------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: All Subject: Religion Date: Tue May 17 12:47:23 CDT 1994 Message number: 1 Reply to message number: unavailable Where is the place of religion in this age when no one and nothing seems to be perfect anymore? This is a base to discuss religion; both on the larger scale, and on a more personal note. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Starfire Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Wed Oct 09 16:42:30 CDT 1996 Message number: 2 Reply to message number: -4 S> Uh no, wood. the only substance I had easy access to was the remnants of a S> long wood staff I have possessed for nigh on 6 years, the wood was struck S> down from a tree during a storm, at which point I used it as a staff until t S> staff broke about 6 months ago. Runes seemed like a good use for it. S> S> That seems like a wonderful medium to make runes of. It in probably embued S> with your energy. That was my guess. I think you're definitely right. I've had the wood for so long I would have trouble believing that none of my energy has entered it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CLAYMOER To: Starfire Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Wed Oct 09 17:58:44 CDT 1996 Message number: 3 Reply to message number: -7 S> Well I feel that it was interpereted as things being all messed up (they wer S> and then my relationship struggles coming to a harmonic resolve. I don't S> remember the runes though. The advice was from the runes. The Runes provide more of a direction than a prediction. I've always believe that you must be the one to initiate what the Runes are saying, that it will not happen unless you let it. I have experimented with this. I think it may all be a matter of how much faith you are willing to put into such things.... Later, Claymoer - The night is my companion, solitude my guide. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CLAYMOER To: Starfire Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Wed Oct 09 18:02:14 CDT 1996 Message number: 4 Reply to message number: -6 S> I did just a basic three rune casting but I usually do a 10 card celtic cros S> layout for my tarot. I've used both methods for the Runes. The 3 Rune cast is often less informative. I usually dont do the Celtic cross format for querents, I usually just use it for personal use. I dont really know why except to say that I feel more comfortable doing just the 3 Rune layout for others. Later, Claymoer - Life is just a dream on the way to death. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Claymoer Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Wed Oct 09 18:45:22 CDT 1996 Message number: 5 Reply to message number: 3 C> The Runes provide more of a direction than a prediction. I've always C> believe that you must be the one to initiate what the Runes are saying, that C> it will not happen unless you let it. I have experimented with this. C> Exactly. Unless there is another person around throwing some black energy into it. You may have seen that, too. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: Starfire Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Thu Oct 10 01:40:21 CDT 1996 Message number: 6 Reply to message number: -8 S> I keep my cards in a cedar box with faeries on it and then they are wrapped S> a hankerchief that my (now deceased) grandma gave to me. I prefer keeping them in dark midnight blue, or black silk.... The best way to keep them clean/powerful for use.. DEViOUS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CLAYMOER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Thu Oct 10 07:30:53 CDT 1996 Message number: 7 Reply to message number: 5 C> The Runes provide more of a direction than a prediction. I've always C> believe that you must be the one to initiate what the Runes are saying, that C> it will not happen unless you let it. I have experimented with this. C> F> Exactly. Unless there is another person around throwing some black F> energy into it. You may have seen that, too. :) Indeed I have. It is kind of disapointing when one does this, it interferes with the natural process of the power of the Runes. Not only that the Runes themselves carry the residual black energy after the cast has been completed. Later, Claymoer - The night is my companion, solitude my guide. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Claymoer Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Thu Oct 10 07:57:08 CDT 1996 Message number: 8 Reply to message number: 7 C> Indeed I have. It is kind of disapointing when one does this, it C> interferes with the natural process of the power of the Runes. Not only C> that the Runes themselves carry the residual black energy after the cast has C> been completed. C> It is possible to learn how to clear them afterwards. Also, keeping a quartz or bolldstone crystal in the reading can help deflect that energy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GOLDILOCKS To: Starfire Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Fri Oct 11 13:27:33 CDT 1996 Message number: 9 Reply to message number: -30 G> I would like to see a nice set made out of Ivory...that would be cool. Or G> pewter... S> S> ouch ivory makes me sad. Only when they are killing perfectly healthy animals to get it... :( -Goldi- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CLAYMOER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Sat Oct 12 17:29:30 CDT 1996 Message number: 10 Reply to message number: 8 F> It is possible to learn how to clear them afterwards. Also, keepin F> a quartz or bolldstone crystal in the reading can help deflect that energy. I never thought of that. I am not real clear on how to go about clearing the energy from the Runes if they are influenced ie: black energy and whatnot. Could you shed some light on this? Later, Claymoer - I'm never alone, I'm alone all the time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Claymoer Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Sun Oct 13 02:32:01 CDT 1996 Message number: 11 Reply to message number: 10 C> I never thought of that. I am not real clear on how to go about clearing C> the energy from the Runes if they are influenced ie: black energy and C> whatnot. Could you shed some light on this? C> White l;ight, or "God Light" is the most powerfull energy there is. After all, it is the creating source of all other energy. A lot can be cleared or flushed out by channeling white light through it. Also, there are several methods of grounding, which can partially release bad energy. There are books that tell you some of this and a good guru could help. One useful book is an old one from the '70s called *Psychic Self Defense.* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Froggy Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Sun Oct 13 08:26:36 CDT 1996 Message number: 12 Reply to message number: -1 S> I keep my cards in a cedar box with faeries on it and then they are wrapped S> a hankerchief that my (now deceased) grandma gave to me. F> F> Most of mine are also in wooden boxes, wrapped in either silk or F> cotton. Now that I have more experience in working with them it feels almost like a sigh of reliefjust to hold them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Froggy Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Sun Oct 13 08:27:10 CDT 1996 Message number: 13 Reply to message number: 0 S> I did just a basic three rune casting but I usually do a 10 card celtic cros S> layout for my tarot. F> F> Have you discovered any of the little tricks you can use to enhance F> Celtic Cross reading? Not that I know of...are you willing to share? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Froggy Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Sun Oct 13 08:28:01 CDT 1996 Message number: 14 Reply to message number: 1 F> Sounds like it has a lot of good energy with it. Is it oak, by any F> chance? S> S> I love oak. We hold our circles under a huge one. F> F> Protection. Stability. I always picture myself as an oak when I ground. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Specter Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Sun Oct 13 08:30:37 CDT 1996 Message number: 15 Reply to message number: 2 S> That seems like a wonderful medium to make runes of. It in probably embued S> with your energy. S> S> That was my guess. I think you're definitely right. I've had the wood for S> long I would have trouble believing that none of my energy has entered it. I think that anything can be if you use it enough. I happen to always feel better if I wrap myself in the cloak I made. It is a sort of returning to the essence of yourself that is stored there. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Claymoer Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Sun Oct 13 08:32:13 CDT 1996 Message number: 16 Reply to message number: 3 C> I think it may all be a matter of how much faith you are willing to put into C> such things.... If you put enough faith in anything it will work for you. -Starfire -your words keep me alive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Claymoer Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Sun Oct 13 08:33:32 CDT 1996 Message number: 17 Reply to message number: 4 C> I've used both methods for the Runes. The 3 Rune cast is often less C> informative. I usually dont do the Celtic cross format for querents, I C> usually just use it for personal use. I dont really know why except to say C> that I feel more comfortable doing just the 3 Rune layout for others. I have never done a casting for anyone with them there. I somehow still feel inadequate to do so. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Froggy Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Sun Oct 13 08:34:22 CDT 1996 Message number: 18 Reply to message number: 5 F> Exactly. Unless there is another person around throwing some black F> energy into it. You may have seen that, too. :) Maybe that is why I don't do readings with others. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CLAYMOER To: Froggy Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Sun Oct 13 13:50:17 CDT 1996 Message number: 19 Reply to message number: 11 F> White l;ight, or "God Light" is the most powerfull energy there is. F> After all, it is the creating source of all other energy. A lot can be F> cleared or flushed out by channeling white light through it. Also, there ar F> several methods of grounding, which can partially release bad energy. There F> are books that tell you some of this and a good guru could help. One useful F> book is an old one from the '70s called *Psychic Self Defense.* I must look into this. I've wanted to learn this for some time now, thanks. Later, Claymoer - I'm never alone, I'm alone all the time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CLAYMOER To: Starfire Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Sun Oct 13 13:51:21 CDT 1996 Message number: 20 Reply to message number: 16 S> If you put enough faith in anything it will work for you. My belief exactly. Later, Claymoer - Life is just a dream on the way to death. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Starfire Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Sun Oct 13 16:58:33 CDT 1996 Message number: 21 Reply to message number: 12 S> Now that I have more experience in working with them it feels almost like a S> sigh of reliefjust to hold them. Does the word, "centered" ring a bell? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Starfire Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Sun Oct 13 17:09:18 CDT 1996 Message number: 22 Reply to message number: 14 S> I love oak. We hold our circles under a huge one. F> F> Protection. Stability. S> S> I always picture myself as an oak when I ground. I wonder if we were Priestesses together. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Starfire Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Sun Oct 13 17:13:34 CDT 1996 Message number: 23 Reply to message number: 17 S> I have never done a casting for anyone with them there. I somehow still fee S> inadequate to do so. I feel the same way. I am extremely comfortable with cards, and don't remember ever feeling inadequate about them. But runes seem scary to me. I relat to Crystal balls, although (SIGH!) I can't afford one. :( I am also comfortable reading the person directly, without using any medium at all. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Starfire Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Sun Oct 13 17:18:10 CDT 1996 Message number: 24 Reply to message number: 18 F> Exactly. Unless there is another person around throwing some black F> energy into it. You may have seen that, too. :) S> S> Maybe that is why I don't do readings with others. It would be a nutural thing to do. However, you need to learn to positively perceive that negative energy. Just avoiding other people during readings won't necessarily protect you. One of the riskiest things you can do is use alcohol or drugs, or be around others who do. I have a friend who did readings in a bar one Halloween, despite my warnings. And I was adamant about it. I was right. She almost lost all of her ability for a while, and did lose several clients because she was giving them bad readings. It took her almost 6 months to get cleaned up after that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Starfire Subject: Re: Beliefs Date: Tue Oct 15 17:03:57 CDT 1996 Message number: 25 Reply to message number: 15 S> I think that anything can be if you use it enough. I happen to always feel S> better if I wrap myself in the cloak I made. It is a sort of returning to t S> essence of yourself that is stored there. Mmm... Cloaks. I know the feeling. My cloak is sort of a comfort zone for me. I feel like my entire impression is immersed within my cloak. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: REV. THORN To: Froggy Subject: Enochian Magic (was Re: Beliefs) Date: Tue Oct 15 21:03:24 CDT 1996 Message number: 26 Reply to message number: 23 F> I feel the same way. I am extremely comfortable with cards, and F> don't remember ever feeling inadequate about them. But runes seem scary to F> me. I relat to Crystal balls, although (SIGH!) I can't afford one. :( F> I am also comfortable reading the person directly, without using any medium F> all. Froggy, what do you know about Enochian/General Evokative Magic? Does they always require a skryer/seer, or the ablility to do so yourself? Or, using the proper energy, is it possible to manifest the Angel/spirit similar to a "ghost?" aaron ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: All Subject: Christianity Date: Sat Nov 09 03:52:44 CST 1996 Message number: 27 Reply to message number: unavailable I have a question about Christianity for all of you that know a thing or two about it... If you do not believe in Christ, can you still get into heaven? If you do not believe in Christ, but yet believe in a supreme God, can you then get into heaven? *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Christianity Date: Sat Nov 09 09:28:46 CST 1996 Message number: 28 Reply to message number: 27 BT> I have a question about Christianity for all of you that know a thing or tw BT> about it... If you do not believe in Christ, can you still get into heaven BT> If you do not believe in Christ, but yet believe in a supreme God, can you BT> then get into heaven? There's a huge difference between groups. Fundamentalists would say no. If you don't believe in Christ now you will burn in hell later. Some who are a little more liberal in our thinking would say yes. I personally follow a belief that in the afterlife everyone will be aware of God and Christ and in believing in them there will be redeemed, because Christ died to save all. It has a lot to do with God loving everyone universally and wanting everyone to be happy and live on rather than an idea of a wrathful God who will punish all non-believers with intense pain and suffering. That's just me though... