine bug :). You're what do you mean #5? You mean like the 5th person? I think the whole damn area code should all get together and make this work. You have some exp in zines do you not? What is your opinion? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun May 18 09:51:34 CDT 1997 Message number: 410 Reply to message number: 402 TI> What about drugs like Tylenol, Zantac (heart medication I believe), TI> Pennicilin and Amoxicillin (well they're losing effectiveness, but you get TI> idea). Those are terribly harmful! Only if they are taken for no reason, you take Zantac so your heart does not stop beating or something like that, the risk of not taking it is far more harmful then what the medication itself does. Such as with the other drugs, those drugs you listed are not habit forming, such as PCP, Heroin, etc. those drugs (I am thinking of Pennicilin right now) are taken for a short amount of time to get rid of bacterea in the body, then they are not used until they are needed again. Drugs like Cocane which were originally used to slow the blood flow of a person during open surgury would be just fine if they were not habit forming. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun May 18 09:53:05 CDT 1997 Message number: 411 Reply to message number: 403 FE> True, drunks are a danger for a shorter amount of time. A pothead will carr FE> the damage from the one joint for months. When you are drunk you wake up th FE> next morning with a hangover, when you are stoned you wake up the next morn FE> with brain damage. It also carries more serious side affects. TI> TI> Fatal, please support these statements, from my experiences this is not TI> always true. If you think alcohol doesn't cause brain damage either you're TI> quite wrong. You need to think of the amount of brain damage. You also need to think of the other affects that Pot (or any other illegal drugs has) Now, Alcohol is also a drug, it's legal though. Neither is good for you, one is worse for you. Guess which one. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: la Date: Sun May 18 09:56:15 CDT 1997 Message number: 412 Reply to message number: 404 TI> I personally have not run across many that *truly* use drugs for mind TI> expansion, and most generally do not and want to be cool or run away from TI> problems. If someone uses a drug for mind expansion you will probably not k TI> that they do unless they tell you (I don't consider things that can kill yo TI> within a decade "mind expansion drugs" ie cocaine). Also, the people I do k TI> that use drugs for mind expansion purposes or non-destructive ones are quit TI> physically fit and do well in school. Sure, I know people who do just fine in school and do drugs, Listen, I did cocane for a few months back when I was in 7th grade, I know first hand how bad it fucks you up, I could not even talk right, To this day I can tell that I am going to have damaged speaking skills forever. It did a ton of bad things to me, My grades went down to 3 F's and 1 D on my report card, and they still passed me out of the 7th grade, then we moved here and I stopped, now im getting A's B's and an occasional C. There is just no reason to do drugs... It's fucking dumb. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Krusty Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun May 18 09:58:30 CDT 1997 Message number: 413 Reply to message number: 406 K> I think that the "genes that are passed from parent to child that K> prevent developing certain diseases" follows right along with K> evolutionary principles. I believe the principles state that this K> disease-resistant gene is a "freak of nature" and just happened by K> chance, but because it offers the child a better chance at survival, K> hopefully it would become the norm for humans' genetic makeup. If the K> freak-gene is inferior, the person who has that trait won't survive and you lucky, im in Biology right now and it fucking sucks! I think that it would be a great thing if we could find a gene that prevents Cancer or something and then like inject it into a pregnant mother or something like that, I don't know though, I don't think it's a very good idea to play God, I think that if we could do that we would learn a considerable amount though. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun May 18 17:13:01 CDT 1997 Message number: 414 Reply to message number: 410 FE> Only if they are taken for no reason, you take Zantac so your heart does no FE> stop beating or something like that, the risk of not taking it is far more * do you mean XANAX which is a CNS depressant? zanTAC is for excess stomach acid. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Sun May 18 17:40:25 CDT 1997 Message number: 415 Reply to message number: 392 DR> That's an odd theory. I'm not necessarily saying it's wrong, just odd. DR> DR> How would such a tolerance be passed from one person to another ...? FE> FE> It's just something I was thinking about one day and sounded good. Well, if FE> there are many alchoholics in your family you have a better chance of becom FE> an alcoholic. I think that it's passed from mothers to their children, that FE> possible isn't it? I don't know, this is going to require some research. What struck me as odd was how you stated that people might be building up a tolerance to alcohol over the generations, which is a kind of biological Lamarckism - a belief that aquired characteristics can somehow be passed down through the generations. On the other hand, there are most definately genetic and environmental predispositins to alcoholism, and children of alcoholics are much more likely to be alcoholics themselves. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Evolution Date: Sun May 18 17:43:43 CDT 1997 Message number: 416 Reply to message number: 400 S> Two seperate issues here, one sees that tolerance to alchohol isn't passed S> along from person to person even if tendencies are. Plus a lot of the FE> evolution principles are wrong, That's a very bold statement. Do you care to back it up? FE> There are genes that are passed from parent FE> child that prevent developing certain diseases, I saw it on CNN There are immune cells which are passed from parent to child via mitochondria, through the womb, and also through mother's milk. But other than genetic damage, one's DNA is not altered after birth. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Sun May 18 17:46:37 CDT 1997 Message number: 417 Reply to message number: 405 TI> it sounds to hear people talking about TV when you don't watch it. I could TI> list of other changes, but I won't bother unless someone is intrigued by th TI> I imagine that many others here don't watch TV either. In conclusion, I was I don't *watch* much TV, it tends to be background noise as I do my homework. About the only shows I try to catch regularly are Bablyon 5, Highlander and the Simpsons ... I've never thought of TV as particularly bad, or good. Like most things, it's 90% crap, but you can find the good programming if you look hard enough. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: la Date: Mon May 19 09:57:53 CDT 1997 Message number: 418 Reply to message number: 404 TI> that they do unless they tell you (I don't consider things that can kill yo TI> within a decade "mind expansion drugs" ie cocaine). Also, the people I do k But, by definition, it would still be considered "mind expansion." It's an experience, albeit a destructive one. Who would really care if your going to kill you brain cells if your going to die in 5 hours anyways? *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon May 19 10:01:19 CDT 1997 Message number: 419 Reply to message number: 411 FE> other affects that Pot (or any other illegal drugs has) Now, Alcohol is als FE> drug, it's legal though. Neither is good for you, one is worse for you. Gue FE> which one. Legality has little to do with it, and to say what is "worse" at this point is entirly up to opinion. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: la Date: Mon May 19 10:08:40 CDT 1997 Message number: 420 Reply to message number: 412 FE> Sure, I know people who do just fine in school and do drugs, Listen, I did FE> cocane for a few months back when I was in 7th grade, I know first hand how FE> bad it fucks you up, I could not even talk right, To this day I can tell th FE> I am going to have damaged speaking skills forever. It did a ton of bad thi FE> to me, My grades went down to 3 F's and 1 D on my report card, and they sti FE> passed me out of the 7th grade, then we moved here and I stopped, now im I just thought I'd mention on a personal note that this was a great message of yours, perfect first hand cause and effect. Thanks.. FE> getting A's B's and an occasional C. There is just no reason to do drugs... FE> It's fucking dumb. Yes, for you in this situation, it is. And I would agree that for at least 95% of the population, they cannot handle illegal drugs and should not have the ability to be exposed to them. There are much more things they need to learn about themselves and others first before they could ever handle them. However, what I am mostly concerned with (not something that I've really been talking about on here) is the crime culture that surrounds prohibition, that the violence of all sorts would be reduced if drugs were legalized, and all those meaningless millions that are thrown at winning the war on innanimate objects could be spent on research, education, and rehab. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Cosima Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon May 19 12:52:11 CDT 1997 Message number: 421 Reply to message number: 414 C> do you mean XANAX which is a CNS depressant? zanTAC is for excess stomach C> acid. Okay, I was mixed up, so was the person who wrote me the original message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon May 19 12:53:03 CDT 1997 Message number: 422 Reply to message number: 415 DR> On the other hand, there are most definately genetic and environmental DR> predispositins to alcoholism, and children of alcoholics are much more like DR> to be alcoholics themselves. Well, People who are born into alcoholic families do have a tennancy to run in the family. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Evolution Date: Mon May 19 12:54:56 CDT 1997 Message number: 423 Reply to message number: 416 FE> evolution principles are wrong, DR> DR> That's a very bold statement. Do you care to back it up? Not everything can be backed up, I don't think the world "evolved" I beleive that people were put on the earth and may have adapted to their environments this evolution I do beleive in. DR> There are immune cells which are passed from parent to child via DR> mitochondria, through the womb, and also through mother's milk. But other DR> than genetic damage, one's DNA is not altered after birth. Are you sure? Can you not develop them farther then they already are? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon May 19 12:56:18 CDT 1997 Message number: 424 Reply to message number: 419 FE> other affects that Pot (or any other illegal drugs has) Now, Alcohol is als FE> drug, it's legal though. Neither is good for you, one is worse for you. Gue FE> which one. BT> BT> Legality has little to do with it, and to say what is "worse" at this point BT> entirly up to opinion. Some opinions are wrong. And in this case mine is correct. If you gather all the info and measure all the effects, the illegal drugs are going to have a negitive effect on people worse then alcohol. Now, of course that depends on the person. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: la Date: Mon May 19 12:57:27 CDT 1997 Message number: 425 Reply to message number: 420 BT> I just thought I'd mention on a personal note that this was a great message BT> yours, perfect first hand cause and effect. Thanks.. You are all teaching me well. BT> Yes, for you in this situation, it is. And I would agree that for at least BT> 95% of the population, they cannot handle illegal drugs and should not have BT> the ability to be exposed to them. There are much more things they need to BT> learn about themselves and others first before they could ever handle them. BT> However, what I am mostly concerned with (not something that I've really be BT> talking about on here) is the crime culture that surrounds prohibition, You nailed it right on the head that time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon May 19 13:25:50 CDT 1997 Message number: 426 Reply to message number: 424 FE> Some opinions are wrong. And in this case mine is correct. If you gather al By definition, how can an opinion by true/false? It's very nature is subjective, if it can be wrong than it isn't an opinion anymore. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THROCKMORTON To: THE INVISIBLE MAN Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon May 19 14:54:10 CDT 1997 Message number: 427 Reply to message number: unavailable TIM>FE> The people who benefit are the people who are selling them, they do no >FE> the consumer at all... 99.9999999999999999999999999999% of the people >FE> drugs are not helped by them... 98.99999999999999999999998 are hurt by TIM> What about drugs like Tylenol, Zantac (heart medication I believe), >Pennicilin and Amoxicillin (well they're losing effectiveness, but you get >idea). Those are terribly harmful! With penicillin and the other anti bacterial drugs, It's not that people are building up a tolerance to them, it's the little buggies that are developing a tolerance. --- þ OLX 1.53 þ Thesaurus: ancient reptile with an excellent vocabulary. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THROCKMORTON To: FATAL ERROR Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon May 19 14:54:11 CDT 1997 Message number: 428 Reply to message number: unavailable FE>evolution principles are wrong, there are genes that are passed from parent >child that prevent developing certain diseases, I saw it on CNN Most of the genes have no action, positive or negative. If a gene ends up having a negative affect it will eventually be weeded out of the gene pool through early death of the carriers. Where it gets interesting is when you have a gene that has both positive and negative actions. The best example of this I've heard of is that many Blacks carry a gene that increases the odds of getting sickle cell anemia. Negative gene you ask? Not necessarily so. The same gene has been found to also confer a degree of immunity to malaria. --- þ OLX 1.53 þ Time flies like wind. Fruit flies like pears. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THROCKMORTON To: DAEDALUS RISING Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Mon May 19 14:54:12 CDT 1997 Message number: 429 Reply to message number: unavailable DR>DR> Personally, I'd much rather run into a dope fiend than a drunk in a da >DR> alley - drunk people are violent, potheads are couch potatoes. DR>FE> True, drunks are a danger for a shorter amount of time. A pothead will >FE> the damage from the one joint for months. DR> I don't follow you here. How do the effects of marijuana stay with someone >longer than the effects of alcohol? Doesn't pot have some of the same tars and other stuff that tobacco has? This would tend to lead to long term long damage and increased risk of cancer. --- þ OLX 1.53 þ Tried to play my shoehorn... all I got was footnotes! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Throckmorton Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Mon May 19 17:00:37 CDT 1997 Message number: 430 Reply to message number: 429 T> Doesn't pot have some of the same tars and other stuff that tobacco has? T> This would tend to lead to long term long damage and increased risk of T> cancer. True, but you must keep in context the fact that it would be somewhat difficult to become a "three-pack a day" marijuana smoker. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Evolution Date: Mon May 19 18:12:14 CDT 1997 Message number: 431 Reply to message number: 423 DR> That's a very bold statement. Do you care to back it up? FE> FE> Not everything can be backed up, I believe that every sincere statement that someone makes can be backed up. If nothing else, one can base their beliefs on faith or pure emotion. That may not be a very wise way to go about finding the truth, but they are the basis for many a belief. FE> I don't think the world "evolved" I beleiv FE> that people were put on the earth and may have adapted to their environment FE> this evolution I do beleive in. Put on the Earth by who, praytell? And if people were put on the Earth, then why would they need to adapt to their environment? Why not just create people who are already adapted? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Mon May 19 18:14:05 CDT 1997 Message number: 432 Reply to message number: 424 FE> Some opinions are wrong. And in this case mine is correct. If you gather al FE> the info and measure all the effects, the illegal drugs are going to have a FE> negitive effect on people worse then alcohol. Now, of course that depends o FE> the person. It depends on which criteria you want to base your determination on. If I want to find the drug which is the cause of the most domestic violence per capita, I'd probably find alcohol at the top of the list. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Throckmorton Subject: RE: Drugs Date: Mon May 19 18:15:52 CDT 1997 Message number: 433 Reply to message number: 427 T> With penicillin and the other anti bacterial drugs, It's not that people T> are building up a tolerance to them, it's the little buggies that are T> developing a tolerance. It's kind of cool to realize that not only are we humans becoming more tolerant, so are the critters. "Cumbaya, my friend ...." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Evolution Date: Mon May 19 18:20:45 CDT 1997 Message number: 434 Reply to message number: 423 DR> There are immune cells which are passed from parent to child via DR> mitochondria, through the womb, and also through mother's milk. But other DR> than genetic damage, one's DNA is not altered after birth. FE> FE> Are you sure? Can you not develop them farther then they already are? After birth, with few exceptions, your genes are with you until you die. Change to this genetic structure is generally a very very bad thing - Cancer, for example, is a cluster of genetically damaged cells. You cannot develop your genes through any normal, everyday activity. While it is theoretically possible to go in and manually splice genes in a living host, that technology is decades away, if ever. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Zines for 6i2? Date: Tue May 20 12:07:38 CDT 1997 Message number: 435 Reply to message number: 409 TI> My my.. now Fatal Error catches the let's start a 'zine bug :). You're FE> FE> what do you mean #5? You mean like the 5th person? I think the whole damn a Exactly. Keep in mind that you're more than the 5th person, just talking about recent times. FE> are code should all get together and make this work. You FE> have some experience in zines do you not? What is your opinion? Well, I guess you could say I have some experience in 'zines... but writing them isn't really my thing (you can ask teebo, mogel, or smurfbon all about it :) ). I don't mean to discourage you from trying, but from what I've seen such 'zines never work. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue May 20 12:10:55 CDT 1997 Message number: 436 Reply to message number: 411 FE> True, drunks are a danger for a shorter amount of time. A pothead will carr FE> the damage from the one joint for months. When you are drunk you wake up th FE> next morning with a hangover, when you are stoned you wake up the next morn FE> You need to think of the amount of brain damage. You also need to think of FE> other affects that Pot (or any other illegal drugs has) Now, Alcohol is als FE> drug, it's legal though. Neither is good for you, one is worse for you. Gue FE> which one. To tell you the truth, I don't think they have really "measured" the amount of brain damage each causes. I agree alcohol is a drug. Neither is necessarily good for you, but can have positive effects, such as wine and aspirin helping you to live longer. The key to this seems to be MODERATION. In my humble opinion (and scientific opinion) alcohol is worse for you even though it is socially accepted in many cases. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Tue May 20 12:13:48 CDT 1997 Message number: 437 Reply to message number: 417 DR> I don't *watch* much TV, it tends to be background noise as I do my homewo DR> About the only shows I try to catch regularly are Bablyon 5, Highlander and DR> the Simpsons ... I'm talking avoiding all TV.. Then it cuts off the urge to channel surf and forces me to ignore commercials. Just saying what I do, no response needed to this line (aka don't read into it.). DR> I've never thought of TV as particularly bad, or good. Like most things, i DR> 90% crap, but you can find the good programming if you look hard enough. It seems to be the truth most things are 90% crap doesn't it :). 'Mind suggesting some good programming? All I've seen so far is the occasional A&E show, and when PBS aired Manufacturing Consent. OK, and some public access TV like "Collectin' Stuff with Butz and Witz", but I won't count that as something I "really" watch ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Throckmorton Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue May 20 12:15:23 CDT 1997 Message number: 438 Reply to message number: 427 T> With penicillin and the other anti bacterial drugs, It's not that people T> are building up a tolerance to them, it's the little buggies that are T> developing a tolerance. Unfortunately so. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most if this is due to the fact that the medications are used improperly (not for a long enough time period) so some bacteria is still left which is resistant to the medication? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Cosima Subject: Re: Gays Date: Tue May 20 12:23:56 CDT 1997 Message number: 439 Reply to message number: 414 FE> Only if they are taken for no reason, you take Zantac so your heart does no FE> stop beating or something like that, the risk of not taking it is far more C> * C> do you mean XANAX which is a CNS depressant? zanTAC is for excess stomach C> acid. I made the mistake first. Big error, but it didn't really matter too much in the context. Thanks for the correction, now if I run into someone with heart probs I'll know to reach for the Xanax and not he Zantac :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Tue May 20 16:57:10 CDT 1997 Message number: 440 Reply to message number: 437 TI> It seems to be the truth most things are 90% crap doesn't it :). 'Mind TI> suggesting some good programming? All I've seen so far is the occasional A& There are three great shows on TV right now, and they're all on fox sunday nights! Simpsons (19:00), Xena: Warrior Princess (21:00), and Hercules (22:00). Better than street drugs, it's the drug of the nation! *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Gays Date: Thu May 22 15:01:23 CDT 1997 Message number: 441 Reply to message number: 426 BT> By definition, how can an opinion by true/false? It's very nature is BT> subjective, if it can be wrong than it isn't an opinion anymore. What is an opinion to one person could be a fact to another. Some people know the answer to things, and some people have opinions. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Throckmorton Subject: Re: Gays Date: Thu May 22 15:02:27 CDT 1997 Message number: 442 Reply to message number: 428 T> Where it gets interesting is when you have a gene that has both positive T> and negative actions. The best example of this I've heard of is that T> many Blacks carry a gene that increases the odds of getting sickle cell T> anemia. Negative gene you ask? Not necessarily so. The same gene has T> been found to also confer a degree of immunity to malaria. Do you think that it could have (over a span of time) developed amoung groups of blacks while they were exposed to malaria or something like that? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Evolution Date: Thu May 22 15:03:38 CDT 1997 Message number: 443 Reply to message number: 431 DR> And if people were put on the Earth, then why would they need to adapt to DR> their environment? Why not just create people who are already adapted? One thing I have noticed on this board, people do tend to think they have the answer to everything, when in fact, not everything was meant to be answered, and some things never will be. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Gays Date: Thu May 22 15:06:01 CDT 1997 Message number: 444 Reply to message number: 432 DR> If I want to find the drug which is the cause of the most domestic violenc DR> per capita, I'd probably find alcohol at the top of the list. Ahh, you would probably end up with that result, when they servey not every drug/violence incedent would be reported, for the simple fact that the person on the drugs would be relectant to admit they were on drugs when they assalted. Another thing, people tend to use alcohol like it can't hurt them, if its safe it's legal right? Nope. I think people tend to be MORE carful while using drugs, they know there is bad things that can happen while on that drugs, people on alcohol really don't take time to think as much. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Evolution Date: Thu May 22 15:07:53 CDT 1997 Message number: 445 Reply to message number: 434 DR> You cannot develop your genes through any normal, everyday activity. While DR> is theoretically possible to go in and manually splice genes in a living DR> host, that technology is decades away, if ever. I happen to disagree, I think if a family line has a certain trait in it that s strong enough that it will be passed on. Such as if you made a line of people lift weights all day, their kids also, and their kids, and their kids, your going to have some strong people, because the bodies of the parents ADAPTED to meet the needs of everyday life. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: Zines for 6i2? Date: Thu May 22 15:08:53 CDT 1997 Message number: 446 Reply to message number: 435 TI> Well, I guess you could say I have some experience in 'zines... but TI> writing them isn't really my thing (you can ask teebo, mogel, or smurfbon a TI> about it :) ). I don't mean to discourage you from trying, but from what I' TI> seen such 'zines never work. The great majority don't, then there are those like 2600 that started small and got larger, and are now world wide. `Anything is possible. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: Gays Date: Thu May 22 15:10:45 CDT 1997 Message number: 447 Reply to message number: 436 TI> To tell you the truth, I don't think they have really "measured" the TI> amount of brain damage each causes. I agree alcohol is a drug. Neither is TI> necessarily good for you, but can have positive effects, such as wine and TI> aspirin helping you to live longer. The key to this seems to be MODERATION. TI> my humble opinion (and scientific opinion) alcohol is worse for you even TI> though it is socially accepted in many cases. I don't think they have measured either, but, when you look at all the side affects of each, the answer is clear. ANYTHING and I mean ANTHING is good in moderation, there is no substance that is not "okay" in moderation. I have even heard a joint a month is good for you, which I can accept, I don't think a joint an hour is good for you though. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Thu May 22 16:25:49 CDT 1997 Message number: 448 Reply to message number: 440 BT> There are three great shows on TV right now, and they're all on fox sunday BT> nights! Simpsons (19:00), Xena: Warrior Princess (21:00), and Hercules BT> (22:00). Better than street drugs, it's the drug of the nation! Maybe I could break the routine and watch Hercules and Xena, but I've never gotten into the Simpsons. BTW, any reason for constantly using 24 hour time (besides it's cooler than normal time)? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Thu May 22 16:27:27 CDT 1997 Message number: 449 Reply to message number: 447 FE> ANYTHING and I mean ANTHING is good in moderation, there is no substance th FE> is not "okay" in moderation. I have even heard a joint a month is good for FE> you, which I can accept, I don't think a joint an hour is good for you thou No. I believe that cocaine in even small amounts has caused people to die of heart attacks, even if they are physically fit. But moderation is moderation. You have to balance the stress relief factor in, whether it is a positive form of relieving it or not. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: All Subject: Alcohol and tolerance Date: Thu May 22 16:34:29 CDT 1997 Message number: 450 Reply to message number: unavailable As people were debating alcohol and tolerance, my joyous high school health book sez this: A person's alcohol tolerance is determined by two things: A. The rate at which their liver can oxidize alcohol. *This is a genetic trait*, but doesn't mean cuz your dad drank a lot that you can handle a lot. B. A person also develops a (ahh loss of words) tolerance to alcohol the more they drink. So fatal, get drunk every night and you'll have a high tolerance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Thu May 22 18:39:13 CDT 1997 Message number: 451 Reply to message number: 441 FE> What is an opinion to one person could be a fact to another. Some people kn FE> the answer to things, and some people have opinions. That's the point of opinion, the difference between what people think is right and wrong. On fact one person can be wrong and another right, but by definition, a fact must not be variable in and of its own truth. This is the where opinion comes in, people disagreeing on what is fact and what is opinion. It is a fact that drugs kill brain cells, but whether or not that is grounds for illegality is opinion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Thu May 22 18:41:11 CDT 1997 Message number: 452 Reply to message number: 442 FE> Do you think that it could have (over a span of time) developed amoung grou FE> of blacks while they were exposed to malaria or something like that? It could have developed in the groups, but not in individuals. The groups would have developed it by having those without it die off and those with it live to propogate. Genes themselves rarely mutate in real life inside a fully developed body, more often something happens in the sperm or egg cell's DNA which changes the end result. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Evolution Date: Thu May 22 18:45:19 CDT 1997 Message number: 453 Reply to message number: 445 FE> I happen to disagree, I think if a family line has a certain trait in it th FE> s strong enough that it will be passed on. Such as if you made a line of FE> people lift weights all day, their kids also, and their kids, and their kid FE> your going to have some strong people, because the bodies of the parents FE> ADAPTED to meet the needs of everyday life. In scientific tests, biological science tells us you'd be unlikely to see that happen, because all traits are either environmental in nature or genetic, and weightlifting can be demonstrated to have to effect on the parent's genetic structure. The supremely large number of other genetic and environmental factors would make this difficult to test, the children would have to be seperated from their parents at birth to get an accurate test. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Fri May 23 09:58:07 CDT 1997 Message number: 454 Reply to message number: 437 TI> It seems to be the truth most things are 90% crap doesn't it :). 'Mind TI> suggesting some good programming? All I've seen so far is the occasional A& TI> show, and when PBS aired Manufacturing Consent. OK, and some public access TI> like "Collectin' Stuff with Butz and Witz", but I won't count that as TI> something I "really" watch It all depends upon your taste. I tend towards intelligently-written science fiction, of which there is very little on TV. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri May 23 10:00:09 CDT 1997 Message number: 455 Reply to message number: 438 T> With penicillin and the other anti bacterial drugs, It's not that people T> are building up a tolerance to them, it's the little buggies that are T> developing a tolerance. TI> TI> Unfortunately so. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most if this is due to t TI> fact that the medications are used improperly (not for a long enough time TI> period) so some bacteria is still left which is resistant to the medication In a sense, yes - that helps to speed along the critter's evolution. When you take your meds for a day or two, you kill off 95% of the bugs. You take the rest of the meds to kill off the last 5%, which are somewhat resistant to the drug. If you do not kill off the last 5%, they breed and have drug-resistant kids. And so on ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Fri May 23 10:00:54 CDT 1997 Message number: 456 Reply to message number: 440 BT> There are three great shows on TV right now, and they're all on fox sunday BT> nights! Simpsons (19:00), Xena: Warrior Princess (21:00), and Hercules BT> (22:00). Better than street drugs, it's the drug of the nation! Don't forget Highlander, 23:00. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Evolution Date: Fri May 23 10:06:43 CDT 1997 Message number: 457 Reply to message number: 443 DR> And if people were put on the Earth, then why would they need to adapt to DR> their environment? Why not just create people who are already adapted? FE> FE> One thing I have noticed on this board, people do tend to think they have t FE> answer to everything, I don't know about everyone else, but I don't beleive I have all the answers. I'm not egotistical enough to entertain the thought. I mean no offense when I say that your response could be taken as a rather mean-spirited insult. FE> when in fact, not everything was meant to be answered FE> and some things never will be. What do you mean by "meant to be answered"? Who is it that decides what is meant to be, wnad what is not meant to be answered? I strogly disagree with this kind of reasoning. It's the same logic that was used to defend the dark ages of flat-earth-style scientific knowledge, and the logic which is used today to stop the spread of scientific inquiry. We can never stop imaging that there is a limit to knowledge, or else it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri May 23 10:15:30 CDT 1997 Message number: 458 Reply to message number: 444 In the last message, you were accusing myself and the members of this board of pretending that we know everything. In this message, you appear to be proving yourself right: FE> Ahh, you would probably end up with that result, when they servey not every FE> drug/violence incedent would be reported, for the simple fact that the pers FE> on the drugs would be relectant to admit they were on drugs when they FE> assalted. While it is certinly harder to obtain statistical results on drugs use than TV viewing habits, it is not impossible. As much as I might fault the statisticians for their goals at times, the more professional ones have proven themselves to be fairly accurate at determining opinion preferences and social habits. In short, there are ways to get around this knowledge blind and obtain accurate results. FE> Another thing, people tend to use alcohol like it can't hurt them FE> if its safe it's legal right? Nope. I think people tend to be MORE carful FE> while using drugs, they know there is bad things that can happen while on t FE> drugs, people on alcohol really don't take time to think as much. And I could offer similar anecdotal logic, arguing that people who use illegal drugs are more likely to be antisocial and destructive, and less likely to weigh *any* kind of consequences when getting their fix. Which is closer to your/mine/everyone else's perception of reality? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Evolution Date: Fri May 23 10:20:20 CDT 1997 Message number: 459 Reply to message number: 445 DR> You cannot develop your genes through any normal, everyday activity. While DR> is theoretically possible to go in and manually splice genes in a living DR> host, that technology is decades away, if ever. FE> I happen to disagree, I think if a family line has a certain trait in it th FE> s strong enough that it will be passed on. Such as if you made a line of FE> people lift weights all day, their kids also, and their kids, and their kid FE> your going to have some strong people, because the bodies of the parents FE> ADAPTED to meet the needs of everyday life. Pardon my incivility, but .... bullshit. If you can find any evidence that acquired characteristics are passed on at a genetic level, I'll guarantee you a spot on "Nightline". Two weeks straight. There is a stark and violent difference between environmental influences and genetics, and I believe that you are confusing the two. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri May 23 10:21:15 CDT 1997 Message number: 460 Reply to message number: 447 FE> ANYTHING and I mean ANTHING is good in moderation, there is no substance th FE> is not "okay" in moderation. Mmmmmmmmmmmmm, love those plutonium-mercury milkshakes! :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THROCKMORTON To: BIG TEEBO Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Sat May 24 04:10:00 CDT 1997 Message number: 461 Reply to message number: unavailable BT>T> Doesn't pot have some of the same tars and other stuff that tobacco has? >T> This would tend to lead to long term long damage and increased risk of >T> cancer. BT>True, but you must keep in context the fact that it would be somewhat >difficult to become a "three-pack a day" marijuana smoker. BT>*teebo I not trying to say that pot is as bad as cigarettes. I am saying that those who claim pot is not bad for you should consider the residue that comes with it when smoked. --- þ OLX 1.53 þ Save the ales ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Sun May 25 10:50:43 CDT 1997 Message number: 462 Reply to message number: 448 TI> never gotten into the Simpsons. BTW, any reason for constantly using 24 hou TI> time (besides it's cooler than normal time)? That's it! :) ..and it's a bit clearer to understand. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Sun May 25 12:51:20 CDT 1997 Message number: 463 Reply to message number: 448 BT> There are three great shows on TV right now, and they're all on fox sunday BT> nights! Simpsons (19:00), Xena: Warrior Princess (21:00), and Hercules BT> (22:00). Better than street drugs, it's the drug of the nation! TI> never gotten into the Simpsons. BTW, any reason for constantly using 24 hou TI> time (besides it's cooler than normal time)? Teebo's a closet fascist. This is his way of getting closer to the military which he adores so much. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: All Subject: Where are we going? Date: Mon May 26 18:06:03 CDT 1997 Message number: 464 Reply to message number: unavailable Hey everybody, I've been trying to sleep for the last hour to no avail, so I figured I'd vent some emotions on to all of you - I'd like you to respond if you have anything to add _at all_. Today I started work on the "Historical 612" project - a web page to show where we have been as a community in this area. Dissent has changed alot over the years, it has little resemblance to what it did when it started up way back in 1993 (if that's right).. As you may have noticed, one of our biggest contributors, Froggy, has abandoned us without warning - probably for a very good reason but what that is is a bit of a mystery. Without fail, new users never call back after their first time. It's like they hear about the board, check it out, make a mental note that it was neat but didn't quite serve the short attention span, so they'll go back to the internet and forget about it. So my biggest question is this: With plummeting interest, why does this board exist? What purpose does it serve? It was origionally a community based on spontanaty, but now it seems to be somewhat stale or even "sterile". I know we could make a huge effort to get people involved, and it would work - but for how long? The new-uns would just be assimilated back into the internet. I'm not saying that the answer is to take the board down - yet - but when should it happen? Should it ever happen? If not, then how do we get people involved? What I think is going on right now is that people are flocking to the internet to assimilate information as fast as they possibly can, and they're enjoying it, what is the purpose of trying to change this? It's social evolution. In the future people will find a void, and that will be the community, so it will be filled again and the "scene" will be as active as ever - but I give it at least 5-10 years. What should we do in the meantime? I guess what brought this all on was the previously mentioned historical project, and as I mapped out the actual schisms starting in the late 1980s, as I read things about people saying "The scene is dying" gradually more and more as time approached the present, the more I realized they were right. Every year it does get just a little bit worse, but this doesn't bother me in the big picture. All things change and I am just as excited for what the future will bring because I know we will work to make it something much better. The only constant is change. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Where are we going? Date: Tue May 27 10:45:42 CDT 1997 Message number: 465 Reply to message number: 464 I really have no good answers to your questions, and I haven't had the experience here those of you who have been around longer have had to notice huge changes in atmosphere. I must say that I think it would be nice if there were more people here, adds to the liveliness of a discussion, but I have no idea how to go about doing so. I've personally tried to interest all my intelligent friends, but to no avail, most of them simply aren't in to the bbs scene anymore. I'd be willing to do something to get this board advertised but I really don't know what. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BADLANDS To: .. Subject: . Date: Tue May 27 21:22:05 CDT 1997 Message number: 466 Reply to message number: unavailable I have something to say on this -- I'm still* as interested as ever in the local BBS scene - definitely more than the Internet, which requires monthly charges if one doesn't go to college or work (work that provides it, that is.) Plus there's the community, blah blah blah. As long as there are people who think the same, and take the initiative to check out the boards, things will be going ok. I see in the future an evolution in the role BBSs play... it's interesting to speculate on what this could be... but I'm too tired to think about it right now... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THROCKMORTON To: FATAL ERROR Subject: Re: Gays Date: Wed May 28 05:55:40 CDT 1997 Message number: 467 Reply to message number: unavailable FE>T> Where it gets interesting is when you have a gene that has both positive >T> and negative actions. The best example of this I've heard of is that >T> many Blacks carry a gene that increases the odds of getting sickle cell >T> anemia. Negative gene you ask? Not necessarily so. The same gene has >T> been found to also confer a degree of immunity to malaria. FE>Do you think that it could have (over a span of time) developed amoung grou >of blacks while they were exposed to malaria or something like that? That's the way evolution is supposed to work. The people that had this gene survived and had children. Those that did not had a tendency to die from malaria before they reproduced. Eventually most of the people in the group had the sickle cell gene. --- þ OLX 1.53 þ I have coffee, I have cigarettes. Life is good. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Thu May 29 00:32:15 CDT 1997 Message number: 468 Reply to message number: 447 FE> ANYTHING and I mean ANTHING is good in moderation, there is no substance th FE> is not "okay" in moderation. I have even heard a joint a month is good for FE> you, which I can accept, I don't think a joint an hour is good for you thou ** arsenic? shit? TNT? sulfuric acid? ohhhhh don't make such definite statements....') -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Where are we going? Date: Thu May 29 00:41:02 CDT 1997 Message number: 469 Reply to message number: 464 BT> So my biggest question is this: With plummeting interest, why does this boa BT> exist? What purpose does it serve? It was origionally a community based o BT> spontanaty, but now it seems to be somewhat stale or even "sterile". I kno BT> we could make a huge effort to get people involved, and it would work - but BT> for how long? The new-uns would just be assimilated back into the internet BT> I'm not saying that the answer is to take the board down - yet - but when BT> should it happen? Should it ever happen? If not, then how do we get peopl BT> involved? * it's a good question, teebo- and, like all good questions, once for which i don't have a ready answer. it sure has changed around here, tho, for sure-- last year at this time i couldn't get everything written and responded to in the hour i had on-line. what has changed? internet perhaps. hard to answer. there really aren't forums like this with local people, tho. maybe everyone's gone to listservs or interactive bullshit. * one thing you might consider- and i'm sure maybe some other people might jump on me for saying this- you might consider, if it's not too expensive, putting in an internet email mailgate feature. it seems to me that the local boards that are still hopping are ones that offer internet email. i know that's why i sent my $30 into 2 of them for subscriptions. and at least then you could offer subscription prices and some people (like me) would fork over some $$. i really like this software- to me, it's easier and more intelligent than the wildcat bbs software i'm used to. if i could grab internet email here i'd be a constant user. i also have no clue how much a feed like that costs the sysop, so if i'm just blowin' smoke, scuze me. * and bummer about froggy. i hope she's OK. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: PHYN To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Where are we going? Date: Fri May 30 12:38:49 CDT 1997 Message number: 470 Reply to message number: 464 I have one suggestion. Coming from a user who is starting to wade through the mountains of back messages that exist in these bases. Make a 50 message limit per base... the board would devour less HD space, plus it's intimidating for a new user to come into a base and see 500 messages. i could see how that would scare someone away. Your project is a great idea. If you need someone to help you brainstorm about the old school scene i'd be happy to help you out. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: PHYN To: Throckmorton Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri May 30 12:40:36 CDT 1997 Message number: 471 Reply to message number: 467 T> >T> and negative actions. The best example of this I've heard of is that T> >T> many Blacks carry a gene that increases the odds of getting sickle cel T> >T> anemia. Negative gene you ask? Not necessarily so. The same gene ha T> >T> been found to also confer a degree of immunity to malaria. on a side note, it's also been noted as the gene that makes the black male penis larger when flacid(on average) than any other race. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Fri May 30 16:56:58 CDT 1997 Message number: 472 Reply to message number: 454 DR> It all depends upon your taste. I tend towards intelligently-written scien DR> fiction, of which there is very little on TV. Alas, I must add a fourth show to my Teebo's TV list. La Femme Nikita - based after the french movie of the same name (by Luc Besson - director/writer of The 5th Element) and the US adaptation Point of No Return (with bridget fonda I believe). The show is _much_ better than the US movie (which I've seen). It's on USA (shudder - don't let this get to you), at 21:00 monday nights. She almost dresses as good as me - and has lots of sneaky lookin guns for a homeless person. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Fri May 30 16:58:15 CDT 1997 Message number: 473 Reply to message number: 456 DR> Don't forget Highlander, 23:00. Never could get into that show, I thought the movies were terrible. At least Xena and Herc _know_ their hokey. ;) *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri May 30 17:00:17 CDT 1997 Message number: 474 Reply to message number: 460 DR> Mmmmmmmmmmmmm, love those plutonium-mercury milkshakes! :-) Yeah, but if you think about it we intake just a minute amount of very dangerous substances over the course of our lifetime naturally (_very_ minute). Not to mention radiation. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Fri May 30 17:02:21 CDT 1997 Message number: 475 Reply to message number: 463 DR> Teebo's a closet fascist. This is his way of getting closer to the militar DR> which he adores so much. Shhhhhu-ush! I'm not getting closer to the military time, I'm making it into a pop craze so as to further incorporate the armed forces into a subversive culture in which to overthrough their system. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Cosima Subject: Re: Where are we going? Date: Fri May 30 17:05:36 CDT 1997 Message number: 476 Reply to message number: 469 C> constant user. i also have no clue how much a feed like that costs the sysop Not sure - probably more than my FreeNet account. ;) I'm not sure that having a email gate would really bring people in tho - if they can find it other places, why call here? I'd rather people have a desire to communicate with those in their community in the first place.. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Phyn Subject: Re: Where are we going? Date: Fri May 30 17:07:02 CDT 1997 Message number: 477 Reply to message number: 470 P> limit per base... the board would devour less HD space, plus it's intimidati P> for a new user to come into a base and see 500 messages. i could see how th P> would scare someone away. Ah yes, the (bi?)-annual archives are set for mid-june. But you've got a good point, perhaps this should be done every month or two - most people just skip to the last 20 anyways.. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: PHYN To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Where are we going? Date: Sun Jun 01 17:17:14 CDT 1997 Message number: 478 Reply to message number: 477 BT> good point, perhaps this should be done every month or two - most people ju BT> skip to the last 20 anyways.. right, just as i did.. ;) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: BIG TEEBO Subject: Re: Where are we going? Date: Sun Jun 01 19:47:20 CDT 1997 Message number: 479 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Big Teebo to Phyn <=- P> limit per base... the board would devour less HD space, plus it's intimida P> for a new user to come into a base and see 500 messages. i could see how P> would scare someone away. BT> Ah yes, the (bi?)-annual archives are set for mid-june. But you've BT> got a good point, perhaps this should be done every month or two - most BT> people just skip to the last 20 anyways.. A 50 message limit is far too small for archiving. Many messages would be lost and the record of are brillant babblings could not be archived for future observations. If a newbie can't firgure out how to use the offline mail door or to simply skip ahead to the last 20 messages then they should leave and never return. The archives are cool and offer a record of Dissent. Dissent is a message board today, tomorrow, and yesterday! ... You poor guys. Always confusing your pistols with your privates. ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: COSIMA Subject: Re: Where are we going? Date: Sun Jun 01 19:47:21 CDT 1997 Message number: 480 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Cosima to Big Teebo <=- Co> one thing you might consider- and i'm sure maybe some other people Co> might jump on me for saying this- you might consider, if it's not too Co> expensive, putting in an internet email mailgate feature. it seems to Co> me that the local boards that are still hopping are ones that offer Co> internet email. i know that's why i sent my $30 into 2 of them for Co> subscriptions. and at least then you could offer subscription prices Co> and some people (like me) would fork over some $$. i really like this Co> software- to me, it's easier and more intelligent than the wildcat bbs Co> software i'm used to. if i could grab internet email here i'd be a Co> constant user. i also have no clue how much a feed like that costs the Co> sysop, so if i'm just blowin' smoke, scuze me. Yikes! Paying for Inet Email?! Internet email should be free. I know of a couple of bbs that free INET email. Kerowyn's Haven BBS (612) 455-0874 is a Wildcat 5 BBS that I am currently using as my main source of INET Email + you can obtain Internet Access through this bbs. Free 45 minutes a day. Another source of free Inet Email is something called JUNO which is a free Windows based INET email program. You will have to shop around for this (Kerowyn's Haven has it). Co> and bummer about froggy. i hope she's OK. On another BBS "Warlock's Castle" I read a message from Froggy awhile back which stated that this was probadly her last message "for awhile" and that she was unsure "when or *if*" she would return. No further info was available. I (personally) look forward to Froogy's return. ... Church parking only: Trespassers will NOT be forgiven. ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Sandman Subject: Re: Where are we going? Date: Mon Jun 02 09:50:15 CDT 1997 Message number: 481 Reply to message number: 479 S> A 50 message limit is far too small for archiving. S> Many messages would be lost and the record of are brillant S> babblings could not be archived for future observations. Yep, I'm not talking about a limit, I'm saying that I archive everything more often then 2-times/yr, when I roll back the msg bases to the last 25 or so.. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CUBIX THE RUBE To: All Subject: "GAYS" Date: Mon Jun 02 18:07:32 CDT 1997 Message number: 482 Reply to message number: unavailable Okay, I'm a new user on this board. Maybe I missed something. I've just read the past one hundred and fifty some messages posted with this subject heading, and after determining that only about 100 of the actually pertained to the topis, was still appaled at damn near everyones speech (text) mannerisms. First : You are reffering to 10% of the US population in one word. Second : You have made us sound to be an object to be dealt with. Third : I didn't see ONE person speak from experience. Fourth : Often quoted was the bible, a proven UNRELIABLE text. Unless you have spent the last eight years of you life being called degratory names, you have no right to an opinon. Unless you have the scars left from a suicide attempt because there was no one to talk to and your lover just died of AIDS, you have no right to an opinion. Unless you have to spend more time justifying your life than living it, you have no right to an opinion. Unless you are omnicient, you have no right to pass judgement. Those of you who say it is wrong in the name of Christianity have not read and understood your own holy text. The 'bible' only has eight passages that could concievably include homosexuality. In only two of them is it referenced as a primary subject. The hebrew word 'jedat' 'to know' appears 158 times. in only 32 cases is it meant to mean sex. If anyone is compelled to continue this argument, fire any questions you might have this way. I'd LOOVE to set the record 'straight'. CuBiX ThE RubE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: BIG TEEBO Subject: Where are we going? Date: Mon Jun 02 21:20:22 CDT 1997 Message number: 483 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Big Teebo to All <=- BT> So my biggest question is this: With plummeting interest, why does BT> this board exist? What purpose does it serve? It was origionally a BT> community based on spontanaty, but now it seems to be somewhat stale BT> or even "sterile". I know we could make a huge effort to get people BT> involved, and it would work - but for how long? The new-uns would BT> just be assimilated back into the internet. I'm not saying that the BT> answer is to take the board down - yet - but when should it happen? BT> Should it ever happen? If not, then how do we get people involved? I am a firm believer that the sysop needs to decide when to take a BBS down. They have the responsibilities to maintain it and when they conclude that it is time to shutdown then it is time to shutdown. BT> I guess what brought this all on was the previously mentioned BT> historical project, and as I mapped out the actual schisms starting in BT> the late 1980s, as I read things about people saying "The scene is BT> dying" gradually more and more as time approached the present, the more BT> I realized they were right. Every year it does get just a little bit BT> worse, but this doesn't bother me in the big picture. All things BT> change and I am just as excited for what the future will bring because BT> I know we will work to make it something much better. The only BT> constant is change. What to do? 1. advertise. 2. Have a weekly topic to discuss. (for example: vouchers, the OK bombing trial, sex education) 3. shutdown and call it quits. ... New Oral Roberts Doll--feed it money or it self-destructs!! ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Zines for 6i2? Date: Fri Jun 06 10:48:15 CDT 1997 Message number: 484 Reply to message number: 372 FE> Hey, I kinda had a kewl idea here today, as some of you know there is some FE> sharp minds in 6i2 and some really kewl people, I was kinda thinking about FE> starting a zine for 6i2, I have all the stuff to be able to produce real FE> magazines at my fingertips, all I need is common interest, would any of you FE> interested in writing or submitting articles to such a cause? FE> FE> Just wondering, I think it would be really kewl though. Published or electronic? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri Jun 06 10:49:03 CDT 1997 Message number: 485 Reply to message number: 375 F> Exactly. Probably not, buit you might actually find out that ypo F> are related to 7your neighbor. This is similar to a lot of informtion in th F> Bible. Technically we are all related.. according to the Bible ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Froggy Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri Jun 06 10:51:33 CDT 1997 Message number: 486 Reply to message number: 376 F> That is an incorrect assumptioon. Drugs do not always hurt everyon F> Some people are definitely helped by some drugs. Like Ritilan (Dont know correct spelling). My sister takes Rit. because she has A.D.D., and since she has started takin that, she has been able to concentrate more on school work, and actually do better than me (Me Bavg her A- AVG) :) But people claim that pot can stop you from puking, and other things that I cannot recall now. I think I read about it in a newsweek, with a pic of a surgon holding a joint witha tweezers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri Jun 06 10:54:45 CDT 1997 Message number: 487 Reply to message number: 380 FE> I have not heard of anyone who died DIRECTLY because of MJ, Although I have FE> heard (and know of one) case where people did incredibly stupid things whil FE> they were high, Things that they would normally never do, Anything that alt FE> our state of mind (chemical wise) should be avoided when possible, I Then they probable were not responsible with it. FE> understand though that many people are far better off on the chemical then FE> deal with the great pain they are taking the drug for... I think that it is FE> wrong to use/abuse illegal drugs, I don't know of anyone who abuses Codene FE> I can't comment on that. Personally I think the only reason you shouldnt use weed is if yer in school. Otherwise, have a night at home, and get stoned of yer ass. Just wait till yer old enough to be responsible. and fer god sake be careful who you are with. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri Jun 06 10:55:26 CDT 1997 Message number: 488 Reply to message number: 382 FE> True, drunks are a danger for a shorter amount of time. A pothead will carr FE> the damage from the one joint for months. When you are drunk you wake up th FE> next morning with a hangover, when you are stoned you wake up the next morn FE> with brain damage. It also carries more serious side affects. Have you ever smoked MJ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Krusty Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri Jun 06 10:56:42 CDT 1997 Message number: 489 Reply to message number: 387 K> Eh. Just so you know, practically anything you can think of can alter K> your brain chemistry/state of mind. Caffeine, food, sunlight probably.. Sun too.. I get sunburned all the time (Orange hair ya know) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Fri Jun 06 10:59:24 CDT 1997 Message number: 490 Reply to message number: 391 FE> Well, Marijuana stays in your system longer, alcohol causes some damage to FE> brain cells and your liver, Marijuana can lead to far worse things, things FE> that will far outlast being drunk. I really don't think that pot is as bad FE> some of the "harder" drugs, but I think far too many people don't know the FE> dangers of pot. No, people know false dangers about POT. I would like to know exactly what you think the dangers of pot are, and if you have ever had any experience with it, and know people who use both. I know people who use both, and the drunks are the ones in trouble all the time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri Jun 06 10:59:55 CDT 1997 Message number: 491 Reply to message number: 392 FE> there are many alchoholics in your family you have a better chance of becom True, but you still are responsible for yourself ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Fri Jun 06 11:02:31 CDT 1997 Message number: 492 Reply to message number: 396 FE> Dependency... yes. Alcholism, well, no, it's pot, how could you be an FE> alcoholic from pot? You could be the equivalent, a pot head. Total loss of FE> will to live? Yes. FE> FE> Yes,Yes,Yes,Yes. how how how how Explain ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: Gays Date: Fri Jun 06 11:03:47 CDT 1997 Message number: 493 Reply to message number: 400 FE> evolution principles are wrong, there are genes that are passed from parent FE> child that prevent developing certain diseases, I saw it on CNN Yes, but the second you use that as an excuse (To be a drunkard) is the second you are giving in your independence. (not political) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THROCKMORTON To: SANDMAN Subject: Re: Where are we going? Date: Fri Jun 06 14:15:02 CDT 1997 Message number: 494 Reply to message number: unavailable S> Yikes! Paying for Inet Email?! > Internet email should be free. Why? --- þ OLX 1.53 þ CONGRESS.SYS Corrupted: Reboot Washington D.C. (Y/N)? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THROCKMORTON To: BIG TEEBO Subject: Re: Drugs and Emotions Date: Fri Jun 06 14:15:03 CDT 1997 Message number: 495 Reply to message number: unavailable BT>DR> Don't forget Highlander, 23:00. BT>Never could get into that show, I thought the movies were terrible. At lea >Xena and Herc _know_ their hokey. ;) BT>*teebo I don't see any of those shows that often, but I liked a Hercules episode where somebody tried to sell Hercules a Hercules action figure. --- þ OLX 1.53 þ A truly lazy person is never bored. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Where are we going? Date: Thu Jun 12 10:58:58 CDT 1997 Message number: 496 Reply to message number: 464 BT> Today I started work on the "Historical 612" project - a web page to show BT> where we have been as a community in this area. Dissent has changed alot o Sounds like a cool idea, do you have a URL we could look at? BT> So my biggest question is this: With plummeting interest, why does this boa BT> exist? What purpose does it serve? It was origionally a community based o It serves purpose, in that it brings a group of local people together to talk about what's on their minds. On the internet it's a lot more global and impersonal. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Cubix The Rube Subject: Re: "GAYS" Date: Thu Jun 12 11:07:24 CDT 1997 Message number: 497 Reply to message number: 482 CT> First : You are reffering to 10% of the US population in one word. Generalities are often necessary, but they must be recognized as generalities. Sometimes it is easy to cross the line. CT> Unless you have spent the last eight years of you life being called degrato CT> names, you have no right to an opinon. Pardon my bluntness, but ... bullshit. I've never been accused of being homosexual, nor teased because of someone else's moral judgement of my sexual orientation. But that doesn't mean that I can't have an opinion on the subject, nor understand some of what you and others like you are going through. This attitude that only people who have suffered are worthy is a very disturbing one to me ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Throckmorton Subject: TeeVee Date: Thu Jun 12 11:10:26 CDT 1997 Message number: 498 Reply to message number: 495 T> BT>Never could get into that show, I thought the movies were terrible. At l T> >Xena and Herc _know_ their hokey. ;) T> I don't see any of those shows that often, but I liked a Hercules T> episode where somebody tried to sell Hercules a Hercules action figure. I liked the ads for the Xena episode, which showed Xena having a love affair with Julius Ceasar. Ancient Greece = 1500 BC Imperial Rome = 100 AD Makes a hell of a lot of sense to me! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: TeeVee Date: Fri Jun 13 06:41:36 CDT 1997 Message number: 499 Reply to message number: 498 DR> I liked the ads for the Xena episode, which showed Xena having a love affa DR> with Julius Ceasar. DR> DR> Ancient Greece = 1500 BC DR> Imperial Rome = 100 AD How's this: On a Herculese episode they sold tacos :) I wonder what year Taco Bell fits into this arrangement at. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Where are we going? Date: Sat Jun 14 04:51:01 CDT 1997 Message number: 500 Reply to message number: 496 DR> Sounds like a cool idea, do you have a URL we could look at? Soon, hopefully.. I'm nearing the final stages of getting the webpage designed.. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: TeeVee Date: Sat Jun 14 04:52:07 CDT 1997 Message number: 501 Reply to message number: 498 DR> Ancient Greece = 1500 BC DR> Imperial Rome = 100 AD They pride themselves on this - Xena even makes fun of it in interviews often times.. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: The Invisible Man Subject: Re: TeeVee Date: Sat Jun 14 14:53:23 CDT 1997 Message number: 502 Reply to message number: 499 DR> I liked the ads for the Xena episode, which showed Xena having a love affa DR> with Julius Ceasar. TI> How's this: On a Herculese episode they sold tacos :) I wonder what TI> year Taco Bell fits into this arrangement at. That's just chintz though, it's deliberate and humorous. But when they send Xena along with Odysseus on "The Oddesey" or have her date Julius Ceasar, it it's presented as a serious storyline. Sad ... almost as sad as Highlander getting involved in Bonnie & Clyde, Hliter's assaination attempt and other historical events. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: TeeVee Date: Sat Jun 14 20:28:27 CDT 1997 Message number: 503 Reply to message number: 502 DR> That's just chintz though, it's deliberate and humorous. But when they sen DR> Xena along with Odysseus on "The Oddesey" or have her date Julius Ceasar, i DR> it's presented as a serious storyline. Good book and good "roman" version of the movie... hehe homer did have some strange ideas =) werd up! :) ahah fU(/<... Hmmm. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BADLANDS To: ... Subject: .. Date: Sat Jun 14 22:07:37 CDT 1997 Message number: 504 Reply to message number: unavailable So do males have a right to have a say on abortion? I say yes, but keep it to yrself. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Badlands Subject: Re: .. Date: Sun Jun 15 15:49:54 CDT 1997 Message number: 505 Reply to message number: 504 B> So do males have a right to have a say on abortion? B> B> I say yes, but keep it to yrself. So just 'cause I'm male, I'm no longer entitled to be vocal about my opinions? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: .. Date: Sun Jun 15 18:52:42 CDT 1997 Message number: 506 Reply to message number: 505 DR> So just 'cause I'm male, I'm no longer entitled to be vocal about my DR> opinions? * sure. soon as you get pregnant, you can figure out what you'd like to do with the baby at any time in its development. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THE INVISIBLE MAN To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: TeeVee Date: Mon Jun 23 07:40:57 CDT 1997 Message number: 507 Reply to message number: 502 TI> How's this: On a Herculese episode they sold tacos :) I wonder what TI> year Taco Bell fits into this arrangement at. DR> DR> That's just chintz though, it's deliberate and humorous. But when they sen DR> Xena along with Odysseus on "The Oddesey" or have her date Julius Ceasar, i DR> it's presented as a serious storyline. I'd have to say it's awfully goofy, and they sure make a goal out of being cheesy. In the recent Xena, it was an awful parody of Indiana Jones, and Xena came back to life. For some reason (Adeis?) happened to recognize this guy as a brush salesman from New Jersey, although he had risen from the dead. go figure. At any rate, when I flipped the channels I saw this cool movie all in Persian on public access and heard swinging Iranian bands. That was enjoyable. The Hercules was overall pretty cheesy, but I don't remember anything specific. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFOX To: Cosima Subject: Re: .. Date: Tue Jun 24 13:45:45 CDT 1997 Message number: 508 Reply to message number: 506 C> sure. soon as you get pregnant, you can figure out what you'd like to do wit C> the baby at any time in its development. Then non-prgnant, never been pregnant women need to STFU ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: Starfox Subject: Re: .. Date: Wed Jun 25 19:08:51 CDT 1997 Message number: 509 Reply to message number: 508 S> Then non-prgnant, never been pregnant women need to STFU STFU meaning - Stay the f*ck up? Step the f*ck up? Clue me in! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Da Summer Date: Sun Jun 29 06:44:25 CDT 1997 Message number: 510 Reply to message number: unavailable So what have all of you been up to lately, besides vegging out and watching Trash and Bri insult each other? :) I've been working on several web pages, have been getting increasingly sick of the bureaucratic, technocratic, corporate way the world works, and generally just enjoying the hell out of the Internet. I'll post some excerpts from my web pages here in a bit, for your perusal. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Ozzy Date: Sun Jun 29 06:51:50 CDT 1997 Message number: 511 Reply to message number: unavailable Here's part of my shot at the President of Hamline University, which is as yet unpublished (until completed): The Larry "Ozzy" Osnes Fan Club As founder of this prestigious club, I'd like to take the time to thank Larry for his service and dedication to the university and its students. Despite the low opinion held of him by many on campus, I can only hope that with time others will come to see Larry as I have: as a generous, gracious and articulate voice for change.

Why I like Larry My fondest memory of Larry is actualy a very recent one. Larry was parading around the football field on the day of the All-Day Party, greeting students with his catching smile and winning them over with his charm and good graces. Dressing down with a "Hamline" T-shirt thrown over his dress shirt and tie, he was somehow able to bond with the students in a synergistic way, connecting with them on a spiritual level. Larry must have sensed my mood, despondent as I was over recent changes with the Hamline dial-in network. He strode towards me and made a little smalltalk, working his charms on me to get me to reveal my problems to him. Larry's advice to my dilemma, of having to cope with another $250 bill out-of-pocket next year, was to have a drink of ice-water. Since then, I've been Larry's biggest fan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Cyberpunk Date: Sun Jun 29 06:58:17 CDT 1997 Message number: 512 Reply to message number: unavailable Here's the text of a multimedia-based web page I created for my Asian Trade class, it's kind of bheesy but cool in some ways too: According to 1960s guru Timothy Leary, information technology is changing the face of the world: "The development of the personal computer was a step of Gutenberg magnitude." Where once only priests and lords had access to books and records, the printing press made this information available to the masses. Like the printing press, the personal computer has also had a liberating effect. It has freed the power of information technology from the clutches of business and academia. This change, personal access to information technology, is a fundamental one. For in the process of interacting with this technology, those who utilize its power are also changed: "[T]here comes a point when the individual is "hooked" and cannot imagine living without the continual interchange of electronic signals between the personal brain and the personal computer ... These individuals will operate at a level of intelligence that is qualitatively different from those who use static forms of knowledge-information processing. In America this difference is already producing a generation gap, i.e., a species gap." Visit Timothy Leary's Home Page A technophile, Leary believes that technology has the potential to liberate the human spirit. For him, the power of information that personal computers bring to the individual creates a fundamental change - and in the case of the younger generations, it already has. One of the most visible, but least understood, youth movements is the cyberpunk culture. Closely wedded to both technology and information, in many ways cyberpunks are the "species" to which Leary is referring to. Almost by nature, the cyberpunk culture defies any attempt at definition. Originally coined in the world of fiction, the term has come to mean several different things as various groups of hackers and computer entheusiasts have come to embrace it. As the FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) posting for the newsgroup alt.cyberpunk describes it: "There are those who claim that "Cyberpunk" is indefinable, which in some sense it is. Moreover, most regulars on alt.cp are uncomfortable about even implying that there actually are any cyberpunks. The point being that we all live in a cyberpunk society today ... Take the quiz: Are you a cyberpunk? The type of society envisioned by these cyberpunks was originally popularized in the world of fictional literature. The first and most important work was written by William Gibson, entitled "Neuromancer". This award-winning novel defined many of the most important elements in cyberpunk literature. The alt.cyberpunk FAQ does an excellent job of explaining what these elements are: "Cyberpunk literature, in general, deals with marginalized people in technologically-enhanced cultural "systems". In Cyberpunk stories' settings, there is usually a "system" which dominates the lives of most "ordinary" people, be it an oppressive government, a group of large, paternalistic corporations or a fundamentalist religion. These systems are enhanced by certain technologies, particularly "information technology" (computers, the mass media), making the system better at keeping those within it, inside it. Often this technological system extends into its human "components" as well, via brain implants, prosthetic limbs, cloned or genetically engineered organs, etc. Humans themselves become part of "the Machine". This is the "cyber" aspect of Cyberpunk. However, in any cultural system, there are always those who live on its margins, on "the Edge": criminals, outcasts, visionaries or those who simply want freedom for its own sake. Cyberpunk literature focuses on these people, and often on how they turn the system's technological tools to their own ends. This is the "punk" aspect of Cyberpunk. The best Cyberpunk works are distinguished from previous works with similar themes, by a certain style. The setting is urban, the mood is dark and pessimistic. Concepts are thrown at the reader without explanation, much like new developments are thrown at us in our everyday lives. There is often a sense of moral ambiguity; simply fighting "the system" (to topple it, or just to stay alive) does not make the main characters "heroes" or "good" in the traditional sense." View the Cyberpunk FAQ The best example of this cyberpunk literature is actually a movie: Blade Runner. Released in 1982, the visuals and mood of the film remain stunningly futuristic to this day. As film critic Roger Ebert puts it, "[T]here aren't many 10-year-old movies that look more prophetic now than they did at the time [they were created]." The city in Blade Runner is envisioned in starkly cyberpunk terms. It is overtly technological, dark and dirty, and utterly dehumanizing. The plot of the movie involves Deckard, a retired Blade Runner, who is pressed back into service to track down and kill several human-looking replicants (artificially-created clones). At question in the movie is not whether he will succeed - this is, after all, still Hollywood - but what he will discover along the way. Programmed with artificial memories and a five-year lifespan, the replicants which Deckard has been hired to kill are different than most. After years of ignorant servitude, as they have begun to reach the end of their five-year lifespan, they have become self-aware and self-conscious. Struggling to survive, they have come to Earth to find salvation. After failing to find a way to extend his life, the last remaining replicant, Roy Batty, reminisces about his short and glorious life: "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die." While his body begins to decay around him, Roy reaches out and saves Deckard's life - the man who has killed all of his friends, and has also tried to kill him. At the end of the movie, Deckard tries to escape the city with a woman he knows to be a replicant. By doing this, he takes control over his life and rebels against the system. Like most cyberpunk tales, there are no moral absolutes in this film. Deckard and the replicants he is hunting are shown both as victims and criminals, controlled by forces larger than themselves. Even the ending itself is ambiguous, leaving the viewer to wonder whether Deckard is able to find the freedom he is searching for. Visuals and story aside, the irony is that Blade Runner is not really about replicants or technology. It is, instead, an exploration of what it really means to be human. This search for humanity is at the heart of much cyberpunk literature. The biting edge of technolgy, and the tearing changes that it brings to society, are questions which always seem to remain just below the surface in cyberpunk fiction. This search for humanity takes more overt form in the recent Japanese anime release, Ghost in the Shell. The main characters in this film are all agents of the government, who have traded independence and autonomy for the latest in machine-wired augmentations. Half-human and half-machine, they literally could not survive without regular expert maintinence. In 2029 AD, the shell is the body - human, machine or a combination of both. The ghost is the soul and the identity, which cannot be created in the laboratory. Searching after a master criminal called "The Puppet Master", Maj. Motoko Kusanagi and her group find that the boundaries between man and machine are not so well-defined. As it turns out, the Puppet Master is not just any other criminal - it is the first artificially-created intelligence. Major Kusanagi's pursuit sets up the rising conflict of the movie, as the Puppet Master tries to evade capture and find a "host" shell. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Cyberpunk II Date: Sun Jun 29 07:01:27 CDT 1997 Message number: 513 Reply to message number: unavailable Questioning the role and definition of humanity in this new age of technology in a much more overt manner than Blade Runner, this flim reveals the tension between self and technology which is so common in cyberpunk fiction. According to flim critic Roger Ebert: "There is much moody talk in the movie about what it is to be human. All of the information accumulated in a lifetime, we learn, is less than a drop in the ocean of information, and perhaps a creature that can collect more information and hold onto it longer is ... more than human ... At the end of the film, Puppet Master invites the major to join it face to face in its brave new informational sea." View Roger Ebert's Movie Review Searching for a shell to reside within, the Puppet Master finds a willing host in Maj. Motoko Kusanagi and joins with her. Though both films deal with similar subject matter, Ghost in the Shell does not end the film on a note of moral ambiguity - it overtly strips the boundaries between man and machine. Both films have in common many central themes: the dominance of technology, an increasingly blurry boundary between man and machine, and main characters with little control over their lives. In both films, the main protaganists also reach out and strive to break with the system which controls them - another central tenet of cyberpunk literature. Right or wrong, those who fight against the boundaries imposed on them by an increasingly unfriendly and unjust society are the "heroes". The cyberpunk as hero is a common theme not only in the fiction, but in the writings and postings of the cyberpunks themselves. Over the years, several cyberpunk-flavored "zines" have cropped up. Among the most infamous is Phrack, which records the techniques and social habits of the computer/telephone hacker community. According to one recent Phrack editorial: "[W]e are giving away tools to people who aren't rich enough to buy them ... By providing a public compendium of the same knowledge, information and resources that all the money in the world can buy, we help ensure that the Internet will remain safe with the individual. Knowledge is not power. Knowledge is _empowerment_." Visit Phrack Online By their own profession, these hackers are preserving freedom. Fearing the abuses of unchecked power, they are struggling to make information public so that Joe Blow might have the same ability to hack passwords and sift through personal information as the NSA and the chairman