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: REV. THORN To: Specter Subject: Re: Christianity Date: Tue Nov 12 14:13:03 CST 1996 Message number: 29 Reply to message number: 28 BT> I have a question about Christianity for all of you that know a thing or t BT> about it... If you do not believe in Christ, can you still get into heaven BT> If you do not believe in Christ, but yet believe in a supreme God, can you BT> then get into heaven? My mother once talked to me about this, and I had previously thought she was a fairly conservative catholic, until then... She believes that everyone* that believes in a religion will goto heaven. The trick? stick with the faith you were born into, you were born into it for a reason. aaron ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Rev. Thorn Subject: Re: Christianity Date: Wed Nov 13 16:32:29 CST 1996 Message number: 30 Reply to message number: 29 RT> My mother once talked to me about this, and I had previously thought she wa RT> fairly conservative catholic, until then... She believes that everyone* th RT> believes in a religion will goto heaven. The trick? stick with the faith RT> you were born into, you were born into it for a reason. Interesting. That would seem to bridge the bounds of conservative catholicism in some aspects, though I believe I can detect a catholic basis behind it, I, of course, cannot be sure. Makes reasonable sense to stick with what you believe in unless given some strong reason otherwise. I always feel happier expecting pretty much everyone to be present in an afterlife, it's a very reassuring proposition to my instincts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Rev. Thorn Subject: Re: Christianity Date: Thu Nov 14 13:40:58 CST 1996 Message number: 31 Reply to message number: 29 RT> believes in a religion will goto heaven. The trick? stick with the faith RT> you were born into, you were born into it for a reason. So what if you were born atheist, and then went Christian? ...Off the subject, but I am also wondering that if your not born Jewish, if you can become it? It wouldn't be kosher, but is it possible? *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Christianity Date: Fri Nov 15 11:01:13 CST 1996 Message number: 32 Reply to message number: 31 BT> subject, but I am also wondering that if your not born Jewish, if you can BT> become it? It wouldn't be kosher, but is it possible? BT> Ask Sammy Davis Jr. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: REV. THORN To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Christianity Date: Sat Nov 16 17:25:43 CST 1996 Message number: 33 Reply to message number: 31 RT> believes in a religion will goto heaven. The trick? stick with the faith RT> you were born into, you were born into it for a reason. BT> BT> So what if you were born atheist, and then went Christian? ...Off the BT> subject, but I am also wondering that if your not born Jewish, if you can BT> become it? It wouldn't be kosher, but is it possible? I couldn't tell ya. It's my marm's philos, and i'm not sure what's going down. maybe no one is born atheist? :P as for the second part, ja. Jews did conversions, like, when they started and stuff. er. aaron ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JER To: All Subject: RE: Chistianity Date: Mon Nov 18 21:26:59 CST 1996 Message number: 34 Reply to message number: unavailable Me, in my small strange jerianity, believe(depending on how sober I am when you ask me), that people are given the "second chance" if you will when they die. After the death, but before the ressurection Chirst decended into hell and brought back with him the "prophets" of the old testement. So, you do not always go to hell for the rest of eternity, and not "knowing" Christ should not necessarily be taken as automatic damnation and eternal wailing or gnashing of teeth. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: All Subject: 666 Date: Mon Nov 25 16:08:04 CST 1996 Message number: 35 Reply to message number: unavailable X-URL: http://hyperarchive.lcs.mit.edu/telecom-archives X-Telecom-Digest: Volume 16, Issue 625, Message 16 of 17 Mike Fox wrote: > When I was travelling in San Francisco this spring, I was flipping > through the phone book in the hotel room and saw that every telephone > number for a Jesuit college in SF (I don't remember its exact name) is > in exchange 666! That exchange probably belongs to their PBX, because > I didn't see any other 666 numbers in a quick scan. > I guess if they can put up with it, others can too :) (This might be useful if you have to persuade someone to accept this exchange.) They can put up with it because the 666 specified in Revelation 13:18 will not be a number literally associated with the beast. Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.[Rev. 13:18, New American Standard Version] A form of numerology common among first century AD Jews was called "geametria," a corruption of the Greek word "geometria." Each letter in a person's name was assigned a value corresponding to the letter's alphabetic sequence. By adding up the numbers of a person's name, it was possible to "calculate the number" of someone. Therefore, the 666 was not a number readily visible in a phone number, or social security number, or any other visible form, by something that could be calculated. (I understand that Emperor Nero's name fits the 666 well, as do a number of other evil people throughout history, depending on the alphabet used.) Clayton E. Cramer Technical Marketing Manager, Diamond Lane Communications email: cramer@dlcc.com web page: http://www.cs.sonoma.edu/~cramerc Opinions are strictly my own; DLCC doesn't pay me for non-technical opinions. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: 666 Date: Sat Dec 23 16:24:37 CST 1995 Message number: 36 Reply to message number: 35 BT> Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate BT> the number of the beast, for the number is that of a BT> man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.[Rev. BT> 13:18, New American Standard Version] BT> BT> "geametria," a corruption of the Greek word "geometria." Each letter BT> in a person's name was assigned a value corresponding to the letter's BT> alphabetic sequence. By adding up the numbers of a person's name, it BT> was possible to "calculate the number" of someone. Therefore, the 666 BT> was not a number readily visible in a phone number, or social security BT> number, or any other visible form, by something that could be BT> calculated. (I understand that Emperor Nero's name fits the 666 well, BT> as do a number of other evil people throughout history, depending on BT> the alphabet used.) BT> Thank you for posting this. I have posted before about the Jews and early Christians' preoccupation with numerology. It was (is) a major part of their religious practice. Personally, I don't buy it, but then, I am a 2. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Froggy Subject: Re: 666 Date: Sun Dec 24 03:16:47 CST 1995 Message number: 37 Reply to message number: 36 F> Thank you for posting this. I have posted before about the Jews an You betcha. F> their religious practice. Personally, I don't buy it, but then, I am a 2. How could you be a 2? How is this calculated, if all the numbers are added up then you could only be a 2 if your name was "ff" or something similar? *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: 666 Date: Wed Nov 27 09:33:24 CST 1996 Message number: 38 Reply to message number: 37 F> their religious practice. Personally, I don't buy it, but then, I am a 2. BT> BT> How could you be a 2? How is this calculated, if all the numbers are added BT> then you could only be a 2 if your name was "ff" or something similar? BT> It depends onwhat system of numerology you are using. The most commom system adds up letter values and divides by the number of letters. It is an "octal" system, with letters numbered from 1 - 8. I have met people whose names distill down to anything from 1 to 8 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: REV. THORN To: Froggy Subject: Re: 666 Date: Wed Nov 27 13:04:17 CST 1996 Message number: 39 Reply to message number: 38 F> It depends onwhat system of numerology you are using. The most F> commom system adds up letter values and divides by the number of letters. I F> is an "octal" system, with letters numbered from 1 - 8. I have met people F> whose names distill down to anything from 1 to 8 my name in hebrew ads up to a beautiful 256. nerdy, eh? aaron ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Rev. Thorn Subject: Re: 666 Date: Wed Nov 27 16:44:27 CST 1996 Message number: 40 Reply to message number: 39 F> It depends onwhat system of numerology you are using. The most F> commom system adds up letter values and divides by the number of letters. I F> is an "octal" system, with letters numbered from 1 - 8. I have met people F> whose names distill down to anything from 1 to 8 RT> RT> my name in hebrew ads up to a beautiful 256. nerdy, eh? RT> Which system? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: REV. THORN To: Froggy Subject: Re: 666 Date: Fri Nov 29 05:43:27 CST 1996 Message number: 41 Reply to message number: 40 RT> my name in hebrew ads up to a beautiful 256. nerdy, eh? RT> F> Which system? By taking the numberical values of Hebrew characters, Aleph = 1, Heh = 5, etc. aaron ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Rev. Thorn Subject: Re: 666 Date: Fri Nov 29 13:23:41 CST 1996 Message number: 42 Reply to message number: 41 RT> my name in hebrew ads up to a beautiful 256. nerdy, eh? RT> F> Which system? RT> RT> By taking the numberical values of Hebrew characters, Aleph = 1, Heh = 5, e RT> Hmmm. Interesting. I'll have to cogitate on that. BTW, your name has 3 vowels, which do not exist in Hebrew. Do you know the Hebrew spelling? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Froggy Subject: Re: 666 Date: Fri Nov 29 16:37:57 CST 1996 Message number: 43 Reply to message number: 42 F> Hmmm. Interesting. I'll have to cogitate on that. BTW, your name F> has 3 vowels, which do not exist in Hebrew. Do you know the Hebrew spelling I thought that they did, but they just weren't used in God's name? *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: 666 Date: Fri Nov 29 19:00:29 CST 1996 Message number: 44 Reply to message number: 43 F> Hmmm. Interesting. I'll have to cogitate on that. BTW, your name F> has 3 vowels, which do not exist in Hebrew. Do you know the Hebrew spelling BT> BT> I thought that they did, but they just weren't used in God's name? BT> No. Hebrew has no vowels at all. Although more recent forms have experimented with them, using special characters where there would be vowels, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: All Subject: hey zeus Date: Sat Nov 30 10:45:02 CST 1996 Message number: 45 Reply to message number: unavailable I was wondering if any of you know of any factual information relating to Jesus other than that "he lived". Could he of just been a total quack, much like several of the self-named Messiahs we have today? *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: hey zeus Date: Sun Dec 01 08:20:30 CST 1996 Message number: 46 Reply to message number: 45 BT> I was wondering if any of you know of any factual information relating to BT> Jesus other than that "he lived". Could he of just been a total quack, muc BT> like several of the self-named Messiahs we have today? BT> Actually, we do not even have positive historical proof that he lived. What we have is a lot of second hand information about him and writings of his followers. Those of us who believe that he did really live are basing our faith on these claims, not on actual documentable proof. One thing is for sure -- Jesus did not proclaim that he was the Messiah. He was very clear that he was sent by God and in direct contact with God, and acted as a teacher to convey the Wodr of God to others. From that , the Christian world believes he is the Messiah. However, he could NEVER qualify to be the Messiah of the Jews, for 2 reasons: 1. He was born at the wrong time of year. Numerology again. Jesus was actually born in early March, and the Jewish Messiah would have had to come in September, during the High Holy Days. In addition, the Messiah would have had to be descended from King David on his father's side, because it was a paternalistic society. But Christians claim that Mary was a virgin, hence Jesus had no father, and the Jews would never accept a bastard as their Messiah. I believe that this is why he never claimed that he was the Messiah. Interestingly, BOTH mary and Joseph were directly descended from David, especially on Mary's side, who had a great-grandmother who was a high priestess in the House of David. Both Mary and Joseph were Levites, which would have been another qualification. You asked for us to add to a list of suggested reading. For those who are inclined this way, I would suggest the *Lost Books of Eden.* They are a gorup of biblical writings and books that were actually canon and included in the Bible at one time. They were removed from the Bibles we know from the 2nd to the 5th centuries AD by several Vatican Conferences.I have been intrigued at what is included in these removed writings and how it differs from what has been passed down to us. For example: we are told in Luke about Mary looking for Jesus and finding him at the temple talking to the priests. She chastized him, saying that she had been looking for him and they were worried about him. The Enen books say that Jesus was 13 years old and was explaining to the priests about "the rotatios of the planets, the origins of creation, and many other things." The priests called him "rabbi." Imagine the Conference of Cardinals today sitting in a circle around a thirteen year old calling him a teacher. This also means that he had been ritually circumcized, which is not described in the "approved" Bible, but was in the Eden writings. In addition, at the age of 13, he would have had his Bar Mitsvah and been admitted to the company of accepted male Jews, or he would not have been allowed to enter the Temple at all. The Eden Books also contain a great deal of information about Mary, and give a deep understanding of why she was held in such high esteem. I will expound more on that if anyone is interested. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: hey zeus Date: Sun Dec 01 17:15:14 CST 1996 Message number: 47 Reply to message number: 46 F> The Eden Books also contain a great deal of information about Mary, F> and give a deep understanding of why she was held in such high esteem. I wi F> expound more on that if anyone is interested. I'm very interested. I'm assuming you're refering to Mary mother of Christ and not Mary Magdalene. F> Christians claim that Mary was a virgin, hence Jesus had no father, and the I know a few Christians, myself included, who might say that Joseph was Jesus' father in terms of parenting and appearances to the outside world and that that would count as Christ's decendant of David father. Something I've thought about based on some readings, is that the divinity of Christ comes from Christ having a greater communion with God. Something similar to the enlightenment of Buddha, and that Christ's divine and perfected nature made him the messiah, no matter what the previous foretellings might have said. Though I do agree that Jews were looking for something very definite and if Christ couldn't meet all the requirements exactly it wouldn't have been wise to claim he was the messiah. Sorry if most of that was off topic. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: THROCKMORTON To: BIG TEEBO Subject: Christianity Date: Tue Dec 03 11:42:23 CST 1996 Message number: 48 Reply to message number: unavailable BT>I have a question about Christianity for all of you that know a thing or tw >about it... If you do not believe in Christ, can you still get into heaven >If you do not believe in Christ, but yet believe in a supreme God, can you >then get into heaven? BT>*teebo Depends which Christian you ask. But I do believe that just believing in Christ is not enough. I remember a quote that goes something like, "The Devil believes in the power of Christ, and shakes with fear." --- ž OLX 1.53 ž Armed, we are CITIZENS. Disarmed, we are SUBJECTS. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: REV. THORN To: Froggy Subject: Re: 666 Date: Wed Dec 04 09:39:52 CST 1996 Message number: 49 Reply to message number: 42 RT> my name in hebrew ads up to a beautiful 256. nerdy, eh? RT> F> Which system? RT> RT> By taking the numberical values of Hebrew characters, Aleph = 1, Heh = 5, e RT> F> Hmmm. Interesting. I'll have to cogitate on that. BTW, your name F> has 3 vowels, which do not exist in Hebrew. Do you know the Hebrew spelling The name Aaron = AHRN = Aleph Heh Resh Nun hmm. aaron ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Rev. Thorn Subject: Re: 666 Date: Wed Dec 04 12:12:40 CST 1996 Message number: 50 Reply to message number: 49 F> Hmmm. Interesting. I'll have to cogitate on that. BTW, your name F> has 3 vowels, which do not exist in Hebrew. Do you know the Hebrew spelling RT> He He Interesting. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: All Subject: Tower of Destiny Date: Sat Dec 21 06:27:15 CST 1996 Message number: 51 Reply to message number: unavailable Damn. People, if you are HIGHLY into Magic and Spirituality, and LOVE to talk about it, well, call Tower of Destiny. The number is in the bbs list, I think it was called The Witche's Place or Dragon's Lair when the # was put in there, so look under those two and the # will be in there. :) LOrd Devious ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Froggy Subject: Re: 666 Date: Sun Dec 29 09:04:32 CST 1996 Message number: 52 Reply to message number: 36 F> Thank you for posting this. I have posted before about the Jews an F> early Christians' preoccupation with numerology. It was (is) a major part o F> their religious practice. Personally, I don't buy it, but then, I am a 2. : From what I have read and heard I found that many parts of the christian religion perfectly coencide with the numeric parts of the goddess religions. The sacred numbers were 13, 7, 3. 13 deciples, 7 seals, 3 gods in one... coencidence? I think not. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Starfire Subject: Re: 666 Date: Mon Dec 30 12:02:09 CST 1996 Message number: 53 Reply to message number: 52 S> From what I have read and heard I found that many parts of the christian S> religion perfectly coencide with the numeric parts of the goddess religions. S> The sacred numbers were 13, 7, 3. 13 deciples, 7 seals, 3 gods in one... S> coencidence? I think not. * i got a kick out of reading that if you assign the ASCII numbers to bill gates' name it ends up as 666. gates is the antichrist! :) -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Cosima Subject: Re: 666 Date: Mon Dec 30 14:12:37 CST 1996 Message number: 54 Reply to message number: 53 C> i got a kick out of reading that if you assign the ASCII numbers to bill C> gates' name it ends up as 666. C> gates is the antichrist! :) Wow, finally a success for numerology! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Cosima Subject: Re: 666 Date: Tue Dec 31 04:56:07 CST 1996 Message number: 55 Reply to message number: 53 C> i got a kick out of reading that if you assign the ASCII numbers to bill C> gates' name it ends up as 666. C> gates is the antichrist! :) That is funny! Somehow, I believe it, too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NINFAN To: Cosima Subject: Re: 666 Date: Wed Jan 01 07:58:32 CST 1997 Message number: 56 Reply to message number: 53 C> i got a kick out of reading that if you assign the ASCII numbers to bill C> gates' name it ends up as 666. C> gates is the antichrist! :) Cool. I never even thought about that. I only have memorized some of the ascii codes, but it sounds about right. hehe That's cool. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: All Subject: Grey Cloud Date: Fri Jan 03 10:30:13 CST 1997 Message number: 57 Reply to message number: unavailable Hey everyone.. Well ,I am back into this magic and occult after taking an actual break from it for the last 2 months, but I did get a network runnin, but my board may be going down, cause of some problems arising in my life, but who carez. But anywayz, I was wondering IF ANYONE has been to "Grey Cloud Island" with friends or by them selves? cause, I am going with a bunch of friends.. There is a church there, a satanism one, and in order to be accepted into the group, you haveta drinka cup of goat's blood, so should I do it, or not people? Cause, that is cruel, to the goats, but that is like a sacrifice to the satan man and other underworld freax =)... If anyone wants to join (we may even RAID the damn place depending on how many of us there are) lemme know, and I can like arrange something... Thanx Devious ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Devious Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Fri Jan 03 12:30:32 CST 1997 Message number: 58 Reply to message number: 55 D> There is a church there, a satanism one, and in order to be accepted int D> the group, you haveta drinka cup of goat's blood, so should I do it, or not D> people? Cause, that is cruel, to the goats, but that is like a sacrifice to Besides the obvious unfortunate effect on the goat, I think that you should think carefully about where you are placing your energy. Does satan really seem to you to be the best spiritual leader for you? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Devious Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Fri Jan 03 17:26:18 CST 1997 Message number: 59 Reply to message number: 55 D> But anywayz, I was wondering IF ANYONE has been to "Grey Cloud Island" D> with friends or by them selves? cause, I am going with a bunch of friends.. Which one is it, where's the island located? D> There is a church there, a satanism one, and in order to be accepted int D> the group, you haveta drinka cup of goat's blood, so should I do it, or not D> people? Quite honestly, it seems really stupid. First of all, Satanism is a very selfish religion ... and second, having to do something as lame as drink goat's blood to be accepted by people is just plain wrong. If they can't accept you for who you are, and want to make you jump through a bunch of hoops just to be accepted ... fuck 'em. Even though I don't agree with them either, you'd do beter to show up at some pagan info meeting at The Laughing Cup than show up on some indian burial ground at midnight to drink goats blood and chant agt the moon. One more aside - if they really are Satanists, don't be surprised to find out they're using you ... for entertainment value, money, whatever. That's basically the Satanist philosophy, as I understand it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: Froggy Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Fri Jan 03 21:08:32 CST 1997 Message number: 60 Reply to message number: 58 F> Besides the obvious unfortunate effect on the goat, I think that yo F> should think carefully about where you are placing your energy. Does satan F> really seem to you to be the best spiritual leader for you? Nope, I go with mainly the pagan tradition gods.. I have no belief in "god" or "satan", but since I had to pick one tonight, I would choose "god" over the devil... So.. I usually follow like Odin (Norse God) and such... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Fri Jan 03 21:17:27 CST 1997 Message number: 61 Reply to message number: 59 DR> Which one is it, where's the island located? No, it isn't an ACTUAL island, it just got the name cause okay, there is like a two mile strecth road, then at the end, a dead end, and it is like a grove... =) DR> Quite honestly, it seems really stupid. First of all, Satanism is a very DR> selfish religion ... and second, having to do something as lame as drink DR> goat's blood to be accepted by people is just plain wrong. If they can't DR> accept you for who you are, and want to make you jump through a bunch of DR> hoops just to be accepted ... fuck 'em. Nope, I do not plan to do this, I personally wanna RAID the satanist's church... Cause, I have had weird "VISIONS" in the past about the devil, and he has had some great pain inflicted on my thoughts of him, so I personally wanna destroy this group. DR> some pagan info meeting at The Laughing Cup than show up on some indian Shadow, he is my BESTEST OF ALL BBS FRIENDS :) We run PaganNet together, and hmm.. The next pagan study guide (PSG) is gonna be, not this sunday, but the next... Very interesting topics... UFOs Fairys, paranormal, Spiritual, Magic(k) -Higher -Lesser and much more... Stop by NEW MOON RISING if ya can for ya spiritual people interested in Paganism and the occult.. To the christians to clear what is going on up: "Well, due to the fact that so many christians believe anything not of christ is satanism, well, you are wrong, like wicca, you have to have perfect love, and perfect trust, so, if this was true, then we wouldn't have nothing to do with such a thing as the devil. In the Fido Echoes, so many of these christians have been getting kicked out of the echo for coming in and just telling witches and all to f*** o** and such so, I wanna get it straight that in NO WAY do we have to do with the devil, or at least I don't cause I practice..." dev! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BADLANDS To: Devious Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Fri Jan 03 22:14:47 CST 1997 Message number: 62 Reply to message number: 57 D> There is a church there, a satanism one, and in order to be accepted int D> the group, you haveta drinka cup of goat's blood, so should I do it, or not What do they* know about Satanism? Sacrifice isn't part of it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Devious Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Fri Jan 03 23:37:57 CST 1997 Message number: 63 Reply to message number: 60 F> Besides the obvious unfortunate effect on the goat, I think that yo F> should think carefully about where you are placing your energy. Does satan F> really seem to you to be the best spiritual leader for you? D> D> Nope, I go with mainly the pagan tradition gods.. I have no belief in "god" D> or "satan", but since I had to pick one tonight, I would choose "god" over t D> devil... So.. I usually follow like Odin (Norse God) and such... Sometimes a name is the only difference. Which has more characteristics like Odin, the Judeo/Christian God, or satan? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Devious Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Fri Jan 03 23:40:44 CST 1997 Message number: 64 Reply to message number: 61 D> To the christians to clear what is going on up: D> D> "Well, due to the fact that so many christians believe anything not of chris D> is satanism, well, you are wrong, like wicca, you have to have perfect love D> and perfect trust, so, if this was true, then we wouldn't have nothing to d D> with such a thing as the devil. In the Fido Echoes, so many of these I am a Christian, but I do not have this opinion. I know New Moon Rising, laughing cup, and some of the members pretty well, too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Devious Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sat Jan 04 06:37:00 CST 1997 Message number: 65 Reply to message number: 57 D> may be going down, cause of some problems arising in my life, but who carez. Why, what's up? D> But anywayz, I was wondering IF ANYONE has been to "Grey Cloud Island" D> with friends or by them selves? cause, I am going with a bunch of friends.. Never heard of it, where is it? D> the group, you haveta drinka cup of goat's blood, so should I do it, or not D> people? Cause, that is cruel, to the goats, but that is like a sacrifice to Do you eat meat? If you do, then what's the problem? Is it just an American taboo driven into your head that only some types of "cruelty" are acceptable, like eating dogs is oh so much more sinful than calf? If you ask me if you "should", I say no. Drinking blood carries a high risk for desiese, virus, and can sometimes lead to biogenetic complications if it reaches your blood stream (such as the red blood cells linking and clotting inside necessary veins and arteries). If you ask me my opinion on worshiping Satan, I think it's dum. I have spent years researching Christianity just to try and understand if it is repressive lies or if it is a necessary evil leading to salvation.. But what do you get by subscribing to Satanism? If your good you go to hell, if your bad you go to hell. It's a lose lose situation. If you want to look at it from a psychokinetic / wiccan point of view: Satan will use and destroy you. You will become his tool, no matter how in control you think you are. Summary: don't fuck with deamons stronger than you. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: Badlands Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sat Jan 04 15:46:39 CST 1997 Message number: 66 Reply to message number: 62 B> What do they* know about Satanism? Sacrifice isn't part of it. i happen to know a lot more then the average 15 year old would... I study paganism, AND IT AINT satanism, but satanism, I have learned quite well in my years from my brother.. and my own experiences, for in fact, I guess I might as well throw up a satanism base on my board.. Sacrifices, nothing to do with satan, I KNOW THAT! That just shows that you are honoring your god/s and shit, it is a respectful thing to do depending on what culture you are in or go by.. I never said that they were satanic, I just said that is cruel, but I'd still do it to respect my gods ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: Froggy Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sat Jan 04 15:50:17 CST 1997 Message number: 67 Reply to message number: 63 F> Sometimes a name is the only difference. Which has more F> characteristics like Odin, the Judeo/Christian God, or satan? Lets discuss this topic on my board, cause it is getting kinda weird here =) But yeah, who does have more charecteristics? Who knows, we all believe that some gods are really there, like one you may follow, "GOD" all man creator and such, but who knows, all man has created EVERY god there has been, for infact, hey, before even this big "GOD" was into the theory of gods, the norse had gods before that... so, if "GOD" created man, then why would there be more gods when man was created, and this one "GOD" not exist at the moment? He did, but in different names and such as different religions spoke of em. I hope you can understand this, cause I have been in the Fido echo, Magick, all day replying to all the 100+ posts.. and it is getting quite tiring. =) bb! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: Froggy Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sat Jan 04 15:51:26 CST 1997 Message number: 68 Reply to message number: 64 F> I am a Christian, but I do not have this opinion. I know New Moon F> Rising, laughing cup, and some of the members pretty well, too. That is NICE, VERY NICE, to know you do not have this opinion.. =) Thanxx froggy... croak for her!!! =) hehe.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sat Jan 04 15:58:52 CST 1997 Message number: 69 Reply to message number: 65 BT> Why, what's up? Nuthin no more, My board stays, as soon as the phone man does the wiring cause I would, but the line, well, they are of an older style and we don't got the wire =) BT> Never heard of it, where is it? Well, I am not QUITE sure, it is over in the boonies over here in inver grove heights or around the area here somewhere, I just moved to IGH... =) BT> Do you eat meat? If you do, then what's the problem? Is it just an Americ BT> taboo driven into your head that only some types of "cruelty" are acceptabl BT> like eating dogs is oh so much more sinful than calf? Yes, I eat meat, I like bloody, rare cooked meat for infact, just, if there are no vets checking for diseases, and such, forget it, cause I aint gonna take the chance of gettiing a bad case of ******** or *********** whatever those **** may be... so... BT> If you ask me my opinion on worshiping Satan, I think it's dum. I have spe Well, I don't really say it is dumb, I just say that it wouldn't be a great thing to do UNLESS you are an evil type of person.. That is their belief and I don't call no one's belief dumb =). BT> years researching Christianity just to try and understand if it is repress BT> lies or if it is a necessary evil leading to salvation.. But what do you g BT> by subscribing to Satanism? If your good you go to hell, if your bad you g Well, hell, no one knows what the hell, hell is exactly? It could actually be heaven and such, and heaven, could be what hell is supposofly described as =) I get a lot of weird things in my head... =) BT> to hell. It's a lose lose situation. If you want to look at it from a BT> psychokinetic / wiccan point of view: Satan will use and destroy you. You BT> will become his tool, no matter how in control you think you are. Summary: BT> don't fuck with deamons stronger than you. You may call upon the daemons, but be sure, you have a pentagram/blessed circle made out on the ground in which you stand.. BTW, a daemon is supposed to answer your questions, and if not, he/she/both/neither will be vanquished right before your eyes... I mean, if you stand in the COP (Circle of Protection), then they cannot devour you and such, otherwise, if not in COP, they can just chow on your flesh and bones.. =) even possibly devour you whole! ALSO: i am writing up a txt file on prophecies I have had... If you are interested, lemme know, and maybe you can help out. =) BB! deviou ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Devious Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sat Jan 04 16:24:17 CST 1997 Message number: 70 Reply to message number: 67 F> Sometimes a name is the only difference. Which has more F> characteristics like Odin, the Judeo/Christian God, or satan? D> D> gods before that... so, if "GOD" created man, then why would there be more D> gods when man was created, and this one "GOD" not exist at the moment? He D> did, but in different names and such as different religions spoke of em. D> That is my point exactly. A rose by any other name . . . I haven't heard any objections to discussing material like this here. If it were a religious right board, I wouldn't be here either. :( ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Devious Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sat Jan 04 17:25:53 CST 1997 Message number: 71 Reply to message number: 69 D> ALSO: i am writing up a txt file on prophecies I have had... If you are D> interested, lemme know, and maybe you can help out. =) I doubt I know enough to help in anyway, but I would certainly appreciate a copy. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Froggy Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sat Jan 04 17:26:42 CST 1997 Message number: 72 Reply to message number: 70 F> I haven't heard any objections to discussing material like this her It's quite encouraged actually, I'm not quite sure what Devious is getting at..? *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Devious Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sat Jan 04 18:24:22 CST 1997 Message number: 73 Reply to message number: 61 D> Nope, I do not plan to do this, I personally wanna RAID the satanist's D> church... Cause, I have had weird "VISIONS" in the past about the devil, an D> he has had some great pain inflicted on my thoughts of him, so I personally D> wanna destroy this group. Why not just let them stew in their own selfishness and hatred? How is doing evil to them any better than their doing evil to others? D> Magic(k) -Higher -Lesser and much more... Stop by NEW MOON RISING if ya can D> for ya spiritual people interested in Paganism and the occult.. Yep, probably been calling the local pagan boards since you were in grade school :-) Not like that's much of a feat or anything, it's just that the old Astral Realm and such were rare havens of intelligent discussion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Devious Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sat Jan 04 18:29:22 CST 1997 Message number: 74 Reply to message number: 69 BT> Never heard of it, where is it? D> D> Well, I am not QUITE sure, it is over in the boonies over here in inver grov D> heights or around the area here somewhere, I just moved to IGH... =) The reason I asked is, I'm pretty sure that Grey Cloud Island is the joint I just saw a presentation on the other week ... it has one entrance point, is mainly privately owned, and is just South of Newport/Woodbury on the Mississippi river. As for moving tio IGH, just stay out of the high school. Transfer to another district, you won't regret it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: Froggy Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sat Jan 04 19:06:00 CST 1997 Message number: 75 Reply to message number: 70 F> I haven't heard any objections to discussing material like this her F> If it were a religious right board, I wouldn't be here either. :( No no no.. Just it makes it easier for me to do the replying in like 3 page posts. =) I can only do that in offline mail, and here, I never d/l a packet ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sat Jan 04 19:06:41 CST 1997 Message number: 76 Reply to message number: 72 BT> It's quite encouraged actually, I'm not quite sure what Devious is getting BT> at..? Read the last post I just made to Froggy.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sat Jan 04 19:08:56 CST 1997 Message number: 77 Reply to message number: 74 DR> As for moving tio IGH, just stay out of the high school. Transfer to anoth DR> district, you won't regret it. You mean simley, cause I heard there, all the cheerleaders and shit are pregnant, now, my bro. says it si more of a leg spreader school =) And yes, I believe there is a factory which is taken up most of the land in Grey Cloud, and that land is privately owned indeed. =) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Devious Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sat Jan 04 19:17:08 CST 1997 Message number: 78 Reply to message number: 77 DR> As for moving tio IGH, just stay out of the high school. Transfer to anoth DR> district, you won't regret it. D> D> You mean simley, cause I heard there, all the cheerleaders and shit are D> pregnant, now, my bro. says it si more of a leg spreader school =) I don't know about the cheerleaders, just that the school is shit ... have never met a person who went there who liked the place. People are all in their little cliques, and the bad teachers outnumber the good ones ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sun Jan 05 03:51:05 CST 1997 Message number: 79 Reply to message number: 59 DR> One more aside - if they really are Satanists, don't be surprised to find DR> out they're using you ... for entertainment value, money, whatever. That's DR> basically the Satanist philosophy, as I understand it. And now, with the assistance of an extensive library of useless knowledge, the founding precepts of the Church of Satan as written by Anton S. LaVey: 1. Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence! 2. Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe dreams! 3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical self-deceit! 4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates! 5. Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek! 6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires! 7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, often worse, than those that walk on all fours, who, because of his divine spiritual and intellectual development has become the most vicious animal of all! 8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they lead to physical or mental gratification! 9. Satan has been the best friend the church has ever had, as he has kept it in business all these years! Taken from "Reality Isn't What It Used To Be", by Walter Truett Anderson (and yes, the exclamation points are from the original). Anderson points out two interesting points about this catalogue; first, that the list reads more like a "manifesto for yuppie go-for-it" than anything diabolically evil, and second, that the last point is very likely backwards, as "one of the things that is keeping Satanism alive is the obsessive interest that some conservative Christians have in it." Note: I first found this book at the Hennepin County Library near Ridgedale, and it's a great read. Check it out if you can. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Devious Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sun Jan 05 04:04:02 CST 1997 Message number: 80 Reply to message number: 60 D> So.. I usually follow like Odin (Norse God) and such... Really? Have you had trouble hiding from the police after practicing the Odinite ritual of sacrificing your enemies by hanging? And I wonder if your girlfriend knows that she will be expected to cast herself on your flaming pyre after your death as a show of fidelity to one who served the All-Father? I suspect your "following" is more on the level of lip-service than actual worship, and intended to tweak the noses of your parents or other authority figures. That's OK, but if you really want to be a believer, I suggest you choose a somewhat less bloodthirsty patron deity. May I suggest one? Tyche is mentioned in Hesiod's _Theogony_ as a daughter of Oceanus, a river nymph. However, she became one of the patron deities of the Mediterranean city of Syracuse; her statue dominated one of the city quarters. Her worship generally consisted of the collection of items of good fortune and her "sacrifices" consisted of unlucky events, such as spilt wine at a party. Not only is this worship relatively painless, but, should you find yourself in the midst of a party of rabid unbelievers and fear for your life, you can justify the rituals as more traditional superstition! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Devious Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sun Jan 05 08:45:55 CST 1997 Message number: 81 Reply to message number: 67 F> Sometimes a name is the only difference. Which has more F> characteristics like Odin, the Judeo/Christian God, or satan? D> But yeah, who does have more charecteristics? Isn't this akin to arguing about the characteristics of a purple unicorn, or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? There is a really powerful bias running through this entire discussion that assumes that God (or some cosmic theological power with another name) is the only explanation for the universe and the diversity which exists therein. There is a theory circulating among quantum physicists that an absolutely empty area is, in fact, not absolutely empty; there are actually "quantum potentialities" continually in flux. Since there is nothing in an empty space other than these quantum potentialities to define the passage of time, it can be concluded that at some point, a quantum shift in potentiality _must_ take place, and the magnitude of that shift is enough to create matter and energy out of what originally appeared to be nothing. If you're going to continue this conversation, I insist that you answer an atheist's objections. (And what exactly do UFO's have to do with witchcraft anyway?) "(The only witch I have ever gotten to know personally is PBS radio reporter Margot Adler, a likeable person who is among other things granddaughter of the great psychiatrist Alfred Adler and author of _Drawing Down the Moon_, one of the better known books on the subject [of witchcraft]. Her husband, a psychologist, tells me he thinks of witchcraft more as a form of therapy than a religion.)" -Walter Truett Anderson, "Reality Isn't What It Used To Be" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Devious Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sun Jan 05 08:48:10 CST 1997 Message number: 82 Reply to message number: 69 D> You may call upon the daemons, but be sure, you have a pentagram/blessed D> circle made out on the ground in which you stand.. BTW, a daemon is suppose D> to answer your questions, and if not, he/she/both/neither will be vanquished D> right before your eyes... I mean, if you stand in the COP (Circle of D> Protection), then they cannot devour you and such, otherwise, if not in COP, D> they can just chow on your flesh and bones.. =) This whole COP thing seems irresponsible to me. Shouldn't you summon the daemon so _it_ is within the COP, so that the only way it can get out is to return to "the nether realm" or wherever? Otherwise, what's to prevent it from roaming free about the world wreaking havoc? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sun Jan 05 10:04:46 CST 1997 Message number: 83 Reply to message number: 81 DT> There is a really powerful bias running through this entire discussion that DT> assumes that God (or some cosmic theological power with another name) is th DT> only explanation for the universe and the diversity which exists therein. DT> Sorry about tha bias. That is what I actually believe, scientific proof or not, and angels on a pinhead or not. Others are also welcom to their beliefs. DT> atheist's objections. (And what exactly do UFO's have to do with witchcraf DT> anyway?) DT> Well, they are often trying to materialize something. Who knowa WHAT may appear. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sun Jan 05 10:05:57 CST 1997 Message number: 84 Reply to message number: 82 DT> This whole COP thing seems irresponsible to me. Shouldn't you summon the DT> daemon so _it_ is within the COP, so that the only way it can get out is to DT> return to "the nether realm" or wherever? Otherwise, what's to prevent it DT> from roaming free about the world wreaking havoc? Most New-agers I know would agree with you. We are responsible for setting evil loose on others. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: REV. THORN To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sun Jan 05 13:02:13 CST 1997 Message number: 85 Reply to message number: 73 D> Magic(k) -Higher -Lesser and much more... Stop by NEW MOON RISING if ya can D> for ya spiritual people interested in Paganism and the occult.. hmm. I used to call there, until people started freaking out because I didn't believe in the validity of sex magick. but what can you do? aaron ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: REV. THORN To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sun Jan 05 13:03:12 CST 1997 Message number: 86 Reply to message number: 79 DT> And now, with the assistance of an extensive library of useless knowledge, DT> founding precepts of the Church of Satan as written by Anton S. LaVey: hmm. does anyone, just out of curiosity, know if lavey's dead yet? aaron ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Froggy Subject: Re: 666 Date: Sun Jan 05 19:31:11 CST 1997 Message number: 87 Reply to message number: 55 C> i got a kick out of reading that if you assign the ASCII numbers to bill C> gates' name it ends up as 666. C> gates is the antichrist! :) F> F> That is funny! Somehow, I believe it, too. * hehe. actually, i think he's turning into one of the most despised people of all time just because he happened to think of these things one beat ahead of the everyone else-- which are now turning him into a billionaire. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Rev. Thorn Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Sun Jan 05 19:37:28 CST 1997 Message number: 88 Reply to message number: 86 RT> hmm. does anyone, just out of curiosity, know if lavey's dead yet? RT> RT> aaron * hehe...if he is, i'm sure it won't cramp his style... -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Cosima Subject: Re: 666 Date: Mon Jan 06 03:58:11 CST 1997 Message number: 89 Reply to message number: 87 C> hehe. actually, i think he's turning into one of the most despised people of C> all time just because he happened to think of these things one beat ahead of C> the everyone else-- which are now turning him into a billionaire. True. Nothing pisses me off more than for someone else to screw over someone else before I have a chance to do it. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KRUSTY To: REV. THORN Subject: Re: Grey Cloud Date: Mon Jan 06 17:13:08 CST 1997 Message number: 90 Reply to message number: unavailable RT>DT> founding precepts of the Church of Satan as written by Anton S. LaVey: RT>hmm. does anyone, just out of curiosity, know if lavey's dead yet? Last I heard he was very sick, but not yet dead.. Ah, the joys of harassing #satanism and it's like on IRC... --- ž OLX 2.1 TD ž Second rule IS be nice to mommy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Froggy Subject: Re: 666 Date: Sun Jan 12 05:58:54 CST 1997 Message number: 91 Reply to message number: 89 C> hehe. actually, i think he's turning into one of the most despised people of C> all time just because he happened to think of these things one beat ahead of C> the everyone else-- which are now turning him into a billionaire. F> F> True. Nothing pisses me off more than for someone else to screw ov F> someone else before I have a chance to do it. :) * uh huh...somehow i get a vision of you wringing your hands and contemplating the destruction of the unjust, heheh....now that i mention it, works for me... -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: REV. THORN To: Cosima Subject: Re: 666 Date: Sun Jan 12 13:42:21 CST 1997 Message number: 92 Reply to message number: 87 C> i got a kick out of reading that if you assign the ASCII numbers to bill C> gates' name it ends up as 666. C> gates is the antichrist! :) heh. a week ago, out of a trendy-nerdiness, i made a shirt that reads: BILL GATES IS THE ANTICHRIST MICROSOFT IS THE SCARLET WOMAN (REV. 17) wow. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Rev. Thorn Subject: Re: 666 Date: Sun Jan 12 15:13:43 CST 1997 Message number: 93 Reply to message number: 92 RT> BILL GATES IS RT> THE ANTICHRIST Naw, he's just a minor demon. In truth, David Hasselhoff is the Antichrist. And I have proof. RT> http://www.indirect.com/www/warren/baywatch.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: REV. THORN To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: 666 Date: Mon Jan 13 15:02:40 CST 1997 Message number: 94 Reply to message number: 93 RT> BILL GATES IS RT> THE ANTICHRIST DR> DR> Naw, he's just a minor demon. In truth, David Hasselhoff is the Antichrist DR> And I have proof. but* read revelation 17. microsoft is the scarlet woman. she 'does' most everyone. hmmm. dos. hmm. aaron ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: COSIMA To: Rev. Thorn Subject: Re: 666 Date: Mon Jan 13 17:40:25 CST 1997 Message number: 95 Reply to message number: 92 RT> heh. a week ago, out of a trendy-nerdiness, i made a shirt that reads: RT> RT> BILL GATES IS RT> THE ANTICHRIST RT> RT> MICROSOFT IS THE RT> SCARLET WOMAN RT> (REV. 17) * was reading time mag's essay on the billmeister this evening. he makes 30 million dollars a day. am i pissed. -=c=- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEAD MAN To: Cosima Subject: re: bill gates Date: Thu Jan 16 09:55:13 CST 1997 Message number: 96 Reply to message number: 87 C> hehe. actually, i think he's turning into one of the most despised people of C> all time just because he happened to think of these things one beat ahead of C> the everyone else-- which are now turning him into a billionaire. First, bill did not create the original (sp) technology that made his inital forture, he stole it from his partner. Second, the reason most people hate him, myself included, is because his operating system does away with the basic advantage of computers, no spacial relations. You can do anything, from anywhere in the system, but in windows, you have to manuver the mouse to the right place, you have to know where you are at the begining to do anything. Sorry to the rest of you, I know this doesn't belong in spirituality, but my religon does advocate the hating of bill gates!? -Dead man ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: All Subject: book list Date: Sat Feb 08 09:52:31 CST 1997 Message number: 97 Reply to message number: unavailable I was looking for some source material on Zen Buddhism (or Zen in general) and while I understand that the subject matter itself doesn't lend itself to book form I would appreciate any books anyone could suggest on the topic. Oh yeah, it's for my World Religions class. On a similar thought, does anyone know where I might start to look for someone who would be willing to speak about Wicca, or non-christian mysticism? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: book list Date: Sat Feb 08 12:40:52 CST 1997 Message number: 98 Reply to message number: 97 S> I was looking for some source material on Zen Buddhism (or Zen in general) a S> while I understand that the subject matter itself doesn't lend itself to boo S> form I would appreciate any books anyone could suggest on the topic. Oh yea Check out *Zen and the art of Motorcycle Maintenance,* and Richard Bach's book, *Jonathan Livingston Seagull. Bach doesn't exactly discuss Zen. Just sort of presents it, tongue-in-cheek. I am a Christian mystic, but I know a few Wiccas. Don't forget the Anihinabe and other Aboriginal religions. Check *Black Elk Speaks.* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Froggy Subject: Re: book list Date: Sun Feb 09 07:58:20 CST 1997 Message number: 99 Reply to message number: 98 F> Check out *Zen and the art of Motorcycle Maintenance,* and Richard F> Bach's book, *Jonathan Livingston Seagull. Bach doesn't exactly discuss Zen Scary councidence - I just five minutes ago finished Illusions, my first book by Bach. I must say he's a very impressive writer.. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: book list Date: Sun Feb 09 10:04:07 CST 1997 Message number: 100 Reply to message number: 98 F> Check out *Zen and the art of Motorcycle Maintenance,* and Richard F> Bach's book, *Jonathan Livingston Seagull. Bach doesn't exactly discuss Zen F> Just sort of presents it, tongue-in-cheek. Thanks, I'll look for them... F> I am a Christian mystic, but I know a few Wiccas. Don't forget the F> Anihinabe and other Aboriginal religions. Check *Black Elk Speaks.* Already had a Christian mystic in to speak to my class. My teacher was hoping to have a Wicca speaker, and I told him I'd see if I could help him find one. That and some non-Christian mystics because they'd add a lot of depth to our discussions on mysticism in its various forms, another Christian mystic could do that too, but we were hoping for a different base religion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: book list Date: Sun Feb 09 12:22:15 CST 1997 Message number: 101 Reply to message number: 99 F> Bach's book, *Jonathan Livingston Seagull. Bach doesn't exactly discuss Zen BT> BT> Scary councidence - I just five minutes ago finished Illusions, my first bo BT> by Bach. I must say he's a very impressive writer.. Indication of the real Zen in him, he doesn't think so. Let me know what you think of Jonathan. Don't forget to read the intro. It is very important. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: book list Date: Sun Feb 09 12:24:33 CST 1997 Message number: 102 Reply to message number: 100 S> That and some non-Christian mystics because they'd add a lot of depth to our S> discussions on mysticism in its various forms, another Christian mystic S> could do that too, but we were hoping for a different base religion. If you like, I may be able to connect you with a couple of shamans. The ones I would find would be likely to be native American. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: book list Date: Thu Feb 13 09:28:00 CST 1997 Message number: 103 Reply to message number: 102 F> If you like, I may be able to connect you with a couple of shamans. F> The ones I would find would be likely to be native American. I personally, would be very interested in what they would have to say, I'll have to check with the teacher first to make sure, he'd be interested in shamans, but thank you, yes I'd appreciate that very much... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVE THE LUCKY To: Specter Subject: Re: book list Date: Sat Feb 15 11:08:49 CST 1997 Message number: 104 Reply to message number: 102 S> That and some non-Christian mystics because they'd add a lot of depth to our S> discussions on mysticism in its various forms, another Christian mystic S> could do that too, but we were hoping for a different base religion. May I recommend, "The Tao of Pooh"? Taoism is an Eastern mystical tradition (not really a religion, because it has no gods), and this book does a fabulous job of explaining the various Taoist principles by using the characters from A.A. Milne's "Winnie the Pooh" books. A sequel by the same writer (whose name I cannot remember), "The Te of Piglet", is also good, but not quite as good as the original. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Dave The Lucky Subject: Re: book list Date: Tue Feb 18 11:21:45 CST 1997 Message number: 105 Reply to message number: 104 DT> May I recommend, "The Tao of Pooh"? Taoism is an Eastern mystical traditio DT> (not really a religion, because it has no gods), and this book does a fabul DT> job of explaining the various Taoist principles by using the characters fro DT> A.A. Milne's "Winnie the Pooh" books. k, Just for the record, I am familiar with Tao, and the book though I haven't read it. Thanks... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Specter Subject: Re: book list Date: Tue Feb 18 14:04:52 CST 1997 Message number: 106 Reply to message number: 105 DT> A.A. Milne's "Winnie the Pooh" books. S> S> k, Just for the record, I am familiar with Tao, and the book though I haven S> read it. I thought that it was a neat analogy and my taoist friends say that it is pretty good. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Specter Subject: Re: book list Date: Tue Feb 18 14:09:34 CST 1997 Message number: 107 Reply to message number: 97 S> it's for my World Religions class. On a similar thought, does anyone know S> where I might start to look for someone who would be willing to speak about S> Wicca, or non-christian mysticism? I would say get StarHawk but she is a way busy woman. Really to find a speaker try Magus books in Dinkyday. Talk to Roger and ask if he knows anyone. Also if a real person is unattainable try a movie called the Burning Times. I cried eventhough it is a historical view. It has some of the misconseptions and it also has Starhawk. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Starfire Subject: Re: book list Date: Thu Feb 20 11:38:04 CST 1997 Message number: 108 Reply to message number: 107 S> I would say get StarHawk but she is a way busy woman. Really to find a S> speaker try Magus books in Dinkyday. Talk to Roger and ask if he knows S> anyone. Also if a real person is unattainable try a movie called the Burnin S> Times. I cried eventhough it is a historical view. It has some of the S> misconseptions and it also has Starhawk. :) k, thanks... I'll try the Magus thing... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Starfire Subject: Re: book list Date: Thu Feb 20 11:38:53 CST 1997 Message number: 109 Reply to message number: 106 S> I thought that it was a neat analogy and my taoist friends say that it is S> pretty good. Mmm. That's good, I've read a little of it, and it seemed fairly good... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: book list Date: Thu Feb 20 14:16:17 CST 1997 Message number: 110 Reply to message number: 108 S> k, thanks... I'll try the Magus thing... Magus is a good connection. So is Present Moment, and in a pinch. you might also try Evenstar. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: book list Date: Fri Feb 21 18:03:35 CST 1997 Message number: 111 Reply to message number: 110 F> Magus is a good connection. So is Present Moment, and in a pinch. y F> might also try Evenstar. Don't know the last two... explanation for the poor unfortunate uniformed... please? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: book list Date: Fri Feb 21 18:34:36 CST 1997 Message number: 112 Reply to message number: 111 F> Magus is a good connection. So is Present Moment, and in a pinch. y F> might also try Evenstar. S> S> Don't know the last two... explanation for the poor unfortunate S> uniformed... please? Present Moment is aNew Age book store on Grand Avenue. They sell books, Tarot decks, herbs, candles, etc. Evenstar is a tiny New Age store on University Avenue, St. Paul, near Randolph. They sell some of the same things, and also a lot of Native American drums, etc. Some of the owners of Evenstar are Wicca. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BADLANDS To: Starfire Subject: Re: book list Date: Sun Mar 23 21:42:18 CST 1997 Message number: 113 Reply to message number: 107 S> I would say get StarHawk but she is a way busy woman. Really to find a Starhawk came to speak last month, but the fee was 70-125 dollars...! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: All Subject: Protestant Bible Belivers Date: Wed Mar 26 08:49:38 CST 1997 Message number: 114 Reply to message number: unavailable NEW SECT A new christian sect, the Protestant Bible Believers Church, operating in Tokoroa, has caused some concern among mainstream christians. While the latter like to portray christianity with the image of Jesus meek and mild, loving everyone and ever ready to forgive the sinner - a kind of liberal social worker - the PBBs are blowing the whistle on the fraudulence of this image by yelling hellfire and damnation at the good folk of Tokoroa. The PBBs christianity is closer to the original article than the watered-down version of the mainstream churches. The bible does indeed teach eternal torment for unbelievers, for as Jesus states (reportedly): "He that believeth not shall be damned". (Mark 16:16). The PBBs, in common with other sects, are accused of dividing youthful converts from their families in order to effectively brainwash them. yet this anti-family strategy of the PBBs is more in line with biblical teachings than the mainstreamers who like to pose as champions of family values. Again, to quote Jesus: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26). As paul stated of the original apostles: "We are fools for Christ sake." Truly are the PBBs the modern-day apostles of christ. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: All Subject: Pope's exploits Date: Wed Mar 26 08:50:49 CST 1997 Message number: 115 Reply to message number: unavailable BUGGERING UP THE CATHOLIC CHURCH The conviction of Father Brown in March of sexually assaulting two altar boys over an 11 year period is likely to be the tip of the proverbial iceberg among the clergy in NZ. Both historically and IN OUR OWN TIME sexual misconduct has been rife in the church. historical background 1. Pope John XII (937-964), bi-sexual, died after being badly beaten by a jealous husband. 2. Pope Benedict IX (1020=1055) turned the Lateran Palace into the site of lavish homosexual orgies. 3. Pope Paul II (1417-1471) allegedly died of a heart attack while being sodomized by one of his favourite boys. 4. Pope Sixtus IV (1414-1484) took one of his nephews as his lover, making his a millionaire by plundering the papal treasury. 5. Pope Julius III (1487-1555) had relations with his bastard son and his adopted son, and made them cardinals. Appointed numerous other teenagers as cardinals and organised homosexual orgies for them. (Ref. Brimstone #1, 231 Kennedy Dr. Box 130, Malden MA 02148, USA). rife today Child sexual abuse is rife among the clergy today. Church affiliated pyschiatrists and attorneys in the USA have admitted that hundreds of priests have molested thousands of children during the last 10 years. A facility in New Mexico has counselled over 600 paedophiliac priests. La. attny. Ray Mouton has confirmed that damages paid in civil suits by aberrant priests have exceeded $50 million. It is estimated that within the next decade the church's liability could exceed $1 billion. (Ref. Dark Lily). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Protestant Bible Belivers Date: Wed Mar 26 10:43:27 CST 1997 Message number: 116 Reply to message number: 114 BT> A new christian sect, the Protestant Bible Believers Church, BT> operating in Tokoroa, has caused some concern among mainstream christians. BT> The PBBs christianity is closer to the original article than the BT> watered-down version of the mainstream churches. The bible does indeed BT> Again, to quote Jesus: "If any man come to me, and hate not his BT> father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, BT> and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26). I do not think that this reflects all of the mainstream churches at all. For example, using the verse from Luke that you have quoted, reading on, you hear Jesus explaining that a person must come knowing the cost and not being occupied with other things, or he cannot expect to complete the job. He gives examples of not being able to build a house if you have not completed the foundation. He also mentions a king considering going to war against a far more powerful king, and suggests sending a peace delegation instead. So, if you read on and try to understand the whole message, the message I get is that a person should attempt things only after he has considered them, planned them, and then must do his best to accomplish them. In the message, Jesus also spoke of excuses that people made for not doing things; one man had just bought a field and needed to look at it; another had just bought a yoke of oxen and needed to try them out. Another had just gotten married and was busy. Also, the Bible I am reading, the New International Version Study Bible, says that the expression to "hate his parents" is a lyrical hyperbole and simply means that you must love Jesus MORE than other things to be a Christian. I think that most Christian groups, although they do have warts, think this way, and do not think that Jesus is literally ordering people to HATE other people. In fact, this is one of the verses that the Catholic Church uses as reason for why priests and nuns must remain celibate and not marry. But they are not expected to actually hate their parents -- just to understand that they must do other things first. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Pope's exploits Date: Wed Mar 26 10:46:16 CST 1997 Message number: 117 Reply to message number: 115 BT> Child sexual abuse is rife among the clergy today. Church BT> affiliated pyschiatrists and attorneys in the USA have admitted that BT> hundreds of priests have molested thousands of children during the last 10 BT> years. A facility in New Mexico has counselled over 600 paedophiliac If I had time to look them up, I am also sure that I could find Bible verses that explain that the need for human companionship and sex is normal. That the Catholics insist on celibacy seems to encourage these sorts of things seems to be evidence of it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Froggy Subject: Re: Protestant Bible Belivers Date: Wed Mar 26 11:26:56 CST 1997 Message number: 118 Reply to message number: 116 F> all. For example, using the verse from Luke that you have quoted, reading o Just to clarify, I didn't write the article, I only posted it. Unless I have signed the bottom, it is usually something that struck my attention that I am passing along. F> gotten married and was busy. Also, the Bible I am reading, the New F> International Version Study Bible, says that the expression to "hate his I'll have to pick that up, it sounds interesting.. I'd imagine that a Bible like that would have to be taken with a large amount of unbiased resolution, certainly any of it's "added information" would be from a Christian point of view. F> parents" is a lyrical hyperbole and simply means that you must love Jesus F> MORE than other things to be a Christian. I think that most Christian F> groups, although they do have warts, think this way, and do not think that F> Jesus is literally ordering people to HATE other people. In fact, this is o Isn't it something of a distraction that Jesus choses to use the word "hate" if this is the case? *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: All Subject: 666 question Date: Wed Mar 26 11:31:39 CST 1997 Message number: 119 Reply to message number: unavailable In an earlier debate (I may be confused on the result, if so feel free to correct me) Froggy informed us that in Revelations the number 666 is not a representation for Satan, but for man representing himself as God falsly? Am I correct on this? My question is that if it represents this, couldn't this be synonymous for a representation of Satan since s/he is supposed to portray the rebeling from Jehovah; ie thinking that you are a god yourself? *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Protestant Bible Belivers Date: Wed Mar 26 14:22:59 CST 1997 Message number: 120 Reply to message number: 118 F> gotten married and was busy. Also, the Bible I am reading, the New F> International Version Study Bible, says that the expression to "hate his BT> I like it very much. It is called the NIV Bible, and I have the Study version, which includes a lot of maps, place names, definitions, etc. that help make it more understandable. BT> certainly any of it's "added information" would be from a Christian point o BT> view. BT> Not necessarily. As a matter of fact, most of the scholars who translated it are Christian Protestant. Some are Lutheran, some are Dutch Reform, etc. But they stay very close to the exact literal translation, show the text word, be it Hebrew, Greek, etc, and its translation. Then they let you interpret the phrase in question for yourself. F> parents" is a lyrical hyperbole and simply means that you must love Jesus F> MORE than other things to be a Christian. I think that most Christian BT> Isn't it something of a distraction that Jesus choses to use the word "hate BT> if this is the case? BT> Jesus often chose a word or action that would probably get him in trouble in the culture in which he lived. He healed many sick people and was finally crucified for healing on the Sabbath. If he had not been interested in making distractions, he could have laid low and literally obeyed the law, especially about sacred cows like the Sabbath. I think he was deliberately trying to get a rise out of people. For a good read, get a good modern English translation like the NIV and read the *Book of Matthew.