of General Motors. Like the characters in Blade Runner and Ghost in the Shell, the hacker community is caught between two worlds. They are allured by the power of the machine, treating networks and data packets like mere toys - but trapped in the present, in a world where their curiosity is declared illegal and corrupt: "This is our world now, the world of the electron and the switch, the beauty of the baud ... We explore, and you call us criminals. We seek knowledge, and you call us criminals. We exist without nationality, skin color, or religious bias. You wage wars, murder, cheat, lie to us, and try to make us believe it's for our own good, yet we are the criminals. Yes, I am a criminal. My crime is that of curiosity. My crime is that of outsmarting you. I am a hacker and this is my manifesto. You may stop me, but you can't stop us all." View The Hacker Manifesto It may appear that under the guise of this moral code, anything goes. While that may be true for some, there are definate values which most cyberpunk hackers hold true to - they just aren't the same ones which the authorities believe in. Speaking to this issue, cyberpunk author Bruce Sterling writes about the foundations of moral values in the cyberpunk culture: "In the moral universe of cyberpunk, we *already* know Things We Were Not Meant To Know ... Robert Oppenheimer at Los Alamos became the Destroyer of Worlds long before we arrived on the scene. In cyberpunk, the idea that there are sacred limits to human action is simply a delusion. There are no sacred boundaries to protect us from ourselves." Read Bruce Sterling's Cyberpunk in the 90s This could well be called "the Age of Oppenheimer", the post-illusionist period of history. There are no more sacred illusions, or limits on power. Most cyberpunks understand this all too well. It's not that they have no morals or values themselves, but the fact that they have different ones, which so confound authorities. For their values are not based on the whims of that authority, but the cold logic of caluclus. For much of the cyberpunk culture, a crime is one which damages someone else in a real and measurable form. A crime is not one which is deemed by society as wrong, especially not when committed in a malicious manner. They ally themselves not with members of their fellow state of nation, who they may have little in common with, but with those half a world away who think and act as they do. So what makes these cyberpunks different - and how are they going to affect the world as they age and mature, filling the halls of power? Influenced by what Leary calls "the continual interchange of electronic signals between the personal brain and the personal computer", these cyberpunks are part of a culture which treats the growing stature of technology and international trade much differently than their parents. For they do not fear the Asian workers who compete for their jobs, or the affordable advanced technology which international trade brings to their doorstep. They fear the abuses of unchecked government and corporate power. They fear the abuse of technology, which has the potential to rob the soul of the masses. With no sacred limits on human behaviour, they fear the two-headed monster: the power of unearned authority augemnted by unassailable technology. Thus, technology is a love-hate relationship for many cyberpunks. It is adored when available to the masses, but abhorrent when allowed to fall into the hands of the alread-powerful. Much of their fiction reflects this dichotomy, and many of their actions - like hacking secure government installations and spreading information like a virus - also serve to advance their cause, keeping the new toys and technological tools in the hands of the masses. Whether they are a new "species" is questionable, but it is very apparent that the cyberpunk perspective on the world - shaped by the "beauty of the baud" and the age of Oppenheimer - is one which has little respect for unearned authority, antiquated laws, or even national boundaries. Their voice and influence on trade will likely not be isolationist, but interventionist. They will not push for limits on foreign influence and foreign goods, but on the abuses of corporate and `government power. Image sources: Timothy Leary's Home Page Internet Movie Database listing - Blade Runner Robert Walker's Ghost in the Shell page Adbusters Culture-Jammer Headquarts Retinal Fetix Wetware ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Cyberpunk II Date: Sun Jun 29 07:03:34 CDT 1997 Message number: 514 Reply to message number: 513 DR> Read Bruce Sterling's DR> Cyberpunk in the 90s This is a kickass article by Bruce Sterling, almost the whole damned thing is quotable. The URL is: http://www.pugzine.com/arch04.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Ultima Online Date: Sun Jun 29 07:12:48 CDT 1997 Message number: 515 Reply to message number: unavailable One last thing which I've been involved qwith lately is in anticipation of the release of "Ultima Online", an online role-playing game in which 50,000 people will reside and participate in the same "world" (about 5,000 at any one time). It's not just a hack-and-slash fest, you can be about anythig you want ... a mage/thief, a politician, even a blacksmith. It's all wide open. You can find information on this game at www.owo.com, but bring your frames-compatible browser. I signed up with a friend from Texas a while back, and we've been building a player's guild in anticipation of the game (which looks like it will be incredibly popular). He's in charge of the clan; I'm in charge of the political/economic division. His site is online at www.arrowweb.com/shadow, and again a frames-compatible browser is necessary. But if you can use the "\" key in Lynx and can read a bit of HTML, you should be able to get around this and jump around manually. We've already signed about 110 members up, and should have 15 more signed up after this weekend's recruitment drive on Diablo's battle.net. My department web page just went up a few days ago, and is online at www.skypoint.com/~daedalus/shadow. No special brwser is necessary, tho I haven't gone to great pains to make it lynx-friendly. If any of you are interested in signing up, cool. Feel free to use me as a reference. (Daedalus or Daedalus Rising). If not, that's fine too. Just letting y'all know what's out there, and what I've been up to. FYI: Game requirements are a Pentium under Win95, w/ full internet access. The price will probably be $50 up front for the CD, and $10 a month for unlimited gametime. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Da Summer Date: Sun Jun 29 21:25:46 CDT 1997 Message number: 516 Reply to message number: 510 DR> So what have all of you been up to lately, besides vegging out and watchin DR> Trash and Bri insult each other? :) Working, stupid hours. So far my hours seem to be the least convenient times of day. Say 5-7:30 pm. ruins the afternoon, ruins the evening. Stuff like that. Also, reading Sartre in the original French, and hanging out with friends way too much for my own good. Playing a damn lot of role play games on computer, (Old ones, say 1994 and before) What I'm not doing: Going out with my girlfriend, who conspicuously has no time do go out at all. Writing poetry, which I should be doing to keep the brain working. Getting to sleep before 3 a.m. each morning. Also I got email, so I've been conversing a lot more. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Da Summer Date: Mon Jun 30 19:38:53 CDT 1997 Message number: 517 Reply to message number: 510 DR> So what have all of you been up to lately, besides vegging out and watchin DR> Trash and Bri insult each other? :) DR> DR> I've been working on several web pages, have been getting increasingly sic DR> of the bureaucratic, technocratic, corporate way the world works, and DR> generally just enjoying the hell out of the Internet. * well it's been an interesting summer for me so far- i'm in the middle of a major fight with my slumlord (i'm going to have to take her to court) and thank god, am moving on aug 1...but outside of that, mostly working and packing boxes. by the way, did you know that the theme song from "gilligan's island" can be sung to the melody of 'amazing grace'? works for me... -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Specter Subject: Re: Da Summer Date: Tue Jul 01 05:24:18 CDT 1997 Message number: 518 Reply to message number: 516 S> Working, stupid hours. So far my hours seem to be the least convenient time S> of day. Say 5-7:30 pm. ruins the afternoon, ruins the evening. Stuff like Where are you working at? S> that. Also, reading Sartre in the original French, and hanging out with S> friends way too much for my own good. Playing a damn lot of role play games S> on computer, (Old ones, say 1994 and before) So, no big all-consuming summer project in your future? That's kind of whatsummer vacation should be for, I think. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Cosima Subject: Re: Da Summer Date: Tue Jul 01 05:25:10 CDT 1997 Message number: 519 Reply to message number: 517 C> well it's been an interesting summer for me so far- i'm in the middle of a C> major fight with my slumlord (i'm going to have to take her to court) and C> thank god, am moving on aug 1...but outside of that, mostly working and C> packing boxes. That's amazing, i thought that only males could be slumlords. So what's her problem anyways? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Da Summer Date: Fri Jul 04 10:18:49 CDT 1997 Message number: 520 Reply to message number: 519 DR> That's amazing, i thought that only males could be slumlords. DR> DR> So what's her problem anyways? * assholism is non-sexist. she's always been a bit of a psycho (thanks for letting me vent, by the way, i appreciate it) but mostly i just stay out of her way. i rent a duplex- she owns the bldg and lives upstairs. this winter got ugly when the heat went out in my unit- it was 39 in here so i was a tad chilled- i asked her to fix it, she went down, got it started and it turned off next time it fired up- obviously it needed a new igniter or some such. i called her every time it got below 45 in here (not outrageous) and she screamed that she wouldn't be 'my nigger' any more. can you believe it? then we had serious water damage- we're talkin' lucy ricardo carrying pots and pans all over to collect all the drips- and she's finally getting around to getting it fixed (this happened in january) and she expects us to leave for 5 days while they rip out the ceilings, plaster, paint... but she's not going to give us any cut in the rent or pay for our expenses. needless to say, we;re moving august 1--and i will have to deal with telling contractors that i will prosecute them for tresspass if they try to enter my unit. she's ballistic. we've gone to the tenants' union- they're great- but it doesn't make alot of difference when you're dealing with someone who says 'i don't care WHAT the law says, i'm not doing it!' so i guess i'll see her in court when we have to sue for my deposit back (why do i think it'll be a problem?) and back rent. what a pain. oh well. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Cosima Subject: Re: Da Summer Date: Tue Jul 08 07:34:39 CDT 1997 Message number: 521 Reply to message number: 520 C> prosecute them for tresspass if they try to enter my unit. she's ballistic. C> we've gone to the tenants' union- they're great- but it doesn't make alot of C> difference when you're dealing with someone who says 'i don't care WHAT the C> law says, i'm not doing it!' so i guess i'll see her in court when we have C> to sue for my deposit back (why do i think it'll be a problem?) and back ren C> what a pain. oh well. Sounds like a pain in the ass. Here in Rolling Ghettoes townhomes, the maintinence is a joke. They cause more damage than they fix lately. It goes beyond incompetence to maliciousness. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SLICK SNAIL To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Da Summer Date: Wed Jul 09 14:12:48 CDT 1997 Message number: 522 Reply to message number: 521 DR> Here in Rolling Ghettoes townhomes, the maintinence is a joke. They cause DR> more damage than they fix lately. It goes beyond incompetence to DR> maliciousness. It's weird reading these posts about some of you living some where besides home. I remember when most of the people around here were just pups. Swapping warez, and hacking boards. Heh.. Damn I'm old. I live at home still. At least when I'm not at school. I'll graduate in the winter (or spring) as a CSCI major\Networking Minor. I have an Internship at 3M that is a friggen gold mine right now. I should get hired on there after the summer, and not have to interview anywhere else, but it's a long drive from Maple Grove to there. Slick Snail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Slick Snail Subject: Re: Da Summer Date: Thu Jul 10 04:47:11 CDT 1997 Message number: 523 Reply to message number: 522 DR> Here in Rolling Ghettoes townhomes, the maintinence is a joke. They cause DR> more damage than they fix lately. It goes beyond incompetence to DR> maliciousness. SS> SS> SS> It's weird reading these posts about some of you living some where besides SS> home. I remember when most of the people around here were just pups. SS> Swapping warez, and hacking boards. Heh.. Damn I'm old. Hell, who said I didn't live at home? I is just a poor college kid, after all. SS> I live at home still. At least when I'm not at school. I'll graduate in t SS> winter (or spring) as a CSCI major\Networking Minor. I have an Internship Isn't that pretty damn boring to sit through all those computer tech classes? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THROCKMORTON To: COSIMA Subject: Re: Da Summer Date: Thu Jul 10 12:42:57 CDT 1997 Message number: 524 Reply to message number: unavailable >by the way, did you know that the theme song from "gilligan's island" can be >sung to the melody of 'amazing grace'? >works for me... >-=c=- I didn't know that, but I knew you could sing 'Amazing Grace" to the tune of the 'Gilligan's Island' theme. --- þ OLX 1.53 þ TANSTAAFL ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THROCKMORTON To: DAEDALUS RISING Subject: Re: Da Summer Date: Thu Jul 10 12:42:58 CDT 1997 Message number: 525 Reply to message number: unavailable DR>C> prosecute them for tresspass if they try to enter my unit. she's ballist >C> we've gone to the tenants' union- they're great- but it doesn't make alo >C> difference when you're dealing with someone who says 'i don't care WHAT >C> law says, i'm not doing it!' so i guess i'll see her in court when we ha >C> to sue for my deposit back (why do i think it'll be a problem?) and back >C> what a pain. oh well. DR> Sounds like a pain in the ass. DR> Here in Rolling Ghettoes townhomes, the maintinence is a joke. They cause >more damage than they fix lately. It goes beyond incompetence to >maliciousness. I must be lucky. When I want to complain to the landlord I just yell at myself. --- þ OLX 1.53 þ Coffee.Com not found (A)bort, (R)eheat, (S)nooze ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Da Summer Date: Sat Jul 12 17:26:43 CDT 1997 Message number: 526 Reply to message number: 521 DR> Here in Rolling Ghettoes townhomes, the maintinence is a joke. They cause DR> more damage than they fix lately. It goes beyond incompetence to DR> maliciousness. * i just keep being reminded of the eddie murphy routine on saturday nite live. KILL MY LANDLORD. C-i-l-l. Kill my landlord. * actually, i'm not that hostile. i figure she has to live with herself every day, and that's punishment enough..and, even worse, she has to look at herself in the mirror. mmmmmrrrooow! -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Slick Snail Subject: Re: Da Summer Date: Sat Jul 12 17:29:33 CDT 1997 Message number: 527 Reply to message number: 522 SS> It's weird reading these posts about some of you living some where besides SS> home. I remember when most of the people around here were just pups. SS> Swapping warez, and hacking boards. Heh.. Damn I'm old. SS> SS> I live at home still. At least when I'm not at school. I'll graduate in t SS> winter (or spring) as a CSCI major\Networking Minor. I have an Internship SS> 3M that is a friggen gold mine right now. I should get hired on there afte SS> the summer, and not have to interview anywhere else, but it's a long drive SS> from Maple Grove to there. SS> SS> SS> Slick Snail * hi slick. i've *always* been an old coot. even when i was a kid and lived at home, LOL! what's SCSI? boy, that would be great if you could get it at Mother M- they're one of the few big corps that really seems to be doing good, and not 'downsizing' and that kind of bullshit. what kind of thing will you do for your internship? (be sure you check out the 3M store-- if yr employed there you can get really great discounts on all kinds of odd things) -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Throckmorton Subject: Re: Da Summer Date: Sat Jul 12 17:30:56 CDT 1997 Message number: 528 Reply to message number: 524 T> I didn't know that, but I knew you could sing 'Amazing Grace" to the T> tune of the 'Gilligan's Island' theme. * LOL! yup...and all the poetry of emily dickenson can be sung to 'the yellow rose of texas.' no problem ruining yr day, i enjoy it... -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: All Subject: the meaning of life... Date: Mon Jul 21 15:47:48 CDT 1997 Message number: 529 Reply to message number: unavailable I have a question for all of you... What is the meaning of life? Is the meaning of life reproduction? And if so then what is the meaning of reproduction? I would like someone to try to disprove the idea that the meaning of life is reproduction. Thanks peoplz! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: the meaning of life... Date: Wed Jul 23 10:32:46 CDT 1997 Message number: 530 Reply to message number: 529 FE> I have a question for all of you... What is the meaning of life? Is the FE> meaning of life reproduction? And if so then what is the meaning of FE> reproduction? I would like someone to try to disprove the idea that the FE> meaning of life is reproduction. Thanks peoplz! There's no meaning to life except what you put into it. If you really believe tahat we're only here to fuck and make babies, then you're missing the boat methinks ... (not you personally, you in general). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: the meaning of life... Date: Wed Jul 23 17:03:18 CDT 1997 Message number: 531 Reply to message number: 529 FE> I have a question for all of you... What is the meaning of life? Is the To put us to the true test of eternal damnation or salvation. We only get one chance to find Jesus, and if our logic prevails our flesh gets knawed upon by wormish snake devil things that represent pure evil like those that don't get they're names written in the heavenly guest book. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TEMP To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: the meaning of life... Date: Thu Jul 24 09:22:44 CDT 1997 Message number: 532 Reply to message number: 529 water invented DNA and then DNA invented life all for the purpose of ... ta...da... getting itself carried around. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: the meaning of life... Date: Thu Jul 24 19:29:45 CDT 1997 Message number: 533 Reply to message number: 529 FE> I have a question for all of you... What is the meaning of life? Is the FE> meaning of life reproduction? And if so then what is the meaning of FE> reproduction? I would like someone to try to disprove the idea that the FE> meaning of life is reproduction. Thanks peoplz! * the meaning of life to me is to exit the planet having made it a better place in some way. if you do that by a baby, a song, a poem, a house, a hug, a garden,...whatever works for you... -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: the meaning of life... Date: Fri Jul 25 17:00:23 CDT 1997 Message number: 534 Reply to message number: 530 DR> There's no meaning to life except what you put into it. If you really beli DR> tahat we're only here to fuck and make babies, then you're missing the boat DR> methinks ... (not you personally, you in general). I agree with that part of what your saying... But there would be no life without reproduction. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: the meaning of life... Date: Mon Jul 28 04:44:55 CDT 1997 Message number: 535 Reply to message number: 534 FE> I agree with that part of what your saying... But there would be no life FE> without reproduction. * snotty response: and here *I* thought there was no life without *music.* real response: fatal, DR's answer hinges on the word 'only'. there are some religious rightists who will say that a woman's life is literally not worth it if she hasn't had a baby and 'propagated the species' (never mind that the species seems to be surviving just fine.) * as a female who decided long ago not to have children, these kinds of asshole remarks piss me off considerably. i don't care to hav e the sum total of my life's worth being determined on whether i allowed myself to get knocked up or not. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FATAL ERROR To: Cosima Subject: Re: the meaning of life... Date: Tue Jul 29 19:03:45 CDT 1997 Message number: 536 Reply to message number: 535 C> as a female who decided long ago not to have children, these kinds of asshol C> remarks piss me off considerably. i don't care to hav e the sum total of my C> life's worth being determined on whether i allowed myself to get knocked up I am open minded... I am seeking the RIGHT answer... OR the best opinion. Since you are a female who has decided not to have kids what do you consider the meaning of life? Thanks! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TEMP To: Fatal Error Subject: Re: the meaning of life... Date: Wed Jul 30 06:18:28 CDT 1997 Message number: 537 Reply to message number: 536 Butinski here. Since the human race has overdone the command to go forth and multiply, and has gone forth exponentially overboard, whether one has children has no bearing on one's worth, if it ever did. My father could take comfort that "well, at least I raised six kids." I cannot say the same for raising three kids; the world wasn't needy in my generation. The complete, or nearly complete, understanding of the meaning of life is not attainable, because the universe is not only grander than we imagine, it is greater than we *can* imagine. Look at any serious discussion on any important topic: the ramifications and searches for solutions to problems get branchier and tangledier the more we co-cogitate. We reach no ends, we do exhoust our energies and intellectual reaches. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BADLANDS To: All Subject: ...and death Date: Sun Aug 03 16:20:29 CDT 1997 Message number: 538 Reply to message number: 535 C> as a female who decided long ago not to have children, these kinds of asshol C> remarks piss me off considerably. i don't care to hav e the sum total of my C> life's worth being determined on whether i allowed myself to get knocked up C> not. oooh, flashbacks of _The Handmaiden's Tale_... yipe William Seward Burroughs. 1914 - 1997. R.I.P. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Badlands Subject: Re: ...and death Date: Wed Aug 06 06:53:01 CDT 1997 Message number: 539 Reply to message number: 538 C> as a female who decided long ago not to have children, these kinds of asshol C> remarks piss me off considerably. i don't care to hav e the sum total of my C> life's worth being determined on whether i allowed myself to get knocked up C> not. B> B> B> oooh, flashbacks of _The Handmaiden's Tale_... yipe * exactly! then all of a sudden the science fiction becomes science fact. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: FATAL ERROR Subject: the meaning of life... Date: Wed Aug 06 08:19:57 CDT 1997 Message number: 540 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Fatal Error to All <=- FE> I have a question for all of you... What is the meaning of life? Is FE> the meaning of life reproduction? And if so then what is the meaning FE> of reproduction? I would like someone to try to disprove the idea that FE> the meaning of life is reproduction. Thanks peoplz! The only purpose to life is self-replication / reproduction. Now if your going to turn this into a rant against gays not being able to reproduce sexually with same-sex partners you need to realize that "everything" that we human (or other living things) do is nature. Whether its a penis inserted into an anus or thermo-nuclear war its all nature. ... DOS has a new meaning now: (D)eath (O)f (S)uperman! ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: BIG TEEBO Subject: Re: the meaning of life.. Date: Wed Aug 06 08:19:58 CDT 1997 Message number: 541 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Big Teebo to Fatal Error <=- FE> I have a question for all of you... What is the meaning of life? Is the BT> To put us to the true test of eternal damnation or salvation. We only BT> get one chance to find Jesus, and if our logic prevails our flesh gets BT> knawed upon by wormish snake devil things that represent pure evil BT> like those that don't get they're names written in the heavenly guest BT> book. Hmmm... Ahhh... Ohhh... I better not say anything. ... Bill Clinton - the Eddie Haskel of politics ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Me Date: Sat Aug 23 18:48:45 CDT 1997 Message number: 542 Reply to message number: unavailable Where the hell have I been you ask? Good question. Here's a list of fun summer activities: - Dead grandfather - Dead friend's father - Friend dying of cancer at age 30 - The beginning stages of carpal tunnel Other than that, things are cheery! :) Teebo: I will try calling you again this week, finally tracked down another hard drive (200 meg IDE) for that computer. Sorry for the delay, but this has been a fucking weird summer ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Me Date: Wed Aug 27 15:58:58 CDT 1997 Message number: 543 Reply to message number: 542 DR> - Dead grandfather DR> - Dead friend's father DR> - Friend dying of cancer at age 30 Well, now you can make people feel sorry when they asked what you did over break. Teebo the optimist. DR> - The beginning stages of carpal tunnel Ouch, I don't suppose that's what was up with your foot then? ;) *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TEMP To: All Subject: cheer up Date: Thu Aug 28 08:19:49 CDT 1997 Message number: 544 Reply to message number: unavailable i just went to the doctor and he looked at all the funny moles i got and said i am going to live. Take down the crepe. temp; tbob; temple of MN ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: All Subject: goodbye. Date: Thu Aug 28 18:01:00 CDT 1997 Message number: 545 Reply to message number: unavailable Well, this is the last time I'll be around for a while. I'm going of to college on Saturday, and I don't think I'll have time for another visit. I'm going to Boston University, so I'm a little out of reach. I'll be back in December only to leave a few weeks later. All I can say is thanks to everyone. I've had a lot of fun, and many revelatory, and insightful conversations here... You're all great, and I hope to stop by again sometime. Until then. Specter, leaving the stage. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BLACK KNIGHT To: All Subject: FUCK? Date: Fri Aug 29 18:47:05 CDT 1997 Message number: 546 Reply to message number: unavailable What happened to the F.U.C.K. text files? Are they here anymore? I was reading some of them and they said they were from Dissent 612, but it listed the old phone number. BTW, F.U.C.K. stands for "Fucked Up College Kids" BLACK KNiGHT