* Pay attention to what he was REALLY doing. He ran the money changers out of the Temple; he ordered his disciples to eat wheat out of the field on the Sabbath, and when the Pharisees argued that this was against the law as ordered by God, he told them that it was OK because he WAS God. He defemded Mary Magdalene in front of an angry, judgmental crowd. He calmed the sea, walked on water, turned water into wine, and brought the dead back to life in a culture that was highly superstitious about magic, and especially spooked about spirits. He made statements like, in Matthew 23, "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. . . ." :) No wonder they crucified him. He was a cool cat who called things as he saw them -- and he was right. But in other verses, you do see the peaceful savior that you mentioned earlier. My estimation is that he was basically telling them to let the tradition and "law" go hang, and treat each other with love. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Wed Mar 26 14:48:28 CST 1997 Message number: 121 Reply to message number: 119 BT> In an earlier debate (I may be confused on the result, if so feel free to BT> correct me) Froggy informed us that in Revelations the number 666 is not a BT> representation for Satan, but for man representing himself as God falsly? BT> I correct on this? My question is that if it represents this, couldn't BT> this be synonymous for a representation of Satan since s/he is supposed to BT> portray the rebeling from Jehovah; ie thinking that you are a god yourself? BT> You have to understand the emphatic importance of numerology to the ancient Jews. They would not even write down an important date if it was deemed to be a bad omen, or could be interpreted as one. When treated to various numerological systems. that number 666 can be interpreted to mean many things. There are also many other numbers in the *Book of Revelations,* including the Seven seals, the Twelve Heads, etc. People have worked out what they believe these to mean, but they do not know for sure. Revelations is a mystery, and possibly always will be. Basically, Satan is described in other scriptures as being Lucifer, the most beautiful and most beloved of God's archangels. He fell, leaving God and saying that he was going to rule the earth. God agreed, and so involved all of us in the war of good VS evil. But Satan has never claimed that he *is* God. He has claimed that he is the ruler of the earth and is more powerful than God. Which brings us to the Gnostics. They were a sect that existed in both the Jewish and early Christian traditions. Along with a lot of other weird beliefs, they believed that the JHVH, or Yaweh that the Jews were worshipping was an interloper, or a false God. They worshipped someone else, and pointed to the many repetitions that JHVH is a jealous God, worship only Him. etc. as evidence that he was an interloper. Of course, THEIR God was the one true one. Where have I heard that before? After the death of Christ, there was a lot of infighting among Christians, especially between the Apostolics and the Gnostics. They murdered each other and destroyed their writings. Since the Gnostics were far outnumbered, they lost. Most of their writings were lost, and are much searched out by Bible scholars. Some scholars think that the *Book of Revelations* was one of their books, partly because they did tend to write in the highly metaphoric and smbolic way that Rev is written. They used numbers and verbal "pictures" to encode other meanings other than what you see directly. For example, in a Gnostic text, the "seven-horned beast" might mean the Roman Empire, which was seen as a beast and originated in a land with seven rivers. Of course, if Revelations was a Gnostic text, this also means that either John was a Gnostic, or that he did not write Revelations. Both have been considered true by some scholars. Hmmm. For a hair-raising read, get a copy of the *Gospel of Thomas.* It is the rage now, and some scholars consider it to be: 1. The only Gospel that was actually written by the disciple himself, and 2. a Gnostic text, because Thomas was a Gnostic. Hmmmm, Hmmmm. Remember that he was also a "doubter." Could it be that one of the things he doubted was the identity of JHVH? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Protestant Bible Belivers Date: Wed Mar 26 17:44:15 CST 1997 Message number: 122 Reply to message number: 114 Please please please say you are being sarcastic. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Protestant Bible Belivers Date: Wed Mar 26 17:50:18 CST 1997 Message number: 123 Reply to message number: 118 BT> Isn't it something of a distraction that Jesus choses to use the word "hate BT> if this is the case? Don't know what Froggy's reaction is, but bare in mind that this was a translation of an intendend recording, and a recording of a chosen message. F> MORE than other things to be a Christian. I think that most Christian F> groups, although they do have warts, think this way, and do not think that F> Jesus is literally ordering people to HATE other people. In fact, this is o I agree, I first heard about those passages from my minister about 11-12 years ago and was dumbfounded until he gave that explanation, apparantly to love less is one defintion given in a Dictionary, and with the amount Jesus dwells on Love for everyone, it seems unlikely that he would have truly advised Hate for everyone as close as family. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Wed Mar 26 18:08:04 CST 1997 Message number: 124 Reply to message number: 121 F> Thomas was a Gnostic. Hmmmm, Hmmmm. Remember that he was also a "doubter." An interesting thought, a "doubter" but a Gnostic, a Gnostic being a knower. A verbal play that I find interesting, anyway Good information, I'd heard most of that but there was some I was missing. Forgive me for not quoting, but that was quite the long message. About the Satan thing. One notices differences between the various appearances of Satan and Lucifer and company. They develop as the stories go, Satan is at first nothing but a beloved God-serving angel. Then becomes the enemy, then around the New Testament finally becomes a solid single enemy rather than a collection of demonic types. My father points out that the development of Satan into a demon coincides with the return of the Jews from one of the nations that captured them, a land that had an extensive belief in demons, and that they may have picked up the interest in demons from there. I also note that the development of Hell is connected to the development of an interest in demons, early on some believed that after death there was simply heaven or death, one joined God or the seperation from God lead to spiritual death. This is relevant to my idea of death, could a God who is all loving truly let his children die horrible deaths in hell no matter how badly they have acted? I've always doubted that, rather perhaps the idea of God letting those who are seperated from him if they must be seperate simply die off seems more natural to an all-loving God. Also to note that I've read somewhere that Satan could be considered the effect of a need to have an opposing element to God, a need for a struggle between Good and Evil, an incontent of humans with simply having one side, God. That Satan could be a development of a need for God to have an opponent because it is more epic and more natural to a mind that searches for opponents to everything. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Badlands Subject: Re: book list Date: Wed Mar 26 19:28:51 CST 1997 Message number: 125 Reply to message number: 113 B> Starhawk came to speak last month, but the fee was 70-125 dollars...! I know. I personally could not afford that pretty bit of change. I heard that it was very interesting though. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Wed Mar 26 23:19:06 CST 1997 Message number: 126 Reply to message number: 124 S> An interesting thought, a "doubter" but a Gnostic, a Gnostic being a knower. S> A verbal play that I find interesting, anyway S> Yes, but even though the word "gnosis" means knowing, it is more in the meaning of "inward searching," rather than the apostolics idea of letting big daddy tell you everything. S> nothing but a beloved God-serving angel. Then becomes the enemy, then aroun S> the New Testament finally becomes a solid single enemy rather than a S> die off seems more natural to an all-loving God. Also to note that I've rea S> somewhere that Satan could be considered the effect of a need to have an S> opposing element to God, a need for a struggle between Good and Evil, an S> incontent of humans with simply having one side, God. That Satan could be Yes. I think that one of the things about Satan that scares people the most is that he has separated from God and is apparently doing well despite it, even to the point of challenging God. S> a development of a need for God to have an opponent because it is more epic S> and more natural to a mind that searches for opponents to everything. Never mind that the entity called Satan probably does not exist at all, but is the creation of the active imaginations of humans. S> badly they have acted? I've always doubted that, rather perhaps the idea of S> God letting those who are seperated from him if they must be seperate simply S> die off seems more natural to an all-loving God. Also to note that I've rea I guess it depends on your personal orientation. Personally, I believe that to be condemned to an eternal existence separated from God is the most horrible hell there could be, I'll take fire and brimstone. S> collection of demonic types. My father points out that the development of S> Satan into a demon coincides with the return of the Jews from one of the S> nations that captured them, a land that had an extensive belief in demons, a S> that they may have picked up the interest in demons from there. I also note S> that the development of Hell is connected to the development of an interest I don't think so. As far as I have seen, ancient Jews were always very mindful of demons, even pre-Abraham. But, while in captivity in Egypt, they lost the religious roots of Abraham and some of them adopted elements of the Egyptian religions, Baal worship, Moloch worship, and others. So, in Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, there is much attention paid to removing the Jews from these religious leanings by forbidding worship of idols and false gods. Even back to primitive times, humans have always, and still are, aware of the presence of demons. The question is what to do about them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Froggy Subject: California suicides Date: Thu Mar 27 03:56:30 CST 1997 Message number: 127 Reply to message number: 121 F> You have to understand the emphatic importance of numerology to the F> ancient Jews. They would not even write down an important date if it was F> Which brings us to the Gnostics. They were a sect that existed in F> both the Jewish and early Christian traditions. Along with a lot of other F> weird beliefs, they believed that the JHVH, or Yaweh that the Jews were F> worshipping was an interloper, or a false God. They worshipped someone else F> and pointed to the many repetitions that JHVH is a jealous God, worship only F> Him. etc. as evidence that he was an interloper. Of course, THEIR God was t F> one true one. Where have I heard that before? After the death of Christ, Have you been following the news about those 39 sect-based suicides in California over the weekend? From what I have been hearing, they may also have some of this "other god" stuff in the mix. In particular, they seemed to think that they were to leave their "earthly vehicles" and join another physical level when the Hale-Bopp comet nears the earth. Their god looks strangely UFO enthusiasts call a "grey." The bodies were long dead and decomposing when they were found, and the police and authorities do not seem to know when they died. The full moon was last Sunday. Any bets? I have also heard in other quarters that some people believe that the REAL creator-God of the OT was an alien, or aliens, and this is why the JHVH guy is a fraud. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Froggy Subject: Re: Protestant Bible Belivers Date: Thu Mar 27 14:55:42 CST 1997 Message number: 128 Reply to message number: 120 F> was basically telling them to let the tradition and "law" go hang, and treat F> each other with love. I agree with most of statements, but it is still ironic that he chooses to tell people that they may hate they're parents to love. Not to mention the fact that hating your parents violates an old testament commandment, and definitly the "secondary" commandment of loving everybody.. You'd think that with Jesus supposedly being god and all that he could word his statements a little bit better to ... say ... prevent holy wars? Just a wee bit of clarification on his part once in awhile would of made things nice. But then I'm sure it's all part of the big plan, eh? *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Froggy Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Thu Mar 27 15:02:22 CST 1997 Message number: 129 Reply to message number: 121 F> scholars think that the *Book of Revelations* was one of their books, partly Who was supposedly the writer of Revelations again? If this is going to be another one of Ezekiel's bad trips I'm not even going to bother making footnotes when I get to reading it. ;) F> You have to understand the emphatic importance of numerology to the F> ancient Jews. They would not even write down an important date if it was F> deemed to be a bad omen, or could be interpreted as one. When treated to I don't mind numerology because it is something that you can study, reference, and possibly find an origional meaning for. But for the majority of the Bible, especially the gospels, where any "questionable" matter may come up it is deemed as being not to be read in the literal sense. This is a very frustrating way to teach your beliefs, and in the end no matter what is written you are right in some form. You could read the newspaper in this way as well and get whatever you wanted out of it... F> Thomas was a Gnostic. Hmmmm, Hmmmm. Remember that he was also a "doubter." F> Could it be that one of the things he doubted was the identity of JHVH? Spiffville, need to pick up a copy of that.. *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: Protestant Bible Belivers Date: Thu Mar 27 21:09:44 CST 1997 Message number: 130 Reply to message number: 128 BT> I agree with most of statements, but it is still ironic that he chooses to BT> tell people that they may hate they're parents to love. Not to mention the BT> fact that hating your parents violates an old testament commandment, and BT> You'd think that with Jesus supposedly being god and all that he could word BT> his statements a little bit better to ... say ... prevent holy wars? Just BT> wee bit of clarification on his part once in awhile would of made things ni BT> But then I'm sure it's all part of the big plan, eh? BT> I think it was clarified. But Jesus did not write it. He spoke everything he said in Aramaic. The earliest known New Testament writings were written by other people in other languages, Hebrew and Greek, and at least 90 years after his death. So at the best, his words as written depend on verbal legend, human memories, and translational differences. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Thu Mar 27 21:17:59 CST 1997 Message number: 131 Reply to message number: 129 BT> Who was supposedly the writer of Revelations again? If this is going to be BT> another one of Ezekiel's bad trips I'm not even going to bother making BT> footnotes when I get to reading it. ;) BT> St. John. Most people seem to firmly believe that he wrote it, and the Book itself says he wrote it, but I am not so sure. Compare the writing style of the *Book of Revelations,* and the other books written by John. Remember John I?, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . ." I am not convinced that it is the same writer. BT> I don't mind numerology because it is something that you can study, referen BT> and possibly find an origional meaning for. But for the majority of the BT> Bible, especially the gospels, where any "questionable" matter may come up BT> is deemed as being not to be read in the literal sense. This is a very There is no such thing as the literal sense. Translational and trans-cultural differences are too great. Even the language, Hebrew, is difficult to get an exact translation because it has no vowels, so occasionally it is difficult to even understand what WORD is meant, let alone which hidden meaning of the word. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Fri Mar 28 16:26:21 CST 1997 Message number: 132 Reply to message number: 126 S> An interesting thought, a "doubter" but a Gnostic, a Gnostic being a knower. S> A verbal play that I find interesting, anyway S> F> Yes, but even though the word "gnosis" means knowing, it is more in F> the meaning of "inward searching," rather than the apostolics idea of lettin F> big daddy tell you everything. Yes, I know. I've just always been amused by plays on words other than puns, I'm not fond of puns. I'm easy to amuse. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Fri Mar 28 16:39:12 CST 1997 Message number: 133 Reply to message number: 126 Sorry, I'm just losing my head tonight, second time I've forgotten to include the rest of reply in the first message. F> Yes. I think that one of the things about Satan that scares people F> the most is that he has separated from God and is apparently doing well F> despite it, even to the point of challenging God. That's quite possible. I'd never thought of it like that, but I can see what you're getting at. F> Never mind that the entity called Satan probably does not exist at F> all, but is the creation of the active imaginations of humans. Yes, never mind that. I'm assuming you're saying you doubt Satan exists, and I'd reply that I also am doubting of Satan's existence. I'd rather assume that if God had a pure nemesis like Satan, God would have brushed it away with a thought by now rather than let something so purely evil interfere with human lives. F> I guess it depends on your personal orientation. Personally, I F> believe that to be condemned to an eternal existence separated from God is t F> most horrible hell there could be, I'll take fire and brimstone. That's a little different than what I was thinking of. A fire and brimstone I'd assume would be eternal seperation from God, though if it wasn't, more like Purgatory rather I'd agree that that would be far superior. My inference of part of the seperation from God bit, was that the death was eternal, a fading away, and end to existence in it's entirety, no pain, no pleasure, no anything, which I consider more comforting than the possibility of hell for practically any sin. F> I don't think so. As far as I have seen, ancient Jews were always F> very mindful of demons, even pre-Abraham. But, while in captivity in Egypt, F> they lost the religious roots of Abraham and some of them adopted elements o F> the Egyptian religions, Baal worship, Moloch worship, and others. So, in F> Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, there is much attention paid to removing F> the Jews from these religious leanings by forbidding worship of idols and F> false gods. Even back to primitive times, humans have always, and still are Mmm. I'm not sure these are mutually exclusive... I'm thinking my father was speaking of a post-Egyptian change, more around the time of Babylon. Of course you are more knowledgable on the OT and its history than I am, so I can't really argue the point. I do recognize the changes you pointed out in pre-Egypt, Egypt, and post Egyptian Jewish religion. But from what I've gleaned there is a movement in the Bible from Satan as an angel to Satan as a demon, well after any Egyptian influence. F> false gods. Even back to primitive times, humans have always, and still are F> aware of the presence of demons. The question is what to do about them. ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Fri Mar 28 17:21:34 CST 1997 Message number: 134 Reply to message number: 133 F> Never mind that the entity called Satan probably does not exist at F> all, but is the creation of the active imaginations of humans. S> S> Yes, never mind that. I'm assuming you're saying you doubt Satan exists, an S> I'd reply that I also am doubting of Satan's existence. I'd rather assume I do doubt it. I do not doubt the existence of evil, and of smaller evil entities like demons, but I do not believe that Satan exists as a separate being. S> that if God had a pure nemesis like Satan, God would have brushed it away wi S> a thought by now rather than let something so purely evil interfere with hum S> lives. There is a lot of pure evil interfering with our lives. I think it has more to do with limiting evil so that we can manage it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Sat Mar 29 11:41:42 CST 1997 Message number: 135 Reply to message number: 134 F> I do doubt it. I do not doubt the existence of evil, and of smalle F> evil entities like demons, but I do not believe that Satan exists as a F> separate being. F> There is a lot of pure evil interfering with our lives. I think it F> has more to do with limiting evil so that we can manage it. I agree. I doubt Satan, but the existence of evil I find to be evident in society just by looking superficially. Limiting evil is about all one can do. It would be impossible for anyone to totally eliminate it, and it's limit evil, join it, or do nothing for options. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Specter Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Sat Mar 29 19:09:08 CST 1997 Message number: 136 Reply to message number: 135 S> in society just by looking superficially. Limiting evil is about all one S> can do. It would be impossible for anyone to totally eliminate it, and it' S> limit evil, join it, or do nothing for options. I have had this delema for a long while and I was wondering if anyone had a take on it. My basic belief in the 'harm none' thing came so naturally to me. It's just common sense in many ways. I'm not saying that I am anywhere near perfect but some people are so neglegent in noticing that their actions hurt so many others. So why is there so much interpersonal confrontation? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Starfire Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Mon Mar 31 03:07:14 CST 1997 Message number: 137 Reply to message number: 136 S> I have had this delema for a long while and I was wondering if anyone had a S> take on it. My basic belief in the 'harm none' thing came so naturally to m S> It's just common sense in many ways. I'm not saying that I am anywhere near S> perfect but some people are so neglegent in noticing that their actions hurt S> so many others. So why is there so much interpersonal confrontation? I don't think the 'harm none' idea comes as naturally for most people. Many people go about life looking at only their own side of any situation without paying any attention to the effect of their actions. And anyone who doesn't check how their actions affect others will soon offend someone. Because there are so few people who really pay attention to others, there is a lot of room for conflict to develop. Now as for the cause of people not checking the effects of their actions I can only surmise that most people don't want to go to the effort. It takes effort (however small) and paying attention to avoid harming others, I think many people simply don't want to go the effort, and others simply don't care. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Specter Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Fri Apr 04 18:14:10 CST 1997 Message number: 138 Reply to message number: 137 S> I don't think the 'harm none' idea comes as naturally for most people. Many I was talking about this to a couple of random people in my classes and they said that they never thought about having a philosophy such as that. Grrr. I would hope that people would at least think about it. S> Now as for the cause of people not checking the effects of their actions I I understand apathy but there is more than that. There is the awareness that what one is doing will harm someone and doing it any way. This outright idiocrasy is what appals me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Starfire Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Sat Apr 05 06:44:41 CST 1997 Message number: 139 Reply to message number: 138 S> I was talking about this to a couple of random people in my classes and they S> said that they never thought about having a philosophy such as that. Grrr. S> would hope that people would at least think about it. Yes. To most people it apparently never occurs that working under a 'harm none' could help alleviate many of the problems one encounters in one's daily activity, as well as helping to create a more peaceful world and just generally promoting that which is Good. Sad reflection on the human condition that people do this, or rather don't do this. S> I understand apathy but there is more than that. There is the awareness tha S> what one is doing will harm someone and doing it any way. This outright S> idiocrasy is what appals me. That is true... Many people don't seem to care that they are harming someone else. I've personally never understood willfully harming someone, because I was raised to think that doing so was a very bad thing. So somewhat like other people never thought about a 'harm none' philosophy, I never thought about a 'harm to your heart's desire' philosophy. And yes, it is appaling that some people could be so stupid as to willfully harm someone else. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Specter Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Sat Apr 05 09:04:11 CST 1997 Message number: 140 Reply to message number: 139 S> else. I've personally never understood willfully harming someone, because I S> was raised to think that doing so was a very bad thing. So somewhat like S> other people never thought about a 'harm none' philosophy, I never thought S> Yes. To most people it apparently never occurs that working under a 'harm S> none' could help alleviate many of the problems one encounters in one's dail S> activity, as well as helping to create a more peaceful world and just S> generally promoting that which is Good. S> I think that a lot depends on how one was raised. I also was raised with this orientation, but have observed that since about 1965, there has been a lot going the other way. Most notably, since 1980, children have been raised to put themselves first and not consider other people. S> Sad reflection on the human condition that people do this, or rather don't d S> this. S> We need to be more careful what we ask for, eh? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Froggy Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Sat Apr 05 17:45:21 CST 1997 Message number: 141 Reply to message number: 140 F> a lot going the other way. Most notably, since 1980, children have been F> raised to put themselves first and not consider other people. These people are my class mates. I was born in '79 and even though I grew up quite on my own, I picked up that selfishness is an unappealing character trait. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FROGGY To: Starfire Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Sat Apr 05 22:13:10 CST 1997 Message number: 142 Reply to message number: 141 F> a lot going the other way. Most notably, since 1980, children have been F> raised to put themselves first and not consider other people. S> S> These people are my class mates. I was born in '79 and even though I grew u S> quite on my own, I picked up that selfishness is an unappealing character S> trait. Maybe that is the key. You were independent and able to make your own observations. My observation has been that many parents of children this age have been out to grab everything they could get for themselves and have spoiled their children rotten and taugh them to also be selfish and not care about other people. I think it is unappealing too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Froggy Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Sun Apr 06 07:26:08 CDT 1997 Message number: 143 Reply to message number: 140 F> I think that a lot depends on how one was raised. I also was raise F> with this orientation, but have observed that since about 1965, there has be F> a lot going the other way. Most notably, since 1980, children have been F> raised to put themselves first and not consider other people. I think you're right, being of that general age group I see that in many of my peers. S> Sad reflection on the human condition that people do this, or rather don't d S> this. S> F> We need to be more careful what we ask for, eh? Yes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: STARFIRE To: Specter Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Tue Apr 08 16:39:12 CDT 1997 Message number: 144 Reply to message number: 143 S> I think you're right, being of that general age group I see that in many o S> my peers. Why is it that we can notice this undesirable trait in our peers but they cannot notice it in themselves? (Waybe you have to be on the outside to notice what really goes on) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SPECTER To: Starfire Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Thu Apr 10 15:59:00 CDT 1997 Message number: 145 Reply to message number: 144 S> Why is it that we can notice this undesirable trait in our peers but they S> cannot notice it in themselves? (Waybe you have to be on the outside to S> notice what really goes on) I think you're right. I think to have the recognition of the possibility of something different there has to be some introspection, and I think many people are missing that now, or one has to be on the outside looking in. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: Starfire Subject: Re: book list Date: Sun Apr 13 14:01:56 CDT 1997 Message number: 146 Reply to message number: 107 S> I would say get StarHawk but she is a way busy woman. Really to find a Starhawk is a good writer.. Good books. Just finally got done with the Spiral Dance and now am reading Wicca: The Old Religion in the New Millienium. By Vivianne Crowley. Not related to Aliester people... hehe. Well, anyone read the ones I just stated? good and interesting.. I am wiccan by the way. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Sun Apr 13 14:04:51 CDT 1997 Message number: 147 Reply to message number: 119 666 is not the sign of satan, which well, people were lead to believe. It is the number of the beast. At least the group, Iron Maiden got it right on one of their songs =). hehe. But the beast is th eone who roams the abyss in search of living and dead. Just incase the living had passed the 9 headed dog, cerebus, or dead trying to leave. Well, thought I'd throw in my two cents of my theory that I have been taught though, it is the goddess and the horned one for me, no devil, GOD, or no other.. devious ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: Froggy Subject: Re: California suicides Date: Sun Apr 13 14:07:20 CDT 1997 Message number: 148 Reply to message number: 127 F> strangely UFO enthusiasts call a "grey." The bodies were long dead and grey are those ones people are most abducted by.. And there are 3 known others that I know of, but don't speak of em, and Big Teebo, I am gonna, wait, do you ever meet with invisi? Cause about that a51 letter I got, I could give him a copy to give to you, cause that one in mail fuct. which is rare =(.. Well, email me bout it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: Starfire Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Sun Apr 13 14:11:18 CDT 1997 Message number: 149 Reply to message number: 136 S> take on it. My basic belief in the 'harm none' thing came so naturally to m if you are refferiing to wicca, if it harms none, do what thou will... Same thing came with me, but as the years passed I got desperately in need to give pain. But in 7th and 8th grade, it happened. I am in 9th as of right now, and well, hey, one note to all, PSG meeting (Pagan Study Guide) If anyone of you wish for information, I can announce subject and date by friday, so let me know. It is every other sunday at some kitcen, kalis kitchen I believe. Well, good people, makers of PaganInk, and others attend... And look for a pagan web page I am putting up thanx to Magus (Joseph Norman) of Magus Online =).. Gee, my attitude seems like it had changed since last time I was on here posting a lot =) Right guyz and galz? hehe Blessed Be! Devious ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: DEVIOUS Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Mon Apr 21 17:03:14 CDT 1997 Message number: 150 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Devious : De> take on it. My basic belief in the 'harm none' thing came so naturally t De> other sunday at some kitcen, kalis kitchen I believe. De> Well, good people, makers of PaganInk, and others attend... And look De> for a pagan web page I am putting up thanx to Magus (Joseph Norman) of De> Magus Online =).. So what's up with this net thing here on Dissent, is it ever going to be working ...? ... The worst thing about censorship is . ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BIG TEEBO To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Wed Apr 23 16:18:23 CDT 1997 Message number: 151 Reply to message number: 150 DR> So what's up with this net thing here on Dissent, is it ever going to DR> be working ...? The person that was running the Pagan Net dealy promised - after much long discussion - to not require name / address / etc. (privacy's a big deal to me and it should be to all of you too) Then he went and threw it in there _anyways_, saying "oh it's not a big deal" after all of the time I spent explaining it to him. So, as one not to be pushed around, I told him to piss off. Then a few weeks later his board crashed or something and hasn't been heard from since, oh well. ;) *teebo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Big Teebo Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Thu Apr 24 20:39:38 CDT 1997 Message number: 152 Reply to message number: 151 BT> (privacy is a big deal to me and it should be to all of you too) But apparently, authoritarianism is right up your alley. *I* see how it goes! BT> explaining it to him. So, as one not to be pushed around, I told him to pi BT> off. Then a few weeks later his board crashed or something and hasn't been BT> heard from since, oh well. ;) So are you looking to hook up with a local net at all? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: Daedalus Rising Subject: Re: 666 question Date: Fri Apr 25 08:54:56 CDT 1997 Message number: 153 Reply to message number: 150 DR> So what's up with this net thing here on Dissent, is it ever going to DR> be working ...? Yeah, I wanna talk with big t first, if he is ever round, That is the only problem. Plus, well, We need a name for it as well. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: ALL Subject: Amendment Date: Thu May 01 12:48:47 CDT 1997 Message number: 154 Reply to message number: unavailable ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Rep. Istook (R, Oklahoma) has authored the following proposed amendment to the US Constitution: "To secure the people's right to acknowledge God: The right to pray or acknowledge religious belief, heritage or tradition on public property, including public schools, shall not be infringed. The government shall not compel joining in prayer, initiate or compose school prayers, discriminate against or deny a benefit on account of religion." What effect could this amendment have on the religious freedoms currently enjoyed by all Americans? What specifics words pose dangers to all freedom? Abuses? Good things to come from it? ... Every morning is the dawn of a new error... ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Sandman Subject: Re: Amendment Date: Thu May 01 17:36:24 CDT 1997 Message number: 155 Reply to message number: 154 S> "To secure the people's right to acknowledge God: The right to pray S> or acknowledge religious belief, heritage or tradition on public S> property, including public schools, shall not be infringed. The S> government shall not compel joining in prayer, initiate or compose S> school prayers, discriminate against or deny a benefit on account S> of religion." What's a religion - would this change the definition of a religion? If I decide that I'm the son of Baal and have a right to flay kittens on the courtyard lawn, do I have the right to do so under this constitutional amendment? The religious right are just such damned whiners, I get really sick of this constant martyr syndrome, as if Christians were somehow the most discriminated-against group in the country. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: ALL Subject: Gone too damned far!!!!!! Date: Fri May 02 17:13:33 CDT 1997 Message number: 156 Reply to message number: unavailable Ä Area: Thiest Watch ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Msg#: 45 Date: 04-22-97 11:55 From: David Bloomberg Read: Yes Replied: No To: All Mark: Subj: Praying To Death ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ From today's Chicago Tribune: COUPLE'S FAITH IN PRAYER AN ISSUE IN DEATH Associated Press Dateline: HOLLIDAYSBURG, Pa. A couple who believed that prayer can heal should not be prosecuted in the death of their teenage daughter because they did not intend for her to die, their attorney said Monday. Lorie and Dennis Nixon of Altoona went to trial on involuntary manslaughter charges in the death of 16-year-old Shannon Nixon last year. She died of a heart attack brought on by untreated diabetes. The couple, who belong to the Faith Tabernacle Church, also lost a son to illness several years earlier. "This case is not about the prosecution of criminals. This case is about the persecution of well-intended, well-meaning parents," defense attorney Steven Passarello told jurors in Blair County Court. District Atty. William Haberstroh said doctors will testify this week that "there is absolutely no reason why this child should have died." State law requires parents to protect children who are younger than 18, he said. He pointed out that Shannon had been to a doctor as a requirement for her drivers' license and had seen a dentist. Shannon had complained to her parents for several days that she wasn't feeling well, she vomited repeatedly and was constantly thirsty, the parents told police at the time. She asked for a healing ceremony from the church rather than a doctor. She was unconscious for several hours before she died, with a minister and her parents praying over her. Five years earlier, the couple's 8-year-old son, Clayton, died of an inner-ear infection. That time, they pleaded no contest and were sentenced to probation. They also were ordered to perform community service in a hospital at the request of Haberstroh, who wanted them to see the positive effects of medicine. But no hospital would accept them as volunteers, so they performed their community service elsewhere, he said. The couple have eight surviving children and Mrs. Nixon, 44, is pregnant again. Haberstroh has said he would not seek more than a year in prison if they are convicted. The Nixons are the latest members of the Faith Tabernacle to go up against the state in the treatable deaths of their children. The Nixons are clinging to the belief that prayer rather than medical treatment can heal. Two other members of the Philadelphia-based sect have been convicted, in 1983 and 1992, of involuntary manslaughter for allowing their toddlers to die. In 1991 in suburban Philadelphia, five more children died during a measles outbreak, and in the 1970s, a Faith Tabernacle couple in suburban Philadelphia lost five children before age 2 to untreated cystic fibrosis. In church Sunday, pastor Charles Nixon, Dennis Nixon's father, told the biblical tale of David and Goliath in his sermon as his daughter-in-law listened. Mrs. Nixon sat calmly, flanked by female relatives as her father-in-law spoke. The biblical David "left the battle in the hands of the Lord, so he didn't need to worry about winning it," the pastor told the 80 worshipers. Called "baby killers" by some, the Faith Tabernacle refuses to elaborate beyond pamphlets in the church foyer about its beliefs. -!- msgedsq 2.0.5 ! Origin: Let the love of truth shine clear (1:2430/2112) ... Experiencing tagline difficulties, please stand by. ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: DAEDALUS RISING Subject: Re: Amendment Date: Thu May 08 20:07:53 CDT 1997 Message number: 157 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Daedalus Rising to Sandman <=- S> "To secure the people's right to acknowledge God: The right to pray S> or acknowledge religious belief, heritage or tradition on public S> property, including public schools, shall not be infringed. The S> government shall not compel joining in prayer, initiate or compose S> school prayers, discriminate against or deny a benefit on account S> of religion." DR> What's a religion - would this change the definition of a religion? DR> If I decide that I'm the son of Baal and have a right to flay kittens DR> on the courtyard lawn, do I have the right to do so under this DR> constitutional amendment? Supreme Court Justice Sandman would read this amendment and conclude that Baal character is not God. A god, but not God. This animal sacrifice is not part of are nations heritage or tradition. Now you could seek protection under the 1st Amendment to have your religious practices, but under this amendment only mono-theists who have claims of heritage or tradition will have these "Super Rights" to acknowledge/promote their God. DR> The religious right are just such damned whiners, I get really sick DR> of this constant martyr syndrome, as if Christians were somehow the DR> most discriminated-against group in the country. Well christians aren't allowed to use government to promote their religion. This is the most burdensome repression of them all. This amendment will end this repression so that Christians can recieve public funds to convert the poor and more importantly it will allow christians to use public places as conversion sites. We have a Christian Heritage. The first europeans to arrive claimed this land for God (and their Kings). With this heritage and tradition only Christians should have these "special Rights" because only they have both a single God & historical claims of heritage. Christians deserve this special treatment. In many other countrys the state affords special rights to certain religions. Iran is a prime example. We should only be as great as them someday. [SATIRE MODE OFF] ... You don't really think you will win, do you? ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAEDALUS RISING To: Sandman Subject: Re: Amendment Date: Tue May 13 17:45:03 CDT 1997 Message number: 158 Reply to message number: 157 S> Supreme Court Justice Sandman would read this amendment and S> conclude that Baal character is not God. S> A god, but not God. You shall pay for that mistake, Sir Sandman. Legions of Baal-ites are, at this moment, circling in for the kill. It will not be a quick death. While your arms roast over an open flame, Baal's minions will slowly peel away your outer scalp, exposing the soft squishy tissue within. As your heart slows and yoru mind races, you will learn the true meaning of pain. Hope you sleep well tonight! S> Now you could seek protection under the 1st Amendment to have your S> religious practices, but under this amendment only mono-theists who S> have claims of heritage or tradition will have these "Super Rights" S> to acknowledge/promote their God. Why not just do away with that silly Bill of Rights and replace it with the Lord's Prayer? it's easier to memorize, and looks fabulous on a postcard. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: DAEDALUS RISING Subject: Re: Amendment Date: Wed May 14 21:02:18 CDT 1997 Message number: 159 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Daedalus Rising to Sandman <=- S> Supreme Court Justice Sandman would read this amendment and S> conclude that Baal character is not God. S> A god, but not God. DR> You shall pay for that mistake, Sir Sandman. Legions of Baal-ites DR> are, at this moment, circling in for the kill. Wow. These Baal-ites sound just like christians. DR> It will not be a quick death. While your arms roast over an open DR> flame, Baal's minions will slowly peel away your outer scalp, exposing DR> the soft squishy tissue within. As your heart slows and yoru mind DR> races, you will learn the true meaning of pain. Baal-ite = Christian? Both are zealots. DR> Hope you sleep well tonight! I look forward to the fight! ... G-d wants you to THINK... not THUMP!!! ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SANDMAN To: DAEDALUS RISING Subject: Re: Amendment Date: Wed May 14 21:02:19 CDT 1997 Message number: 160 Reply to message number: unavailable -=> Quoting Daedalus Rising to Sandman <=- S> Now you could seek protection under the 1st Amendment to have your S> religious practices, but under this amendment only mono-theists who S> have claims of heritage or tradition will have these "Super Rights" S> to acknowledge/promote their God. DR> Why not just do away with that silly Bill of Rights and replace it DR> with the Lord's Prayer? it's easier to memorize, and looks fabulous on DR> a postcard. No not this Lord's Prayer. I have heard in the past that the Bill of Rights are based upon the Ten Commandments. (more of this christian heritage). If this is true (revised history) we should replace the Bill of Rights with the Ten Commandments. We could then go to work repressing freedom. ... Deja Mooo.... knowing you've heard this bull before... ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: All Subject: D:\FILE\PAGNET.ZIP Date: Thu Jun 05 14:29:03 CDT 1997 Message number: 161 Reply to message number: unavailable Well, since so many people are bringing back the underground scene in the 612. I figure since New Moon Rising went down due to Shadow so caught up in his newsletter (PaganInk - Magus and wherever else you buy magick books), I would start a puter zine.. I still owe paganInk an article which will be included n the first issue of this new zine.. Well, good luck to FoS with their zine, Fatal Error, and Big T, you still make one anywayz man? Also, Big Teebo, if you are interested in PaganNet again, I am bringing it back. =) haha. So many people wonder where I went off fidonet cause so many off this 800# bbs that had the network (pagannet) wanted their bbs to be with pagannet. So, big t. Hope you are interested. btw.. I think I uploaded the file.. if not here it is.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: All Subject: MARCH IN DC Date: Fri Jun 13 17:02:44 CDT 1997 Message number: 162 Reply to message number: unavailable Date: 9:36 pm Thu Jun 12, 1997 Number : 1 of 1 From: Devious Base : Pagan Meetings, Marches (Psg, To : All Refer #: None Subj: Washington DC March - Samhain! Replies: None Stat: Sent Origin : Local BLESSED BE & MEET ME IN DC Samhain 1997 (Friday, Oct 31st to Sat Nov 1st) This is a chance of a lifetime to let our nation know that We Are Everywhere! Our message to the world is that we are Peaceful, Loving and Care about what happens to Us and our Mother Earth. To take part in this momentus occasion, all you have to do is: * Show up in Washington, DC on Samhain. You'll need to make your own travel and hotel accomodations. Contact your regional rep for more information (see address below). * Bring one can or more cans of non-persishable food for donation to a Wash DC food bank. * Wear the Color Green - after whatever fashion you deem appropriate! * Bring one or more flowers, can be real or silk for each person you know who was unable to attend the gathering because they can't afford to be "out", or who has suffered harrassment and/or discrimination because they are pagan, or can't afford it period! The flowers will be turned into bouquets and will be distributed to children's hospitals, veteran hospitals, etc.- wherever they can brighten someone's day! * Clean up DC by picking up litter where you see it (can be done as a joint venture with your group or individually). Each person will also be responsible for "proper" disposal of said litter. * Be prepared to express joy, celebrate diversity, share laughter and love with your fellow pagan, non pagans, seekers, humans and any other sentient beings while you are there! For more information or your local contact write us at: BBMMMDC c/o Crystal E. Shadoe 219-P Berlin Rd., Suite 149 Cherry Hill, NJ 08034 Please send a Self Addressed Stamped Envelope for replies! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DEVIOUS To: All Subject: D:\FILE\PAGANNET.002 Date: Fri Jun 13 17:06:24 CDT 1997 Message number: 163 Reply to message number: unavailable By the way, that march is refering to witches, not others, like buddhaism people, etc.. hehe/ mainly Pagans.. It looks for ya. wait, no it is coming at you on all hallows eve! beware! we may sp00k ya to death. Hey, you know what those double zeros look like. hehe. I don't even want to say! :) hahaha. damn.. tryp.. okay, are you done yet teebo? oh well, he isn't damnit. we need de' net up soon, I have like 20 or less messages waiting on my end for you! :) hehehe. give me board a call, PLEASE when you are done Teebo! Ya gotz de number.. oh here is the nodelist as well *NO ONE ELSE DOWNLOAD THIS UNLESS YOU WANT TO JOIN OUR COOL NETWORK*#$#!@$